Sterilization followed by confession?

[crazzeto]

I’ll answer that one. To have 2 beautiful girls to raise the best we can. To grow old together. To be with my best friend until death. To become grandparents someday. It’s not all about fertility lol!! If that was the case why do elderly beyond the age of menopause marry? Why do infertile people marry??

Again, all of this very much allows for argumentation for homosexual marriage, because it fails to address the underlying issue. Marriage is to be ordered towards procreation.

With regard to infertile people, they are allowed to marry because the Church allows for the possibility the break through fertility could (and in fact it can) happen. On this basis, an “infertile” couple can marry on the possibilty that following chaste sexual relations they might yet still be given a child by God.

The Church does not allow marriage in the case of radical physical damage, such as castration or (I beleive) an otherwise phsyical inability to engage in and complete the marital act “normally”. This is canonical law, you can look it up. The reasoning is because of the nature of marriage, it is ordered towards procreation.

 

[ddarko]

Ok I understand better what you are saying now. Yeah I probably should care about my fertility more. Well I do care about my fertility but probably not in the right sense. I wish I was infertile that would make my life and my marriage so much better. Not that I have a bad marriage my husband loves me and I love him… but to be honest there is definately something lacking I feel. Something we had before. Passion perhaps is the right word. And really I wish I wanted kids or even that my husband wanted kids. If getting pregnant wouldn;t be a total disaster I might find it possible to give all of myself to my spouse. But right now I just can;t do that. So I guess I give none of myself which is probably worse actually…sigh.

Well, there is always NFP. That is temporary abstinence as opposed to total abstinence. But of course, it depends on your situation. Would that not work for you?

Whichever choice you take, keep in mind that you want to do what is morally Good. You also cannot do something morally bad because the end result will be good/less evil. That would still be immoral.

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

Maybe but I admit I donlt trust NFP 96% lol! I mean I know it works well for many people and if I could be sure before hand sure I would talk to my husband and see if he would go for it. Personally I doubt he would and I am sure he would have a big I told you so ready if it failed…

Ok sorry, I didn’t see that someone brought up NFP as a suggestion to you before I wrote my previous post.

But just something to note though, if your husband is going to say “I told you so” if NFP fails, then there is something still wrong. The whole point of NFP is that one is still open to God gifting you with a child.

Always remember the case of the Blessed Virgin Mother. What if when the angel said that she had been chosen to be the mother of God’s son, she said, “No, I am not ready”? We are all ‘hand-maids’ of God. If he blesses you with a child when practicing NFP, you and your husband must be prepared to thank him and accept the gift. That is something you agree to when you receive the sacrament of marriage.

God Bless

 

[Calliso]

Ok sorry, I didn’t see that someone brought up NFP as a suggestion to you before I wrote my previous post.

But just something to note though, if your husband is going to say “I told you so” if NFP fails, then there is something still wrong. The whole point of NFP is that one is still open to God gifting you with a child.

Always remember the case of the Blessed Virgin Mother. What if when the angel said that she had been chosen to be the mother of God’s son, she said, “No, I am not ready”? We are all ‘hand-maids’ of God. If he blesses you with a child when practicing NFP, you and your husband must be prepared to thank him and accept the gift. That is something you agree to when you receive the sacrament of marriage.

God Bless

Well to be fair I am not 100% sure he would say that. Ok I admit I never remember the part of accepting children in my vows And I should clarify if we were unfortunate enough to get pregnant my husband would accept him or her.

 

[PRmerger]

Used perfectly, withdrawl has a failure rate of only 4%.

Heh.

I don’t think so. If it’s used* perfectly*, withdrawal would have a failure rate of…

0%.

Right?

Isn’t that what “perfectly” means, as applied to wanting to avoid pregnancy?

 

[PRmerger]

The thing is though things arent always that black and white.

This, Calliso, could be applied to any situation, and used to justify *any *behavior, no?

A man could say, when contemplating on cheating on his wife with his high school sweetheart, “I know that adultery is wrong, but sometimes, things aren’t always that black and white…”

Eek!

 

[PRmerger]

Some people have worse marriages following Church teaching.

If their marriages are worse, it’s certainly not because they’re following Church teaching.

Now, of course I am not claiming that every single couple that uses NFP has a wonderful marriage and every single couple that contracepts is in trouble maritally…but I am saying that statistically these are the facts: marriages that use NFP fare much better than marriages that contracept.

 

[Calliso]

This, Calliso, could be applied to any situation, and used to justify *any *behavior, no?

A man could say, when contemplating on cheating on his wife with his high school sweetheart, “I know that adultery is wrong, but sometimes, things aren’t always that black and white…”

Eek!

Well clearly SOME things can be seen in black and white but not all.

 

[joclucsylv]

Again, all of this very much allows for argumentation for homosexual marriage, because it fails to address the underlying issue. Marriage is to be ordered towards procreation.

With regard to infertile people, they are allowed to marry because the Church allows for the possibility the break through fertility could (and in fact it can) happen. On this basis, an “infertile” couple can marry on the possibilty that following chaste sexual relations they might yet still be given a child by God.

The Church does not allow marriage in the case of radical physical damage, such as castration or (I beleive) an otherwise phsyical inability to engage in and complete the marital act “normally”. This is canonical law, you can look it up. The reasoning is because of the nature of marriage, it is ordered towards procreation.

K…I get that. What about the elderly. They often get married and they have no chance of having children.

 

[Corki]

K…I get that. What about the elderly. They often get married and they have no chance of having children.

The only restriction on the elderly is permenent impotence. As long as they can have sex at the time of their marriage (or reasonably expect to) they are being procreative. Procreative and fecund are not the same thing.

 

[joclucsylv]

Ok sorry, I didn’t see that someone brought up NFP as a suggestion to you before I wrote my previous post.

But just something to note though, if your husband is going to say “I told you so” if NFP fails, then there is something still wrong. The whole point of NFP is that one is still open to God gifting you with a child.

Always remember the case of the Blessed Virgin Mother. What if when the angel said that she had been chosen to be the mother of God’s son, she said, “No, I am not ready”? We are all ‘hand-maids’ of God. If he blesses you with a child when practicing NFP, you and your husband must be prepared to thank him and accept the gift. That is something you agree to when you receive the sacrament of marriage.

God Bless

It seems to me true handmaids of God wouldn’t even use NFP. Seriously, making sure an egg isn’t there isn’t being open to life. I will never get this.

 

[Bookcat]

Seriously, making sure an egg isn’t there isn’t being open to life. I will never get this.

Rather your statement should read:

Seriously, making sure an isn’t there is isn’t being “open to life” according to my personal definition which is by the way not the definition that the Catholic Church and Catholic Theology uses.

 

[joclucsylv]

Rather your statement should read:

Seriously, making sure an isn’t there is isn’t being “open to life” according to my personal definition which is by the way not the definition that the Catholic Church and Catholic Theology uses.

Well, we have to understand what we believe don’t you think? It is something I will never rationally understand. Sorry. But taking temp and checking mucous to make sure NO intercourse occurs while fertile is not saying Yes Lord I want a child. That is being closed to life. Don’t you agree??
Hey…now that I have you can you tell me if teaching on birth control is infallible?

 

[sw85]

Well, we have to understand what we believe don’t you think? It is something I will never rationally understand. Sorry. But taking temp and checking mucous to make sure NO intercourse occurs while fertile is not saying Yes Lord I want a child. That is being closed to life. Don’t you agree??
Hey…now that I have you can you tell me if teaching on birth control is infallible?

It is, indeed, not saying “Yes, Lord, I want a child.” But that’s not the point.

The point is to live according to the order God has prescribed us. That order, as far as sexual behavior is concerned, is innately procreative: it’s why men have penises and women vaginas. The good sexual act is therefore innately procreative, even if the particular circumstances are not conducive to it.

 

[joclucsylv]

It is, indeed, not saying “Yes, Lord, I want a child.” But that’s not the point.

The point is to live according to the order God has prescribed us. That order, as far as sexual behavior is, is innately procreative: it’s why men have penises and women vaginas. The good sexual act is therefore innately procreative, even if the particular circumstances are not conducive to it.

Don’t take this offensively, but it sounds to me like you are all brainwashed and not using your common sense. Bottom line is you are telling God you do not want a child. That is the point. NFP or contraception…you are slamming the door in God’s face either way.

BTW…an aide to the pope said that the pope said it was ok for female prostitutes to use condoms as well. Hmmmm. msnbc.msn.com/id/40331930/ns/world_news-europe/t/pope-condoms-ok-women-hiv-too/

 

[PRmerger]

It is something I will never rationally understand.

While understanding is helpful, you are not required to understand everything that you must give assent to.

As Cardinal John Henry Newman stated: one can struggle with a teaching and “may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, without doubting that it admits an answer”.

That is, you have faith in the CC. You know that she’s taught you correctly that God is love, and that God is a Trinity and that Jesus died for your sins and that Mary was ever-virgin and that Hebrews is inspired…so you ought to understand that she is correct about this. Even if you can’t solve the “mathematical problem” of ABC/NFP, you admit that the answer given to you is the correct one. You just haven’t figured out how to get there.

Hey…now that I have you can you tell me if teaching on birth control is infallible?

It is infallible. But even if it weren’t you as a Catholic must give religious assent to all the teachings of the Church.

 

[sw85]

Don’t take this offensively, but it sounds to me like you are all brainwashed and not using your common sense. Bottom line is you are telling God you do not want a child. That is the point. NFP or contraception…you are slamming the door in God’s face either way.

BTW…an aide to the pope said that the pope said it was ok for female prostitutes to use condoms as well. Hmmmm. msnbc.msn.com/id/40331930/ns/world_news-europe/t/pope-condoms-ok-women-hiv-too/

How can I be brainwashed when I have yet to even begin RCIA?

Again, intent is irrelevant here; what matters is the objectivity of the act. To have penetrative sex is objectively ordered toward procreation, even if the individual happens to be infertile at the moment or is infertile as a matter of permanent biology. So long as the act points to the possibility of that outcome, it is permissible.

And the article suggests only the evil of contraception use *may *be *mitigated *if the prostitute does so out of love for her client, as a means of avoiding infecting him. It is far from suggesting that it is permissible for them to use condoms, ever.

 

[PRmerger]

Bottom line is you are telling God you do not want a child.

Let me tell ask you this, jocluc: right now, when I am typing at my computer, am i telling God I do not want a child?

Hopefully, you’ll provide the rational answer: no, PR, you are not telling God you don’t want a child. You are simply doing something that does not have the chance or producing a child.

Similarly, when a couple is engaging in the marital act at a time when it does not have the chance of producing a child they, also, are not telling God they don’t want a child.

 

[joclucsylv]

Let me tell ask you this, jocluc: right now, when I am typing at my computer, am i telling God I do not want a child?

Hopefully, you’ll provide the rational answer: no, PR, you are not telling God you don’t want a child. You are simply doing something that does not have the chance or producing a child.

Similarly, when a couple is engaging in the marital act at a time when it does not have the chance of producing a child they, also, are not telling God they don’t want a child.

Truly doesn’t make sense.

NFP=doing something that does not have the chance of producing child
ABC=doing soomething that does not have chance of producing child.

I guess this going back and forth is pointless for me. Thank you for trying. Keep me in your prayers.

 

[PRmerger]

Truly doesn’t make sense.

NFP=doing something that does not have the chance of producing child
ABC=doing soomething that does not have chance of producing child.

I guess this going back and forth is pointless for me. Thank you for trying. Keep me in your prayers.

Will do. You keep praying yourself. Ask God to help you want to want to understand. Right now I surmise that you don’t *really *want to understand. That’s ok. The first step is asking God to help you “want to want” to understand.

I guarantee you that if you ask the Holy Spirit to give you a docile spirit and wisdom to understand, you will have more clarity.