Stop Blaming Vatican II

  • Thread starter Thread starter MarkRome
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So you don’t know. That’s ok. You made a claim now give me the facts and compare them to today.
 
Crusader13 said:
WHY DO WE EVEN NEED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?
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While not certain either way when it comes yo salvation, Catholics receive graces through the Sacraments, and God may use our prayers to give graces to non Catholics.
 
They could read along, and that was it

Could they serve as readers, EMHC’s ? No!

The Permanent Diaconate wasn’t even reestablished before Vatican II.
 
I never said anything definitively so if I run across something I will let you know. Again, if I find anything, it most likely would be just cultural which could be misconstrued as Voodoo religion.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
They could read along, and that was it

Could they serve as readers, EMHC’s ? No!

The Permanent Diaconate wasn’t even reestablished before Vatican II.
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What?! They couldn’t pray? They couldn’t take Communion? Young men couldn’t serve as altar servers?
So what about serving as readers and EMHC?
Have those two functions of laypeople improved the Church? What is your proof?
 
MarkRome said:
I never said anything definitively so if I run across something I will let you know. Again, if I find anything, it most likely would be just cultural which could be misconstrued as Voodoo religion.
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The mind boggles that you think there was some use of voodoo culture in Masses in New Orleans before Vatican II.
 
27lw said:
The mind boggles that you think there was some use of voodoo culture in Masses in New Orleans before Vatican II.
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Maybe it boggles your mind, but if African liturgical inculturation happened pre-VII, so it could happen in New Orleans.
 
It’s obvious you don’t know what that parish’s so-called “Clown Ministry” does.

They visit people in nursing homes and children in hospitals giving them some joy and happiness. See the link;

https://holyfamilyhebron.org/holy-family/ministries/caring-clown-ministry.html

They’re not at every Mass and what Mass they were at in the pic, I have no idea.

Perhaps it was a special Mass for the ministry itself before they went out to do their ministering to the sick and elderly ?
 
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Pray outside of the Mass ? Yeah, many did that, prayed the Rosary mostly

Others just ended up daydreaming until it was time to stand, sit or receive Holy Communion

Vatican II knew the liturgy had to change, and they changed it, despite those today who are upset over it.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
They visit people in nursing homes and children in hospitals giving them some joy and happiness. See the link;
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Wonderful. God bless them. I’d gladly buy them noses and makeup; they’re doing great work … in the hospitals. Their costumes don’t belong in a sacred liturgy.

Alright, that’s my last post on this issue.
 
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Still not understanding the connection between VII and clowns. I have read the VII documents - clowns were not mentioned.
 
ReaderT said:
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JimR-OCDS:
They visit people in nursing homes and children in hospitals giving them some joy and happiness. See the link;
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Wonderful. God bless them. I’d gladly buy them noses and makeup; they’re doing great work - in the hospitals. Their costumes don’t belong in a sacred liturgy.
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It gives one pause to imagine what the indigenous must have thought of these pale faced worshippers dressed in flowing gowns and colorful crowns bowing down to golden boxes with shiny utensils speaking what to them was unrecognizable noises.
 
Oh, I have. The Church is growing all the time, from within and without. Tremendous growth. I am one of those converts. Over a billion Catholics in the world and guess what? Not a one of this billion was alive 150 years ago. So, it’s time to stop looking in the rearview mirror and see God’s work in the Church today!
 
I think I responded to this already. Either in this thread or another. Those passages aren’t referring to what you’re implying. You have to read chapters 1 & 3 as well, in full context.

Basically the Jews are boasting that they have the law and are safe from judgement, unlike the Gentiles, who don’t have the law. Paul is telling them, that they will be judged under the law and the Gentiles will be judged based on what was in their hearts, apart from the law.

Meaning the Jews are not safe under the law and the Gentiles are not safe in their ignorance of the law. Because they are both under the pain of sin. The law doesn’t save them, it only identified what sin was. So the Jews are under more scrutiny because they had the law, and still broke the covenant.

So in chapter 3 Paul tells them that both Jews and Gentiles are under the power of sin. And no person is justified by their works of the law.

Instead it is only through Christ that we are saved and there is no more distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

So no, non-Christians are not saved by the law or their conscience or anything outside of a faith in Christ and being part of the Kingdom. Paul makes this explicitly clear!
 
Crusader13 said:
Paul is telling them, that they will be judged under the law and the Gentiles will be judged based on what was in their hearts, apart from the law.
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That was a very Protestant sounding reply. That is not what Paul is saying here. In fact, back up one verse and Paul says, “For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Let alone look at what Christ said in Matthew 19:17, “if you want to enter eternal life, keep the commandments.”

In Romans, the Jews were boasting that God had given THEM the law and only they were able to be saved because of that. Paul is saying that the Gentiles also had the law - but it was written on their hearts. They were keeping the natural law, with the help of God’s grace. Both had faith, kept the law, and will be saved. Do you think nobody was saved before Jesus? Here’s a hint. There were both Jews and Gentiles who are saved prior to Christ. They didn’t know Christ, but they had faith in God, they followed the law, the kept the commandments, weren’t just hearers. Gentiles too. They had faith, kept the law written on their hearts, didn’t know Jesus, and they will also be saved.

And, I never said the Gentile or Jew is saved by the law apart from Christ. Christ is the only one who saves. And faith is necessary. But those who have not known Christ and could not have known him and do not reject Him, they would have no sin (John 15:22).
 
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So, no one was saved prior to Christ? David, Moses, Noah, Abraham, all destined to hell?
 
MarkRome said:
In Romans, the Jews were boasting that God had given THEM the law and only they were able to be saved because of that. Paul is saying that the Gentiles also had the law - but it was written on their hearts.
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Yes. That’s what I said above.
MarkRome said:
They had faith, kept the law written on their hearts, didn’t know Jesus, and they will also be saved.
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Will be?? As in a still future sense? They are saved when they accept Christ and baptism. That’s the biggest caveat. That’s what Jesus was trying to do and that’s why the apostles preached to the Jews first and then the Gentile nations. After the coming judgment in 70 AD, they would no longer have the opportunity. As we know the, Jewish Hierarchy rejected Jesus, thus sealing their fate.

Yes, under the old covenant, those who died, by being doers of the law were still in Abraham’s bosom. But by being doers of the law, they didn’t transgress the covenant and they looked forward to day when the messiah would come and save Israel from her sin.

It was only through Jesus that both Jews and Gentiles would be saved, because the old covenant was passing away.
 
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