Stop Blaming Vatican II

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JimR-OCDS said:
The laity were excluded from participating in the Mass other than sitting in the pews and following along with their missals, if possible.
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They weren’t excluded. Every pre Vatican II missal and prayer book I own always encouraged the laity to pray the mass.

At some point participation took on the meaning of physically performing some task at Mass.
 
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Yeah, he did.

Ben Shapiro was asking if he, as a Jew was screwed. (His words).

Bp. Barron gave an answer that was directed more towards the question of those who never heard of Jesus. The invincible ignorance approach. He basically side stepped his question and gave an ambiguous reply, giving the impression that as a Jew, Shapiro didn’t need to convert.

Judaism is not salvific. The law cannot save an individual from sin. He didn’t mention any of that.
 
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You need to listen to it again. He NEVER said that Ben didn’t need to convert. Nope, never said it. Ben asked if he, as a Jew, was “screwed” and Bp Baron said “no”. To rephrase the question, are all non-Catholics “screwed”?

He gave a theological answer to a theological question, and he was spot on. That is what the Church teaches and what it has always taught.
 
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He gave a soft hearted, ecumenically friendly, Vatican II response. Lol

But seriously, you’re right, he phrased his response as if the question was pertaining to all non-Catholics. Which is too broad of a generalization.

Ben Shapiro was asking about himself, as a Jew. Knowing full well that Ben Shapiro is not a person that has never heard of Jesus or the Church. That was the context in which Bp. Barron should’ve responded.
 
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Crusader13 said:
Ben Shapiro was asking about himself
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Ben phrased the question as if asking about himself, but already said he doesn’t care about the question but had many people wanting it asked. And that was the context in which Bp Baron responded.
Crusader13 said:
He gave a soft hearted, ecumenically friendly, Vatican II response. Lol
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Yeah, breath fire and brimstone on everyone! That’ll convert 'em! lol
 
Fair enough. I’ll grant you that the question was also on behalf of all other religions as well.

But let’s be honest, Ben Shapiro goes onto qualify his position by listing the laws and values he lives by and promotes. Which in turn would indicate that other faiths believe and teach different views regarding Heaven and salvation.

His question was in reference to what the Church teaches about other religions and who can get into Heaven. Basically, are other religions salvific?

The reply by Bp Barron didn’t start off with proclaiming that Jesus and the Church are necessary. Instead he tells Ben that he’s not screwed because “Vatican II clearly says…”

Well in all fairness, VII says nothing in regards to anyone who merely follows the law and promotes good values, as being part of the non-privileged route to Heaven.

That’s the issue. The short answer is that the Catholic Church may acknowledge the good in other religions, on a temporal level. Salvation, however, is not found outside of Jesus and the Church.

What will happen to every individual non-Catholic upon their death? We don’t know, yet we believe and teach what God says is necessary to enter the Kingdom. It is possible to speak about the errors of other faiths, without condemning the individual.
 
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Yup, it kept the laity separated from active participation in the Mass.

Vatican II fixed that.
 
And the priest would’ve told you to leave instead.

You have no idea why they were dressed as they were.

Reverence comes from the heart.

Regardless, God had them born into the world naked, Jesus could care less how a person is dressed at Mass, providing their heart is open to Him.
 
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JimR-OCDS said:
You have no idea why they were dressed as they were.
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But I do know why - their webpage said it: there’s a group in their church that regularly dresses up as clowns. I provided a link.
JimR-OCDS said:
Jesus could care less how a person is dressed at Mass, providing their heart is open to Him.
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Those who know better should do better. If you walk off the street into a church in a miniskirt, fine. But if you’re a parish member, you have no excuse to dress irreverently.
 
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Crusader13 said:
Salvation, however, is not found outside of Jesus and the Church.
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Amen. That’s what the council taught.
Crusader13 said:
His question was in reference to what the Church teaches about other religions and who can get into Heaven. Basically, are other religions salvific?
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Again, I didn’t hear that as the question. He never asked if other religions are salvific.

You know, when Bp Baron said the Church is the “privileged way”, he was right. It’s not about us being superior to others, like you might think when first hearing it. No, privileged means “having special rights, advantages, or immunities.” In that sense, we, as Catholics have advantages the Jews have, and immunities the Hindus or Protestants have. We have the Sacraments. The road to salvation is a lot harder without these advantages.
You can pick apart what he said all day long and say he should have said this or that but at the end of the day, his response was orthodox.
 
FYI, only the priest can tell people to remove themselves from the Mass.

A layperson has no authority to tell anyone who can and can not attend Mass
 
What you’re implying and what others seem to think that VII is also implying, is that other religions, although not salvific, can aid in helping their followers attain salvation.

If, using your words, we have graces that others do not, salvation is not impossible for them, just harder. That conflicts with Scripture and what the Church has always taught.

How can one attain Salvation, apart from a belief in Jesus and baptism? No amount of good works and following your conscience is sufficient.

This is precisely why Jesus never talks about attaining Salvation outside of Himself. Yes, God can save whomever He chooses without holding them bound to the sacraments, but there is a reason why we aren’t told who qualifies and how it applies to those who willingly choose not to believe.

Our concern is with telling others by what means we must be saved, not the exceptions to the rule.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Yup, it kept the laity separated from active participation in the Mass.

Vatican II fixed that.
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Oh. I’m confused - was something stopping them from participating? Because by the word “participating” that includes prayer, following along with the liturgy, making the responses, receiving Communion.
Doesn’t it?

To what end? Is the Mass more efficacious? Has it staunched the flow of Catholics out of the Church?
Has the fact that laity are up in the sanctuary created more saints?
Are people more holy?
If so, then great.
 
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Lol I don’t disagree there.

I truly believe there are people that have had impediments preventing them from embracing Catholicism and even God in general. Victims of sexual abuse for example, especially at the hands of a clergy member. Yet, Scripture speaks about what happens to those who cause others to stumble and lose faith, especially for the children.

If these individuals are going to be held accountable for causing others to lose faith, it stands to reason that other religions who lead others from Christ aren’t going to fare as well either.

Basically there other faiths and people telling us as Catholics, “you can be a good person, a loving spouse, give to your community, care for the environment, make the world a better place and still believe in God if you wish; all without believing in Jesus or by being a Catholic and still get to Heaven.”

And the responses I’m hearing from supporters of VII are in agreement, saying, that’s true and God can save them all. If that’s true, then WHY DO WE EVEN NEED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?
 
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