Stop Blaming Vatican II

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JimR-OCDS said:
Fasting is still encouraged, no less than before Vatican II, but of course not as much as back in the Middle Ages when people only received Holy Communion a couple of times a year.
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I was not comparing to the middle ages but to 1960. In my diocese it is not encouraged. The message every year is “this year, instead of fasting, try instead…”
 
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I grew up in the 1950’s and my parents were devote Catholics.

I didn’t see much difference in how the Church encouraged fasting.

What Vatican II did do, is try to curve the scrupulous from making penances which were extreme.

As it is, even today there are Catholics who practice self-crucifixion on Good Friday. The Church has condemned the practice, but it still goes on.

The purpose of fasting isn’t to make God happy, but to strengthen ourselves spiritually.

In other words it’s more for our own benefit to fast than to make God happy.
 
Crusader13 said:
The section you quoted, when read in its entirety is speaking of the Jews, who with their knowledge of the law are still going to be judged the same as the Gentiles, who are judged according to the nature of what is written on their hearts without the law.
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But it isn’t a benign history lesson. Paul is speaking here as a baptized follower of Christ. The lesson pertains to the difference between the letter and the spirit of the law. As yet were letters circulating from different teachers, but no formal bible or structural Church. Pauls words regarding what is written on the heart by God is relevant to us today though.
 
Of course, I don’t disagree with you. There are elements that are relevant today in certain contexts. Yet, Paul is pretty clear what he wants us to do when we hear a different Gospel being preached.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.
Galatians 1:6-10
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There are many religions that teach different views about God and salvation. Some are very anti-Catholicism and anti Jesus.

Which always brings us back to the same question; why are we commanded to make disciples of all nations, if people still have the opportunity to attain Heaven outside of a belief in Jesus and baptism?

It’s because of passages like the one above. People in false religions are being kept from the truth. We have a moral obligation to ensure that the true Gospel is preached to every person and that false gospels don’t deceive the masses and keep them out of the Kingdom.
 
Crusader13 said:
Which always brings us back to the same question; why are we commanded to make disciples of all nations, if people still have the opportunity to attain Heaven outside of a belief in Jesus and baptism?
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Why do you think we are commanded to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations?
 
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Yes, it is. You can see scandal all throughout history. Start with the Decian persecution where many clergy and laity disavowed the faith.
 
To bring people into the Kingdom of Heaven. Or at least give them the opportunity to hear the good news of Salvation.

Also to stamp out the pagan influences from idols and demonic practices. Many religions have popped up over the centuries, well after the founding of the Catholic Church. Some have faded into obscurity, others continue to grow steadily.

If the teachings of these religions were incorrect and dangerous to the faithful at their inception, then it stands to reason that they still are today. Regardless of whether or not we choose to acknowledge whatever good they proclaim as a religion.
 
Yes there have obviously been horrible sin problems with Church leaders for a long time.
What they didn’t do then, but does happen now, is non-Christian theology and practices happening at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Such as the native American stuff, the aboriginal elders doing their smoke / smudge type rituals, etc.
 
27lw said:
What they didn’t do then, but does happen now, is non-Christian theology and practices happening at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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What about the introduction of the advent wreath into the Mass?
 
So, an indult in 1965. Not directly part of Vatican II, but part of the same age.
Coincidence that this happened in the Vatican II era? Would this have happened in 1955? 1855?
Vatican II emboldened these bishops who wanted to push their progressive ways.
 
MarkRome said:
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27lw:
What they didn’t do then, but does happen now, is non-Christian theology and practices happening at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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What about the introduction of the advent wreath into the Mass?
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When they introduced the Advent wreath, did they say “and we acknowledge the great spirit of the forest”, or whatever?
 
Did you read this article?
Part of this reaction, as J. Wilhelm asserts with regard to modern Catholics’ adverse reaction to the severity of medieval penalties (including capital punishment for heresy), can be attributed to the fact that we live in an age that has “less regard for the purity of the faith”. [3] Many Catholics have simply lost a sense of sin. It does not seem to matter if an overt effete homosexual cleric “camps” it out on the altar while administering heretical rites for an Ash Wednesday service.
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If you shared it to prove only that there were horrible scandals back then, then know that many of us are aware of that. The real issue though is how the reaction due to these scandals was like. None of them were taken as lightly as today. Furthermore, nowdays scandals seem to be more common than back them.

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I think the world is partly the way God wants it. He could intervene more but chooses not to.
 
Would you be upset if a priest said, “Praised be You my Lord through our Sister, Mother Earth who sustains and governs us, producing varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs”?
 
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27lw said:
What they didn’t do then, but does happen now, is non-Christian theology and practices happening at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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But it has happened before and isn’t unique to the post-conciliar church.
 
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