Stop Blaming Vatican II

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There was as far as the priests who served the circus people, as they were a traveling group.

However, most of that disbanded and the local dioceses where the circus traveled to would provide a priest to serve them while they were in town.
 
Even if the bishops had these tendencies, they didn’t act until after Vatican II, eh? So something changed. The whole climate of the Church. Cuz they opened the windows and everything…🤣
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It wasn’t at Mass and it means something entirely different than how pagans worshiped it.

It wasn’t worshiped but acknowledge as part of their culture.
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“Here, we’re going to acknowledge this object of pagan worship. No, we won’t include the pacha mama at Mass, but we’ll have this weird bowl of dirt to substitute.”


 
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27lw said:
Do you think they were running around doing a smudging ceremony during Mass before 1965?
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Probably not. But “they” aren’t “running around” doing them today either.
27lw said:
Like I said - “do you have any examples?”
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Youtube and social media are new phenomena, so I can’t pull any up to show you. Seems like there were a lot of abuses in the middle ages that were addressed at Trent. Also, I wouldn’t doubt you’d find examples of elements of Voodoo creeping in, in New Orleans and elsewhere, pre-VII.
 
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MarkRome said:
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27lw:
Do you think they were running around doing a smudging ceremony during Mass before 1965?
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Probably not. But “they” aren’t “running around” doing them today either.
27lw said:
Like I said - “do you have any examples?”
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Youtube and social media are new phenomena, so I can’t pull any up to show you. Seems like there were a lot of abuses in the middle ages that were addressed at Trent. Also, I wouldn’t doubt you’d find examples of elements of Voodoo creeping in, in New Orleans and elsewhere, pre-VII.
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Hmmm. Voodoo in a pre-Vatican II Mass? You really think that happened?
 
27lw said:
Hmmm. Voodoo in a pre-Vatican II Mass? You really think that happened?
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I am saying that it is highly possible if you know anything about Catholicism and Voodoo in New Orleans. Ever hear of Marie Laveau? Lot’s of mixing Catholicism and Voodoo in New Orleans.
 
MarkRome said:
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27lw:
Hmmm. Voodoo in a pre-Vatican II Mass? You really think that happened?
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I am saying that it is highly possible if you know anything about Catholicism and Voodoo in New Orleans. Ever hear of Marie Laveau? Lot’s of mixing Catholicism and Voodoo in New Orleans.
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Among the people’s beliefs, perhaps.
I find that almost laughable that you think that Catholic priests would somehow be mixing or practicing voodoo at a Catholic Mass, pre-Vatican II. Maybe you have information that would enlighten me. I’d like to see it if you do.
 
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Lobster_Johnson said:
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PaulinVA:
Confessions are not widely attended.
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Confession might be more popular if it weren’t offered from 3:41-3:54PM every other Saturday in the janitor’s closet.

I’m exaggerating, of course, but the Church hasn’t done a good job of promoting or offering confession. I live within walking distance of three Catholic churches, and I need to drive out of town to get to Confession at a reasonable time.
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While for obvious reasons, it would be great if priests regularly heard confessions right BEFORE a Mass, I never have known any priest who has refused to hear a confession AFTER the conclusion of a Mass.

If the small time slot when confessions are offered on Saturdays isn’t convenient for you, you might want to ask a priest to hear your confession after a Mass, be it a daily Mass or a Sunday Mass.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
As far as the so-called clown Mass which has been part of right-wing rumor, it was actually a Mass celebrated by a priest who served the Circus Catholics. He did not dress as a clown during the celebration of the Mass, but put a clown nose on before the dismissal as a sign of solidarity with the clowns and circus people in attendance.
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As 27lw noted, there have been many clown masses - you can Youtube “liturgical abuse” and see several, including one where clowns are present for the consecration. It’s not just “the priest put on a clown nose at the end” at one Mass, one time. I’d post the video, but I did that another time on CAF and it was taken down.
JimR-OCDS said:
These are all exagerations
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I’m not a frequent Mass attendee (because I’m not Catholic) but one of the times I did go, I remember the priest flying a Spiderman kite down the center aisle during his homily. I don’t remember what the significance was. These sorts of things happen everywhere; it’s not just exaggerations.
 
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Yeah I saw this all before and has nothing to do with the event at the Pope’s event
 
It was probably taken down because it wasn’t true

Also, the priest using the kite to teach a lesson that is connected to the gospel is not prohibited.

One time the former pastor at my parish, was given a Teenage Ninja Turtle mask, a little kid had made. The pastor used the mask in his homely which connected to the Gospel.

He did a good job of it
 
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Yes, that would be a fast, even one hour

However, I was thinking fast as on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
 
MarkRome said:
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27lw:
Maybe you have information that would enlighten me. I’d like to see it if you do.
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Would you stop blaming VII if I do?
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Tiny smile.
If you can present me with information that Catholic priests were incorporating voodoo into Masses pre-Vatican II, I will seriously overhaul my opinion of the Church, pre and post Vatican II.
 
27lw said:
Yes there have obviously been horrible sin problems with Church leaders for a long time.
What they didn’t do then, but does happen now, is non-Christian theology and practices happening at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Such as the native American stuff, the aboriginal elders doing their smoke / smudge type rituals, etc.
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Pope John Paul ii made this observation in “Crossing the Threshold of Hope”.

"At this point, it seems opportune to recall all the primitive religions, the Animist type of religion, which puts first emphasis on the worship of their ancestors. It seems that those who practice it are particularly close to Christianity. Among them the missionaries of the Church more easily find a common language.

Is there, perhaps, in this veneration of the ancestors a kind of preparation for the Christian belief in the communion of saints, wherein all believers - whether living or dead - form a single community, a single body? Faith in the communion of the saints is, ultimately, faith in Christ, the only source of life and holiness for all.

There is nothing strange, then, in the fact that the African and Asian animists would become confessors of Christ more easily than followers of the great religions of the Far East."

The New Testament doesn’t have the same condemnation of indigenous religions that the OT does and when Christianity began with a mixture of Jews and Gentiles, there was naturally a recognition that the truth about God are written on the heart. So it’s not that surprising that indigenous Americans or Australians practices are reflecting truths written on the heart.

In fact, the respect for the earth and plants and animals as gifts to us from the Creator has lost meaning in modern western culture and I think it’s something that indigenous culture could help us regain. If we respected the earth in the way Scripture does “For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” Romans 1:20 I’m quite sure that we would better live our faith and be more credible to oppose abortion and other assaults on human dignity.
 
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JimR-OCDS said:
It was probably taken down because it wasn’t true
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There is no evidence of that, but like I said, there are multiple videos of multiple masses.

Here is a picture from Missouri in 2004, St. James the Greater parish in St. Louis:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Here is another at Holy Name of Jesus parish (Florida):
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I don’t take any joy in posting this, but it needs to be shown that this is not isolated to one pastor in a red nose.
 
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As so do I and probably other Catholics.

It’s pretty bad…
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I can’t speak for everyone but I know that the Christian humanist side of me still doesn’t find these things as abhorrent as the culture of pederasty, pedophilia, fornication, material greed that was happening in the pre Vatican II Church. We know it existed because in 1962 Cdl Ottaviani re established an earlier instruction (Crimen sollicitationis) to clergy effectively excommunicating anyone who reported sexual abuse/rape outside the Church.

Stop Blaming Vatican II
 
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