Stop Blaming Vatican II

[MarkRome]

I don’t take any joy in posting this, but it needs to be shown that this is not isolated to one pastor in a red nose.

And this too?

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[27lw]

27lw:

Do you think they were running around doing a smudging ceremony during Mass before 1965?

Probably not. But “they” aren’t “running around” doing them today either.

Like I said - “do you have any examples?”

Youtube and social media are new phenomena, so I can’t pull any up to show you. Seems like there were a lot of abuses in the middle ages that were addressed at Trent. Also, I wouldn’t doubt you’d find examples of elements of Voodoo creeping in, in New Orleans and elsewhere, pre-VII.

Aren’t they running around doing smudging at Mass?

Also, just an FYI, the Council of Trent was about responding to Protestantism. Not responding to any “medieval liturgical abuses”. Although I admit I’m curious as to what you think those might have been.

I’ll be waiting for your evidence of voodoo at Mass pre-Vatican II as well.
@(name removed by moderator) – any thoughts on that? You’re the only person that I know of on CAF who is in Louisiana. @MarkRome is postulating that perhaps voodoo was incorporated into Catholic Mass in New Orleans before Vatican II. That seems extremely unlikely to me, and I’m wondering if you could shed any light on that possibility.

 

[27lw]

ReaderT:

I don’t take any joy in posting this, but it needs to be shown that this is not isolated to one pastor in a red nose.

And this too?

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Wow.
You know what the popes call these men? The strong right arm of the Church.
What are you implying?
You’re not really improving your credibility, in my opinion.

 

[MarkRome]

Aren’t they running around doing smudging at Mass?

Don’t know, although I am no Native American expert. BTW, who are “they”? I don’t see this at my parish. Think about who the audience is.

Have you ever seen a Mass in Africa? That’d really make you uncomfortable. Yet, the inculturation process started before VII.
“For decades before Vatican II, African nations had
already begun the process of inculturation in their diocese. They
did so because the Roman Rite, the Latin based style of worship,
did not suit individuals in African nations. Even following the
promulgations of Sacrosanctum Concilium, African bishops were
not satisfied with liturgical reforms because they were based on
Western culture. Therefore, African bishops were required to
bring a foreign tradition of the Roman Rite and mold it into
worship that their people would understand and relate to.”

(The Implementation of the Second Vatican Council: The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy and Sacrosanctum Concilium by BY AARON FALSETTO)

is postulating that perhaps voodoo was incorporated into Catholic Mass in New Orleans before Vatican II.

I certainly hope that it is not true. But parts of what might be construed as Voodoo (but are just culture, not religious), may have been incorporated much like in Africa as I noted above.

I think a lot of what you might call liturgical abuses or syncretism is really liturgical inculturation. And that happened before VII and was given more prominence after VII.

 

[MarkRome]

What are you implying?

It seems that much of what one thinks is inappropriate during Mass is based on what people are wearing. Clown costumes, Native American dress, etc.

Did they have KoCs in uniform during Mass before Vatican II? It’s a sincere question, I really don’t know.

 

[27lw]

27lw:

What are you implying?

It seems that much of what one thinks is inappropriate during Mass is based on what people are wearing. Clown costumes, Native American dress, etc.

Did they have KoCs in uniform during Mass before Vatican II? It’s a sincere question, I really don’t know.

Not really so much what people are wearing. It’s what they are saying. With their words. Which indicate their thoughts and Who they are worshipping and directing their prayers towards.

Do you see the difference between the Knights of Columbus, which is a Catholic organization, promoting Catholic ideas, charity, Catholic theology, vs. aboriginal groups, which are promoting pre-christian (i.e. “pagan”) / non-Christian ideas and theology?
Do you see the difference in worshipping the spirits of animals, and praising God who made the animals?
This photo appears to be immediately after a Mass. I’m guess that the Knights were in church in their regalia as well. For one example:

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A second example:

1957 Press Photo Knights Columbus mass Basilica Lady - RRW57081 - Historic Images

 

[christofirst]

Here’s a new video from Bishop Barron largely on the topic of Vatican II and those who find fault with or want to disregard aspects of the council. The title references extremism, but much of the talk focuses on the council. Bishop Barron connects the extremism we’re seeing in the relatively small but vocal corners of the Church with the idea of somehow trying to negate the council. He rejects this approach, and with this I agree.

 

[MarkRome]

Do you see the difference between the Knights of Columbus,

I don’t see them wearing plumes in these photos. The one Mass was specifically for KoCs and the other was after the Mass. Any photos of plumes during Mass?

I do think that there is a real presumption happening based on what you see visually regarding Native American dance (cultural) vs. what is actually religious.

I think what is happening is much like how Protestants see a Catholic kneeling and praying in front of a statue and say they are worshiping that statue. I think there’s a real lack of understanding of what is happening and making presumptions based on preconceived ideas.

 

[27lw]

Not sure exactly what the plumes have to do with it. But if you look carefully at this photo, you can see plumes on the hats that are on the floor: in the top left corner of the floor area:

1957 Press Photo Knights Columbus mass Basilica Lady - RRW57081 - Historic Images

 

[MarkRome]

Again, that is a Mass FOR KoCs. Kind of like a Mass for military where they wear their uniforms. Were they part of regular weekly Masses? Did they process in with the priest like they sometimes do post-Vatican II? I don’t know. Part of me has doubts that they did.

 

[ReaderT]

ReaderT:

I don’t take any joy in posting this, but it needs to be shown that this is not isolated to one pastor in a red nose.

And this too?

I don’t know exactly how the Knights function, but if they are anything like Cossacks (solemn defenders of the faith and Christian civilization), then I think the uniforms are fine provided they take off their hats:

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But clowns? Not acceptable anywhere in sacred liturgy.

 

[commenter]

People are going wildly off topic of the thread. Posts should have something to do with the Council.

 

[27lw]

Again, that is a Mass FOR KoCs. Kind of like a Mass for military where they wear their uniforms. Were they part of regular weekly Masses? Did they process in with the priest like they sometimes do post-Vatican II? I don’t know. Part of me has doubts that they did.

I doubt if they were a part of weekly Mass. Probably there were special occasions when they were at Mass. I have seen them at special parish events like Confirmation, First Holy Communion. I remember a pastor telling me about how the Knights were at his First Holy Communion and Confirmation. That would have been about the year 1955, at best estimate.
Not sure what the plumes on KoC hats have to do with liturgy after Vatican II vs before Vatican II.
@commenter wants us to stay on topic.
Maybe there needs to be a new topic about “non-Christian theology at Mass”.

 

[MarkRome]

I doubt if they were a part of weekly Mass.

I am speculating that prior to VII KoCs were not part of the Mass like they sometimes are today. The reason this is relevant is because it appears that those who are against people dressing up and participating in Mass are okay with the KoCs dressing up and participating in Mass. But if they didn’t do that before VII, why is it okay now?

The consistent position for those who blame the council for allowing liturgical inculturation would be that if the KoCs didn’t participate before VII they shouldn’t after VII.

 

[27lw]

27lw:

I doubt if they were a part of weekly Mass.

I am speculating that prior to VII KoCs were not part of the Mass like they sometimes are today. The reason this is relevant is because it appears that those who are against people dressing up and participating in Mass are okay with the KoCs dressing up and participating in Mass. But if they didn’t do that before VII, why is it okay now?

The consistent position for those who blame the council for allowing liturgical inculturation would be that if the KoCs didn’t participate before VII they shouldn’t after VII.

There is no liturgical inculturation with the Knights. They are a Catholic organization.
Again, you are not increasing your credibility here.
Do you know the definition of the term “liturgical inculturation”?
Why would someone apply the term to an organization that is already Catholic? Founded as a Catholic organization? Already full of Catholic culture?

 

[MarkRome]

There is no liturgical inculturation with the Knights. They are a Catholic organization.

Doesn’t matter. I am waiting for you to show that they did participate in Mass as they do today prior to VII.
You aren’t increasing your credibility here.

 

[MarkRome]

then I think the uniforms are fine provided they take off their hats:

I agree. Not to offend any Knight here but I don’t think I am the only one who thinks that the plumes look a bit clownish themselves. I find they do distract from the reverence of the Mass. I am glad they were changed.
Seeing how KoC was an American Catholic organization initially, the uniforms (hats) and such, if worn in the Mass, were part of inculturation when it spread globally.

 

[27lw]

27lw:

There is no liturgical inculturation with the Knights. They are a Catholic organization.

Doesn’t matter. I am waiting for you to show that they did participate in Mass as they do today prior to VII.
You aren’t increasing your credibility here.

Okay. You don’t think it matters that the Knights are a Catholic organization and by definition don’t need to be liturgically inculturated?
I have shown you a photograph that shows Knights in their regalia during a Mass but that is not enough? You want to see video of them processing in, wearing their regalia?

Also, you are impugning something inaccurately about me, and perhaps others here. I am not objecting to people “dressing up” as you say (presumably in aboriginal clothing). I am objecting to people who inject non-Christian content into the Mass. No matter how they are clothed.

 

[MarkRome]

I am objecting to people who inject non-Christian content into the Mass.

Please see my post of liturgical inculturation in Africa above. I noticed that you never responded to that.

 

[27lw]

Could you please give me an actual example of priests including non-Christian content in the Mass in Africa?
In fact I believe Africans are known for being extremely orthodox Catholics. Just one example:

Robert Sarah - Wikipedia