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thechrismyster
Guest
anyone care for some
goes nicely with whine.
to the OP… nice post.
goes nicely with whine.
to the OP… nice post.
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Walking_Home
Guest
For someone to complain about the complainers–that someone in essence is complaining about:
Vat II:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM
.The designs of altars and tabernacles within Church interiors were often not simply motivated by artistic inspiration but also by a clear understanding of the mystery. The same could be said for sacred music, if we but think of the inspired Gregorian melodies and the many, often great, composers who sought to do justice to the liturgical texts of the Mass.
Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html#Ars_celebrandi
Liturgical song
Vat II:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
- The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.
vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/__P7.HTM
.The designs of altars and tabernacles within Church interiors were often not simply motivated by artistic inspiration but also by a clear understanding of the mystery. The same could be said for sacred music, if we but think of the inspired Gregorian melodies and the many, often great, composers who sought to do justice to the liturgical texts of the Mass.
Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html#Ars_celebrandi
Liturgical song
- Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).
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VociMike
Guest
If you have evidence that liturgical music was a constant source of complaint and dispute among the faithful in those periods, I will be happy to view your evidence.
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Now, I would never complain about that.
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RiverRock
Guest
I guess Cat and others know best over the Church. Alright everyone, all together now…“If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands!” CLAP CLAP…
Why not Barney?.. I love you, you love me, were a happy fam-i-ly, with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you, won’t you say you love me tooooooooo?..sounds liturgically correct… and it’s got a catchy melody. Why the possibilities are endless.
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otjm
Guest
I have hear all sorts of excuses for why people leave the Catholic Church. Truly, if someone would leave the Eucharist because of the music, I would have to question why they were there in the first place.
It is like saying that you will starve rather than eat, simply because you have rancid margerine rather than fresh butter.
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otjm
Guest
Ah yes, from the sublime to the ridiculous, as if that were the sum of the issue.
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az_4_faith
Guest
I ain’t got my dictionary turned on so I don’t know what the big words mean.
Just this morning, we were a singin’ “Bless us, Oh Lord, make us poor in spirit, bless us Oh Lord our God, etc.etc. We are the light of the world, make our light shine before all, etc,etc,”.
That one doesn’t get to the part about worshipping God until we’ve finished patting ourselves on the back.
I guess if I’m gonna have to make a list, I’ll astart with that one.
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RiverRock
Guest
Otjm, if you had read my posts on the previous thread, you would see that I wasn’t being ridiculous at all. Oh, and I don’t go to Mass for the music, but when it doesn’t fit well with what we are there to do, it’s disconcerting–and distracting. I’m the first one to agree that it’s not at all about entertainment, otherwise I would be protestant and pick a great mega-entertainment churchatorium.
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otjm
Guest
and you have evidence that liturgical music is a constant source of complaint and dispute among the faithful now?
I can remember “Mother dear of pray for me”; and I thought then it was an insult to Mary; and that little ditty was pre V2.
But “constant source” I think is a bit over the edge. There is a contingent who gripes, snears, kvetches and bellyaches if it is not Palistrina in perfect 4 part harmony, or Gregorian Chant echoing down 2 block long cathedrals complete with flying butresses and 30 foot stained glass windows. But the contingent is small, way smaller than those who either have no opinion or like current music. They just take themselves so seriously and speak so loudly, and not hearing anyone say otherwise, they presume they speak for the majority.
And yes, if you go back in musical history, particularly liturgical musical history, you will find in various ages that music changed, and when it did, it engendered complaints and disputes among the faithful. Constant source? I don’t think it was any more so then than it is now, and no less. There are always those who doesn’t like change, and those who think the other way was better.
Sorry, I believe that the adage “he who sings, prays twice” is still true; I don’t go to Mass to hear a concert of ancient music. I love Gregorian chant, and abhor it being slaughtered by those who can’t sing it; and only trained musicians can sing it well. Believe me, I have heard the local Trappist Abbey, who used to do really well at chant, go down hill miserably.
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otjm
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paramedicgirl
Guest
You might like this too, then:
Every Move I Make by David Ruis
©1996 Mercy/Vineyard Songs Canada
(Admin by Music Services)
Every move I make I make in you, you make me move, Jesus. Every breath I take I breathe in You.
Every step I take I take in you, you are my way Jesus.
Every breath I take I breathe in You.
Waves of mercy, waves of grace. Everywhere I look, I see your face. Your love has captured me. Oh, my God, this love, how can it be.
Sounds like a three year old wrote it. Give me “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” any time over this insipid nonsense.
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RiverRock
Guest
Well, paramedic girl, welcome to this side of snob hill!!! At least I’m not alone.
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Teeliumtrozzle
Guest
I agree with Cat.All hymns are good as long as they praise and glorify God!I it doesnt matter about the style! Gregorian chant, classical Hymns, rock style- ITS ALL GOOD AS LONG AS IT PRAISES GOD:yup: :yup:
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st_raphael
Guest
http://bestsmileys.com/notlistening/2.gif
Ah yes how right you are. The traditionalist group is sooooo predictable.
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Cat
Guest
I’m sad that several of you seemed to have missed #11 in my initial posts.
Please go back and read it again. I have NOT said anything against Gregorian chant and other traditional forms of music. I would appreciate it if you didn’t make me out to be a reprobate.
And never have I said that it’s OK to use Barney songs in Mass. Please, I beg you, don’t dress me up like a villainess. It’s not right to post phrases and attribute them to me. It’s slander, which is a form of lying.
Please, be kinder.
I’ve read several Catholic histories of music over the last few weeks while I’ve been convalescing (surgery), and with all due respect, I think some of you are quoting selectively to make it look like only chant and polyphony are allowed and all other forms and styles of music are forbidden.
This is simply not true. I don’t have the time right now to provide quotes, but perhaps some of the rest of you can. When I return from work (half-day), I’ll get back to this, if the thread hasn’t been shut down by then due to meanness.
Also, those history books made it clear that throughout the ages, from the very beginning of the Catholic church during the First Century, people have been complaining about the music in church. The first major controversy was whether it was appropriate to use instruments in church. Instruments were considered “pagan,” so the general consensus was, “No instruments in church.” But the Old Testament makes it clear that instruments can be used in an assembly of God’s people. So others used instruments.
Another big controversy was women singing in church. For the first three centuries, women sang along with the men. Then this practice was eliminated and only men sang. Then women got to sing again.
The list goes on and on. Every time a new musical style developed, it was questioned by the Church. Now I’m not sure from the history texts if this means that the laypeople questioned it or the clergy–I assume the clergy, but I don’t know.
Almost every time, the new style of music was eventually incorporated in to the liturgy.
Almost every papacy seems to have inititiaed some kind of “study” of music in the church.
So yes, complaints have been the rule since the Church started.
Whew–I can’t believe how many people are willing to defend complaining. It’s kind of scary. NOW WAIT–I DID NOT SAY that you should accept true liturgical abuse. DON’T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I’m talking about the complaining like “That song is so babyish, a child could have written it.”
Maybe a child did. Have you ever thought about that? So what’s wrong with the kid’s music? Sure, not constantly. But once in while, it’s good to remember that our Lord came to earth as a little, helpless BABY. It’s GOOD to remember that, and maybe these childish songs that you hate so much will remind you of that mystery.
Please go back and read it again. I have NOT said anything against Gregorian chant and other traditional forms of music. I would appreciate it if you didn’t make me out to be a reprobate.
And never have I said that it’s OK to use Barney songs in Mass. Please, I beg you, don’t dress me up like a villainess. It’s not right to post phrases and attribute them to me. It’s slander, which is a form of lying.
Please, be kinder.
I’ve read several Catholic histories of music over the last few weeks while I’ve been convalescing (surgery), and with all due respect, I think some of you are quoting selectively to make it look like only chant and polyphony are allowed and all other forms and styles of music are forbidden.
This is simply not true. I don’t have the time right now to provide quotes, but perhaps some of the rest of you can. When I return from work (half-day), I’ll get back to this, if the thread hasn’t been shut down by then due to meanness.
Also, those history books made it clear that throughout the ages, from the very beginning of the Catholic church during the First Century, people have been complaining about the music in church. The first major controversy was whether it was appropriate to use instruments in church. Instruments were considered “pagan,” so the general consensus was, “No instruments in church.” But the Old Testament makes it clear that instruments can be used in an assembly of God’s people. So others used instruments.
Another big controversy was women singing in church. For the first three centuries, women sang along with the men. Then this practice was eliminated and only men sang. Then women got to sing again.
The list goes on and on. Every time a new musical style developed, it was questioned by the Church. Now I’m not sure from the history texts if this means that the laypeople questioned it or the clergy–I assume the clergy, but I don’t know.
Almost every time, the new style of music was eventually incorporated in to the liturgy.
Almost every papacy seems to have inititiaed some kind of “study” of music in the church.
So yes, complaints have been the rule since the Church started.
Whew–I can’t believe how many people are willing to defend complaining. It’s kind of scary. NOW WAIT–I DID NOT SAY that you should accept true liturgical abuse. DON’T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I’m talking about the complaining like “That song is so babyish, a child could have written it.”
Maybe a child did. Have you ever thought about that? So what’s wrong with the kid’s music? Sure, not constantly. But once in while, it’s good to remember that our Lord came to earth as a little, helpless BABY. It’s GOOD to remember that, and maybe these childish songs that you hate so much will remind you of that mystery.
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pumpkinbeast
Guest
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Awesome post! I agree with everything that you said. As you pointed out, liturgical abuses, aka music that has anti-Church teaching lyrics in them(I think that is classified as a liturgical abuse…), etc. should still be stopped, but other than that, get over it, or work to change it yourself.
Awesome post! I agree with everything that you said. As you pointed out, liturgical abuses, aka music that has anti-Church teaching lyrics in them(I think that is classified as a liturgical abuse…), etc. should still be stopped, but other than that, get over it, or work to change it yourself.
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kellyanne
Guest
Wisdom 1:6;11
For wisdom is a KINDLY spirit …
Therefore guard against profitless grumbling, and from calumny withhold your tongues, for a stealthy utterance does not go unpunished…
Cat,
Your post was an excellent reminder. Thank you so much!
For wisdom is a KINDLY spirit …
Therefore guard against profitless grumbling, and from calumny withhold your tongues, for a stealthy utterance does not go unpunished…
Cat,
Your post was an excellent reminder. Thank you so much!
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VociMike
Guest
Yes I do. My wife was a church music director for many years, and she attests to it. Groups like this attest to it. Groups like the “Moratorium on Haugen & Haas” (whatever the exact name is) attest to it. Every pope since Vatican II has attested to it. Next to complaints about liturgical abuses, complaints about music are the second biggest complaint people have about the liturgy (Adoremus poll).
To imagine that liturgical music is not a source of great contention in the Church today is to be ignorant of reality. Good grief, why do you think the OP felt it necessary to start this thread in the first place?
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thechrismyster
Guest
actually, a three year old didn’t write it.
i think a band named the Police wrote it in 1986. Ten years before David penned those crafty lyrics. or shall i say stole.
“Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
Ill be watching you”
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