Stop Complaing about Music in Church.

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I agree with Cat.All hymns are good as long as they praise and glorify God!I it doesnt matter about the style! Gregorian chant, classical Hymns, rock style- ITS ALL GOOD AS LONG AS IT PRAISES GOD:yup: :yup:
I would agree, but there are FAR too many songs that spend more time glorifying the congregation instead of God.

This isn’t a matter of musical style, but rather inspidid, self centered lyrics.

“Gather Us In” is a fine example. All it does is focus on the congregation, and what God can do for us.

Never on us giving God the Praise He is due.
 
That which is received is received according to the mind of the receiver. This old truth really teaches us to see into the heart of the critic, for a pure heart will find beauty everywhere and lift his mind to God. The scrooge sees everything as “bah, humbug!”

There was a song many years ago that went, “The first time ever I saw his face.” One of my most contemplative moments in memory came from listening to this song, for rather than hear the secular, my thoughts soared to my conversion when I first saw HIS face.

It is rather noble of the songwriter to have seen God in all things, as St. Paul teaches, and that he was able to make the transition of the “insipid lyrics” to a moment of grace. Only an oaf would think this was ignoble:

*Waves of mercy, waves of grace. Everywhere I look, I see Your face. *
 
Never on us giving God the Praise He is due.
NEVER? Much like an overblown assertion, there Brendan. Maybe you should find another church. 😉
I would agree, but there are FAR too many songs that spend more time glorifying the congregation instead of God.
It depends on one’s frame of mind how they “hear.” Someone earlier suggested “We are the Light of the World” does the same thing, focuses on the people. How this person missed that the entire hymn is a replay of the beatitudes, tells me (s)he doesn’t recognize scripture. The refrain celebrates Mt. 5:14 that we "let our light shine before men in order that they may see our good works and give glory to God"

In no way does it glorify the people, but maybe some folks are programmed to look for problems. I think that’s the gist of the OP’s thread, to not be so quick to judge, but to develop a sensitivity for God to speak through those lyrics we are accustomed to dislike. A closed whimpering mind will not hear anything from God."
 
That which is received is received according to the mind of the receiver. This old truth really teaches us to see into the heart of the critic, for a pure heart will find beauty everywhere and lift his mind to God. The scrooge sees everything as “bah, humbug!”
Who here sees everything as “bah, humbug”? I’d like to read that person’s posts. Do you have some links?

Oh, and who here finds beauty in the very complaining that some are complaining about? I’d like to read their posts too.
 
Why is there a judgment that those who question a musical piece or practice in the liturgy are** complainers **? Right there you have put a negative spin on those who question anything.

I would like to point out here that the ancient Greeks understood that music was a very, very powerful force which could be used for good and for evil also. I think that in this generation, having grown up with a far greater inundation of music and/or Muzak than has ever been known, we tend to forget the ‘dark side’, if you will, of music.

All things in moderation is a good way to live physically; but the body is only a part. While ‘all things in moderation’ may sound like a good way to live spiritually, what you wind up with is a lukewarm philosophy that pretty much permits you to choose how much you give to God, and to pat yourself on the back for not being one of those ‘extremists’.

Like it or not, music has been made an idol (not just American) and we do like to rationalize away our own preferences. Look, as a musician myself there are certain groups, styles etc. that I enjoy emotionally who are not 100% ‘orthodox’. There are songs that have powerful emotional ties because I remember experiencing them with a loved one, or on a particularly beautiful day, etc. So Cat, I understand where you and Joy and others are going with the “even the music you snobs dislike can lead others to God”. But too many people feed on that ‘emotionalism’. Sure, maybe one hymn makes them think of God–but then they start to think that unless they still have that powerful feeling, they aren’t really ‘experiencing’ God, and so they turn away from the Church and from God, or ‘shop around’ always looking to be brought to the state of highest emotionalism, and calling that “God”.

However, there is a big difference between disliking a style, and noting a problem. Many of the more modern ‘hymns’ do indeed have a place in the liturgy but not to the unfortunately overused or even illicit degree they have in many places–for example, the choirs/cantors who use things like “keep in mind” after the consecration, or who routinely trot out a hymn in place of the responsorial psalm. And while some of the hymns may be banal, that would not necessarily exclude them from occasional use.

What most of us ‘snobs’ object to is not “all hymns since Vatican 2”, but to poorly written, hard to sing, inclusive languged ‘me’ fests. And to a great extent, most of us who write in to object have not been to your Church and are not casting aspersions on your choir or your taste.

In this anti-authority generation, it has become a sort of reverse snobbery to denigrate those who do have experience in an area, and to maintain that those who do not like what 'I" like are snobs themselves. Well, while I acknowledge that experts are only human and as likely to commit error as any other, I respectfully submit that, for example, while your doctor may make a mistake in a diagnosis, he is less likely to make that diagnostic mistake in a patient than your lawyer, or your teacher, or your uncle Herman, or you yourself.

So a musical expert may be wrong about a hymn, or a style. He or she may not be as much of a theologian and so may err when considering that aspect of a hymn. But when you have large numbers of experts who have studied the matter and found areas of problems at the very least, it behooves us to consider well that they might be ‘right’ and that those who downplay or don’t find problems just may be wrong.

When one considers the degree of animosity that comes about as people fly to the defense of songs they ‘love’, or have to deal with defending themselves against charges of being ‘judgmental and complainers’ , it seems obvious that dialogue about music is important and is not to be swept under the rug under the guise of a false ‘unity’ that insists that it’s more important just to ‘sit there’ and let ‘anything goes’ as regards to church liturgy.

Music** is** important and liturgy is important. As with so many other Church teachings, we have to remember that there is a right way and a wrong way, and get out of the modernistic thought that “what is right for me may not be right for you but so long as our end goal is the same we should just live and let live”. . .IMO.
 
I’ve read several Catholic histories of music over the last few weeks while I’ve been convalescing (surgery), and with all due respect, I think some of you are quoting selectively to make it look like only chant and polyphony are allowed and all other forms and styles of music are forbidden.
If I had seen anybody here suggest that I would have been the first to correct them. But I haven’t seen anybody suggest that.
 
Wisdom 1:6;11

For wisdom is a KINDLY spirit …

Therefore guard against profitless grumbling, and from calumny withhold your tongues, for a stealthy utterance does not go unpunished…

Cat,

Your post was an excellent reminder. Thank you so much!

What you have failed to notice is—your use of scripture to cast a negative light on people here—includes in essence going against the mind of the Church. It is the mind of the Church — who has from the time of Vat II to our current Pope–stated what form of music is proper and holds pride of place for our Mass.
 
Music** is** important and liturgy is important. As with so many other Church teachings, we have to remember that there is a right way and a wrong way, and get out of the modernistic thought that “what is right for me may not be right for you but so long as our end goal is the same we should just live and let live”. . .IMO.
Yes, and I wonder if Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, both of whom have called for better, more appropriate and more beautiful liturgical music, would be considered “complainers” as well by some on this forum?
 
NEVER? Much like an overblown assertion, there Brendan. Maybe you should find another church. 😉
Yes, the song NEVER grants praise to God, but instead places the focus on US.

Please point out exactly where Praise is being offered to God.
Here in this place, new light is streaming. Now is the darkness vanished away. See in this place our fears & our dreamings, brought here to you in the light of this day. Gather us in, the lost & forsaken, gather us in the proud & the strong, give us our hearts so meek & so lowly. Give us the courage to enter the song.
In no way does it glorify the people, but maybe some folks are programmed to look for problems. I think that’s the gist of the OP’s thread, to not be so quick to judge, but to develop a sensitivity for God to speak through those lyrics we are accustomed to dislike. ** A closed whimpering mind will not hear anything from God.**"
A Chesterton once said “Merely having an open mind is nothing; the object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”

Haugen does not qualify as “something solid” 😛

Or as George Crain said "You can have such an open mind that
it is too porous to hold a conviction. " 👍
 
I have been an avid reader of the forums, but this will be my first post. I have read many of the discussions about music, being a church musician myself, my husband and I go as a team, he plays piano and I sing. Both for the regular liturgy and for children’s liturgies.
I have to thank you, Cat, for your charity towards us as a group! We do need it. I have been turned off by many a “hymn” or delivery of same, for one reason or another, but I chalk it up to an accursed trained ear that I can’t turn off. But I try to give credit to the poor folks doing the job. I so know what it is like to want to serve the Lord with all my heart using the gift I was given, and so putting ourselves (my husband and I) kind of on the firing line to do so. Because we are trained musicians, we get (very indirectly) the comments about “performance”, and also “they don’t know that one” (because we try to correlate our music as best we can to the Gospel and readings, and do songs from the music issue that were not on the "top ten’ in familiarity for the congregation.)

But, we get more encouragement, sometimes from the most unlikely folks, than criticism,and it means so much to us.Because we are simply wanting to magnify the Lord and provide a means where people can lift up their hearts during the Mass, and nothring else!

To all who “suffer” under music that is “less than” for any reason, I agree with the other posters who encourage action in whatever appropriate form, but really, always remembering St. Paul’s words, "If I speak with the tounges of men and of angels…but I have not love…

To all musicians…do we not work very hard and spend much of our personal time in preparation? And prayer? God knows we do try.

just my:twocents:
 
Yes, and I wonder if Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, both of whom have called for better, more appropriate and more beautiful liturgical music, would be considered “complainers” as well by some on this forum?

Good question. Going by what has been said here against the “complainers”—it all reflects back to – Pope John PauI II and Pope Benedict XVI.
 
People talk as though they have a “right” to “good music.”

No, we don’t.

We don’t have a right to ANYTHING except an eternity in hell. We are sinners.
I do not think that is accurate at all. Catholics have a right to a properly celebrated mass and that includes proper music.

Canon 214 The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescriptions of their own rite approved by the legitimate pastors of the Church, and to follow their own form of spiritual life consonant with the teaching of the Church.

Canon 212
  1. The Christian faithful, conscious of their own responsibility, are bound by Christian obedience to follow what the sacred pastors, as representatives of Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or determine as leaders of the Church.
  2. The Christian faithful are free to make known their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires to the pastors of the Church.
  3. In accord with the knowledge, competence and preeminence which they possess, they have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard for the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration of the common good and dignity of persons.
 
Yes I do. My wife was a church music director for many years, and she attests to it. Groups like this attest to it. Groups like the “Moratorium on Haugen & Haas” (whatever the exact name is) attest to it. Every pope since Vatican II has attested to it. Next to complaints about liturgical abuses, complaints about music are the second biggest complaint people have about the liturgy (Adoremus poll).

To imagine that liturgical music is not a source of great contention in the Church today is to be ignorant of reality. Good grief, why do you think the OP felt it necessary to start this thread in the first place?
Last June the Pope spoke about music in Mass. Here are three paragraphs of the article:

The Pope has demanded an end to electric guitars and modern music in church and a return to traditional choirs. However, the use of guitars and tambourines has irritated the Pope, who loves classical music. “It is possible to modernise holy music,” the Pope said, at a concert conducted by Domenico Bartolucci the director of music at the Sistine Chapel. “But it should not happen outside the traditional path of Gregorian chants or sacred polyphonic choral music.”

he Pope’s supporters argue that the music played during Mass is a vital part of the communion between worshippers and God, and that medieval church music, with the liturgy, creates the correct ambience for perceiving God’s mystery.

Cardinal Ersilio Tonini, the Archbishop of Ravenna, said:“Mass is the presence of Christ and the music adds so much more when the harmony allows the mind to transcend the concrete to the divine.”

Does this make the Pope a “complainer?”
 
Last June the Pope spoke about music in Mass. Here are three paragraphs of the article:

The Pope has demanded an end to electric guitars and modern music in church and a return to traditional choirs. However, the use of guitars and tambourines has irritated the Pope, who loves classical music. “It is possible to modernise holy music,” the Pope said, at a concert conducted by Domenico Bartolucci the director of music at the Sistine Chapel. “But it should not happen outside the traditional path of Gregorian chants or sacred polyphonic choral music.”

he Pope’s supporters argue that the music played during Mass is a vital part of the communion between worshippers and God, and that medieval church music, with the liturgy, creates the correct ambience for perceiving God’s mystery.

Cardinal Ersilio Tonini, the Archbishop of Ravenna, said:“Mass is the presence of Christ and the music adds so much more when the harmony allows the mind to transcend the concrete to the divine.”
There goes the Pope, complaining again. 😉
 
Brendan,

I think I misread your post, brother, with respect to “Gather Us In.” Because you worded it this way:
“Gather Us In” is a fine example. All it does is focus on the congregation, and what God can do for us.
Never on us giving God the Praise He is due.
… with the separation of a new paragraph, I did not take it as being a part of the exampled hymn, but as referring to most hymns as in your first paragraph, “This isn’t a matter of musical style, but rather inspidid, self centered lyrics.”

Actually, I agree with you on that particular hymn, but in general, no.
 
My question is why must people put so much effort in to producing bad music. Wouldn’t it be a lot simpler (and cheaper) if every church that does not have a proper choir just stuck to an organist and the people singing Catholic hymns? Why spend money on cantors and music directors to present a bunch of Protestant songs?

God Bless
 
What most of us ‘snobs’ object to is not “all hymns since Vatican 2”, but to poorly written, hard to sing, inclusive languged ‘me’ fests. And to a great extent, most of us who write in to object have not been to your Church and are not casting aspersions on your choir or your taste.

In this anti-authority generation, it has become a sort of reverse snobbery to denigrate those who do have experience in an area, and to maintain that those who do not like what 'I" like are snobs themselves. Well, while I acknowledge that experts are only human and as likely to commit error as any other, I respectfully submit that, for example, while your doctor may make a mistake in a diagnosis, he is less likely to make that diagnostic mistake in a patient than your lawyer, or your teacher, or your uncle Herman, or you yourself.
Have you ever read this?
 
Why is there a judgment that those who question a musical piece or practice in the liturgy are** complainers **? Right there you have put a negative spin on those who question anything.
I believe that the problem is that they are typically just flat out complaining, and not really offerring much in the way of something positive or productive. There’s a difference.
In this anti-authority generation, it has become a sort of reverse snobbery to denigrate those who do have experience in an area, and to maintain that those who do not like what 'I" like are snobs themselves. Well, while I acknowledge that experts are only human and as likely to commit error as any other, I respectfully submit that, for example, while your doctor may make a mistake in a diagnosis, he is less likely to make that diagnostic mistake in a patient than your lawyer, or your teacher, or your uncle Herman, or you yourself.
So a musical expert may be wrong about a hymn, or a style. He or she may not be as much of a theologian and so may err when considering that aspect of a hymn. But when you have large numbers of experts who have studied the matter and found areas of problems at the very least, it behooves us to consider well that they might be ‘right’ and that those who downplay or don’t find problems just may be wrong.
And yet, often it is the “experts” who, themselves, get on a high horse and decide that they shall not be challenged in their all-knowingness. Indeed, when it comes to ecclesiastical music in modern times, is it not often the self-appointed liturgical “experts” who may be a part of the problem?
When one considers the degree of animosity that comes about as people fly to the defense of songs they ‘love’, or have to deal with defending themselves against charges of being ‘judgmental and complainers’ , it seems obvious that dialogue about music is important and is not to be swept under the rug under the guise of a false ‘unity’ that insists that it’s more important just to ‘sit there’ and let ‘anything goes’ as regards to church liturgy.
(emphasis mine)

And herein lies the difference. There is healthy dialogue which is importan, worthwhile, and necessary. And, then, there is flat out unproductive complaining and even childish mockery. I think that the problem here is that often all we really have is the latter.
 
I don’t want to play the piano for Mass anymore.

I was kicked out of the Protestant Church, and it looks like, from the way many of you are responding to me, that I will eventually be kicked out of the Catholic Church, too.

fix, the article you posted–well, I know a church in my city that has been looking for two years to hire a music director/organist. I feel reasonably certain that this man would not get the job, though. There is an attitude of arrogance and disdain, and a lack of caring for fellow Christians. He can try to come to our city to interview, but I think he would be told to march away. We are in the Diocese of Rockford, BTW, one of the most conservative dioceses in the U.S.A.
 
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