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CaptainPrudeman
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If he’s in a state of mortal sin, whatever that sin may be, he’s deliberately telling God that he doesn’t want to be a part of anything God wants. That’s what mortal sin is.
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Latin
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These Theological Facts as follows are VERY IMPORTANT PARTS of our fullness of the truth!Lucysweeny:
God created us in His own image and likeness. This means that we have free will. He empowers us with the choice to avoid having Him in our lives, both in this life, and the next.
Although He created us for relationship with Him, love always sets free the other, so we are free to reject Him. How would it be loving to compulse those He created for relationship to exist eternally in His presence, when this is not where they wish to be? Have you ever been forced to be in the company of someone you just can’t stand to be around?
The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
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Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT for His good pleasure.”
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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God does NOT interfere with our free wills and our choices, God AIDS our free wills TO CHOOSE THE GOOD, without God’s aids/ gifts of efficacious graces we would choose ONLY lying and acts of sins.
Every our good decisions and every our good acts are the products of God’s gifts of efficacious graces.
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The Mystery of Predestination by John Salza: Page 119.
A sufficient grace has an operating effect only (empowering the will to act),
whereas an efficacious grace has both an operating and cooperating effect (applying the will to act).
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When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace) that infallibly produces the end (the act willed by God).
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We are not puppets because with His efficacious graces God enlightens our minds end we EVERY TIME infallible and freely choose the good (the act willed by God).
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Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence says.
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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God bless
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Here-I-am-Lord
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Yes and no. it is yes so long as you seek for Christian love. It is no otherwise.
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vsedriver
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we are not talking about ‘some people’s standards’. We are talking about church teaching. The church has never said anyone is doomed to hell.
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TheLittleLady
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Because God does not force even one person to be in his presence, God respects our free will to reject his mercy.
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CaptainPrudeman
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And under what authority do you make that claim? Jesus most definitely ordered the apostles to baptize. He established a Church with a pope and apostolic succession. God didn’t come on earth to just show forgiveness. God came to open our way to salvation. That is why He established the Church.
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Fauken
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Jesus and Peter I know. But who are you?
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AveOTheotokos
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If God only created beings that would love Him, or if he completely annihilated any being that rejected Him, He wouldn’t be all loving… He would be a tyrant and a monster. For us to be able to truly love Him eternally as a free choice, we also have to be able to reject Him eternally as well. Love is not forced; love is a free will choice.
When we choose God and to love Him, we say to Him, “Thy will be done” and in return He says to us, “My will be done.” What is God’s will for us? To come to know Him, Love Him, and serve Him in this life so as to be eternally happy with Him in the next.
On the other hand, when we reject God, we say to Him, “No… My will be done.” and in return, God loves us so much that He restrains Himself and His power and control; He refuses to overwhelm our free will choice with His grace and says to us in return “Thy will be done.”
God loves us so much that He draws back into Himself. He allows for there to be a “not Him”; for there to be a deafening, eternal silence apart from Him where we may eternally persist in our own self-righteousness and selfishness.
This is why it is often said that Hell is a door locked from the inside.
My friend, please watch this video. Fr. Mike explains this very well:
I also highly suggest you get a copy of Father Mike Schmitz’s CD The Four Last Things: Death, Judgement, Heaven, and Hell which excellently explains these concepts:
The Four Last Things: Death, Judgment, Heaven, Hell - Fr. Michael Schmitz
Fr. Mike Schmitz is one of the leading Catholic speakers in the Church today. Fr.
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CaptainPrudeman
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God gave Adam and Eve the ability to choose, and they chose to believe that the apple wouldn’t cause them to die. Look how they ended up. Your heart is not even close to any authority in telling you what Jesus really means.
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Delusioned
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To you, I’m nobody. But I don’t expect you to listen to me. I expect that you’ll do whatever you want to do. And you’ll claim that it was because of Peter, or Christ, or the Church. But in the end, you’ll do what you want to do. It’s up to you to decide what that is, and I accept that, just as you must accept my choice, or the OP’s choice. That’s the way life is. You choose.
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AveOTheotokos
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The experience of Hell is something that cannot be accurately described by people in this life. All of these descriptions and language are used in an attempt to convey that Hell is somewhere you don’t want to be.
Perhaps imagining it like this may help you.
Consider that not all pain is physical. For example, the pain of losing a loved one, of betrayal, of depression, of sadness, of anger, of embarrassment, of disappointment, of loss, etc… These pains, while they can sometimes lead to physical manifestations of discomfort, are primarily intellectual pains.
Considering these kinds of sufferings helps me to imagine the “pains” experienced during Purgatory and those in Hell that are suffered by the damned.
In Purgatory, all the decisions of our life are shown to us. We see how much God loves us, and we see how our decisions have gone against His will. We experience the pain of disappointment and sorrow when we see how much we have hurt others during our life. We experience the pain of seeing the consequences of all of our actions.
In Hell, we experience the pain of anger, resentment, jealousy, rage, hatred, etc… These emotions burn within us and perpetually devour us from the inside out. God does not inflict this pain on us; rather, it is an eternally self-inflicted consequence of our own selfishness.
As I said in my previous post, when we choose God and to love Him, we say to Him, “Thy will be done” and in return He says to us, “My will be done.” What is God’s will for us? To come to know Him, Love Him, and serve Him in this life so as to be eternally happy with Him in the next.
On the other hand, when we reject God, we say to Him, “No… My will be done.” and in return, God loves us so much that He restrains Himself and His power and control; He refuses to overwhelm our free will choice with His grace and says to us in return “Thy will be done.”
God honors our free will choice to accept Him or reject Him. We make that choice every second of every day throughout our life.
For this reason, with every breath, and with every heart beat, we should align our lives with His will.
“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”
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AveOTheotokos
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Agreed. The fall brought great consequences, but also an overall greater good.
God saw that the fall would happen, and He also saw what great good would come from it: Jesus becoming our Savior, the ability for us to experience the overwhelming mercy and love of God even when we reject Him, the pure and perfect creation, life, death, and assumption of Mary, all the great saints, and all the great merit, blessings, and grace we would receive this way, higher degrees of heaven and being closer to God by our redemptive sufferings and sacrifices on earth, etc…
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CaptainPrudeman
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God brings good from evil. That doesn’t make evil okay.
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CaptainPrudeman
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Yeah, it was. It was a direct order from God that they both chose to disobey, fully knowing what they were doing and fully consenting to it. They committed mortal sin. That’s evil.
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CaptainPrudeman
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Wrong. God told them specifically not to do what they did.
Also wrong. God told them that eating the fruit would make them die.
They seriously need to come up with a new word for how wrong this statement is. We are nowhere close to where God wants us to be! We fornicate, masturbate, lust, envy, take pride, fight wars, hoard money, commit sins as a society and a world daily. We’ve missed the mark tremendously.
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Delusioned
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But one doesn’t truly know all that disobedience entails, or what death is, until one experiences it. Only then do the warnings really have meaning. We now know what Adam and Eve couldn’t possibly have known. We know the suffering that evil causes. We know the consequences. We know what they didn’t. We are the ones who truly have a choice.
You think that because you’re not perfect, that you’re not what God wants you to be. That perhaps He thinks less of you. But you’re not supposed to be perfect. And if you’re not supposed to be perfect, then what are you supposed to be?
You’re supposed to be a child.
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CaptainPrudeman
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Just because they didn’t experience the consequence of their actions doesn’t mean they have no culpability. A child that burns their hand on an iron despite their parent’s warnings is just as guilty as one who has burned themselves before. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and that’s all you need to know. They separated their will from God’s and suffered the consequences.
I know i’m not supposed to be perfect. But i’m not supposed to be a habitual, unrepentant sinner.
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TheLittleLady
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The Church does proclaim the Felix Culpa!!
I’m just wondering, it seems many of your objections stem from a very Protestant, fundamental, Sol"o" Scriptura version of Christianity.
Perhaps take some time to explore Catholicism in depth?
I’m just wondering, it seems many of your objections stem from a very Protestant, fundamental, Sol"o" Scriptura version of Christianity.
Perhaps take some time to explore Catholicism in depth?
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Fauken
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There’s the Felix Culpa, and then there’s “If I had the chance I’d do it again”.
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ConsistantlyBaffled
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Saying people send themselves to hell is like saying a woman gave herself a beating because she didn’t have dinner ready when her abusive husband came home. it’s absolutely absurd. Christianity wrote itself into a corner with this god is both omnipotent and perfectly good line of thinking.
The early religious societies (like the greeks) didn’t really have this ‘why does my god allow bad things’ issue because they knew their gods were fickle and a tad crazy. If you didn’t respect Zeus, he might turn into a goose and seduce your wife. If you didn’t give offerings to Poseidon before a long boat journey, he’d send a storm to sink your ship. It was much more of a “keep the dangerous people happy” approach, which, in my opinion, makes their view a lot more consistent with the world around us than the christian god
The early religious societies (like the greeks) didn’t really have this ‘why does my god allow bad things’ issue because they knew their gods were fickle and a tad crazy. If you didn’t respect Zeus, he might turn into a goose and seduce your wife. If you didn’t give offerings to Poseidon before a long boat journey, he’d send a storm to sink your ship. It was much more of a “keep the dangerous people happy” approach, which, in my opinion, makes their view a lot more consistent with the world around us than the christian god
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