Stop Blaming Vatican II

[27lw]

What specific instances are you talking about?

 

[BornInMarch]

You make a good point about fasting becoming less rigorous, but I think you’re romanticizing the piety of pre-modern Catholics just a little bit.

While some Medieval Lords took lent very seriously and would live on bread and water, the majority of them would still eat luxurious feasts and expensive meals that just happened to not include meat. They’d even make expensive mock eggs out of almond milk and sugar. As for medieval peasants, they couldn’t afford those kinds of luxuries but they’d still get rid of their few luxuries a few days prior to Lent by consuming it all at once - that’s the origin of festivals like Carnival or Mardi Gras.

 

[ReaderT]

While some Medieval Lords took lent very seriously and would live on bread and water, the majority of them would still eat luxurious feasts and expensive meals that just happened to not include meat. They’d even make expensive mock eggs out of almond milk and sugar. As for medieval peasants, they couldn’t afford those kinds of luxuries but they’d still get rid of their few luxuries a few days prior to Lent by consuming it all at once - that’s the origin of festivals like Carnival or Mardi Gras.

I know not every Catholic followed the rules (in medieval times or today), but according to the 1945 Fr. Lasance missal, the rules used to be:

• Vegetarianism throughout Lent
• No meat on (almost) any Friday throughout the year

The friar in the OP says: “The church is declining in some areas, not because of the documents of some council, but because the church has ceased being relevant.” Well, you only become relevant when you can speak to people’s hearts, and you only get that through humility, and you get humility through ascetic and rigorous practices - like fasting and longer services. That’s why I suggested that the RCC may want to adopt more robust regimens.

 

[MarkRome]

So you are saying there was never any non-Christian theology or practices at a Mass prior to Vatican II?

 

[ReaderT]

So you are saying there was never any non-Christian theology or practices at a Mass prior to Vatican II?

I think we can say with certainty that there are maaaaaany more “liturgical abuses” after V2 than before it.

 

[AlNg]

I grew up in the Church in the 1950’s and don’t recall mandated fasting outside of Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

I heard that there was fasting from midnight before Holy Communion which is not in effect now.

If people fasted at other times, it was their own doing, not the Church’s mandate,

I thought that the fast before Communion was mandated?

 

[Anesti33]

MarkRome:

So you are saying there was never any non-Christian theology or practices at a Mass prior to Vatican II?

I think we can say with certainty that there are maaaaaany more “liturgical abuses” after V2 than before it.

No, actually, one look at the rubrics of the 1962 Roman Missal, and any document like De defectibus, and you’ll realize that the opposite is probably true.

 

[MarkRome]

I think we can say with certainty that there are maaaaaany more “liturgical abuses” after V2 than before it.

I think it depends on what you mean by “liturgical abuses”. As far as “non-Christian” theology at Mass, one can certainly point to heresies such as Gnosticism creeping into the Church. Plus, if the Mass is in Latin, the average layperson wouldn’t readily know if any abuses occurred.

 

[ReaderT]

No, actually, one look at the rubrics of the 1962 Roman Missal , and any document like De defectibus , and you’ll realize that the opposite is probably true.

I’ll take a look, but are you saying the abuses were as bad as the clown masses of today?

 

[Anesti33]

You betcha they were!

 

[ReaderT]

ReaderT:

I’ll take a look, but are you saying the abuses were as bad as the clown masses of today?

You betcha they were!

You mean they were as bad as Buddhist chants at funerals / Hindus dancing up Cathedral aisles / Nuns making offering to pagan gods / Giant badly made puppets / Pachamama / Halloween costume liturgy / CLOWNS PARTICIPATING in EUCHARIST CONSECRATION / shirtless priests dancing around / whatever gay thing Father Martin is doing / rock band mass?

I find that hard to believe, to be honest

 

[27lw]

So you are saying there was never any non-Christian theology or practices at a Mass prior to Vatican II?

I really don’t know but I believe that to be the case.
Do you think they were running around doing a smudging ceremony during Mass before 1965?
Like I said - “do you have any examples?”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Fasting after Midnight goes further back than the 1950’s.

It was fasting at least 3 hours before receiving, until Vatican II and now it’s just 1 hour.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

These are all exagerations

As far as the so-called clown Mass which has been part of right-wing rumor, it was actually a Mass celebrated by a priest who served the Circus Catholics. He did not dress as a clown during the celebration of the Mass, but put a clown nose on before the dismissal as a sign of solidarity with the clowns and circus people in attendance.

The Pachamana was not at Mass, but a separate celebration for the people in attendance at the week-end event Pope Francis hosted.

 

[27lw]

These are all exagerations

As far as the so-called clown Mass which has been part of right-wing rumor, it was actually a Mass celebrated by a priest who served the Circus Catholics. He did not dress as a clown during the celebration of the Mass, but put a clown nose on before the dismissal as a sign of solidarity with the clowns and circus people in attendance.

The Pachamana was not at Mass, but a separate celebration for the people in attendance at the week-end event Pope Francis hosted.

So everyone acknowledges now that the figurine is in fact pachamama?!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It wasn’t at Mass and it means something entirely different than how pagans worshiped it.

It wasn’t worshiped but acknowledge as part of their culture.

 

[27lw]

There’s much more to clown Mass than just a one-time thing:

The Legitimate Liturgical Function of Clowns - PrayTellBlog

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The blog is incorrect as far as the clown Mass story went.

The only one’s dressed as clowns were the clowns themselves who can not reveal their identification. The priest did not dress as a clown.

 

[commenter]

Not directly part of Vatican II, but part of the same age.
Coincidence that this happened in the Vatican II era? Would this have happened in 1955? 1855?
Vatican II emboldened these bishops who wanted to push their progressive ways.

Remember when you reference 1965, those bishops grew up, were educated under guidelines of Pius X, formation influenced by Benedict 15,
Trained under Pius 11, promoted under Pius 12.

They trained and nominated bishops appointed under the Pope’s of the 1960s. You might say that in 1965, and for awhile after, Pius 12 had, in a way, more influence than V2.

It is hard to make a good argument against V2 without hitting Pius 11 and Pius 12, the whole 1940s and 1950s system on all levels, especially seminaries. I don’t blame Pius 12, he had ww2 and Communism to deal with, but a lot of things got postponed and postponed.

V2 finally addressed some of it, imperfectly. V1 was closed out in 1960, to prepare for V2; interrupted by war, V1 had never resumed to finish!

 

[27lw]

So you’re saying there was no larger movement called a “clown ministry”?
Is the blog author lying, or mistaken?