Story of Noah: Who believes it to be real?

[Orogeny]

Did you see the links between the spiecies?

Yes, and much more definitely between groups.

Were they layed out in a nice pattern going from less complex deeper and more complex to higher as shown in text book drawings?

Well, a trilobite is pretty complex, but generally, yes.

What kind of assumptions do you make to interpret the “fossil record”?

That the fossils are the remains of once living animals. What assumptions do you make when studying fossils?

How do you date your fossils?

Relatively. And with chemistry.

Do you make any assumptions in the initial mass before doing radio dating

No.

and does the location found on it’s own represent an assumed time period?

What? I don’t understand that question.

Now, how about some questions for you. Why were dinosaur bodies deposited before mastodon bodies in the flood? Why were the bottom-dwelling animals found in the lowest strata different than the bottom-dwelling marine animals in the higher strata? Why were no angiosperms deposited in the lower strata?

Good luck!

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

I’d rather be in a profession that has something useful to present to society. I have very little scientific respect for paleontologists. It’s a psudo science.

One more comment about this statement. You can thank paleontologists as you are driving your car. Paleontologists play a large role in exploring for oil. But I’m sure there are more useful things to present to society.

Peace

Tim

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’ve actually studied the fossil record. Have you? Have you ever found a fish fossil in Cambrian deposits? How about a horn coral in Eocene deposits? How about mammal fossils in Permian deposits?

Where did you study paleontology?

Peace

Tim

Talking of fossils - this may be of interest:​

• Giant rat that once roamed the earth
• Holmes’s giant rat
  It was the size of a car - so it is not clear how it could have fitted into the Ark.

BTW - how would tarantulas get on ? They are not small. Some spiders are not safe to be with - not even if one is a male spider The picture of Noah standing on the gang-plank overseeing the entry of giant arachnids - or even giant rodents - into the Ark is like something from a B movie. And how would Noah know that he had not overlooked animals that live in caves - especially the well-hidden ones ?

The appeal of theories about advanced technology in now-vanished civilisations is clear enough - the use of very advanced technology by the Patriarchs would solve a lot of problems…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Sorry, but I think you completely misssed the particular points I made about chronology and geological evidence. These points need to be considered when looking at other deluge stories. The Mesopotamian stories refer to an event that happened not only in prehistory, but way back in pre-history. The biblical account is not of an event the was prehistorical.

If one adopts the Black Sea Theory of the Flood, that might be true - the BST gives a date (IIRC) of c. 5000 BC.​

If one adopts the Persian Gulf Theory, as Robert Best does in his book on the Flood, one gets a date about 2900. And 2900 is within historical time: in Mesopotamia, it counts as Early Dynastic period 1; Gilgamesh is datable roughly to 2700-2600. This is after the growth of cities had begun in Mesopotamia - & after the invention of writing,though this would have still been rather new. No tablets that old can AFAIK be read.

Next, there is no geologic evidence to indicate a deluge on the magnitude portrayed in the Mesopotamian and biblical stories.

These facts of chronology, plus archaeological and geological findings need to be kept in mind when looking at deluge stories from other cultures around the world.

In addition, non-mesopotamian stories do not have the same parallels to the biblical account as does the Epic of Gilgamesh.

In regard to comparing stories cross-culturally, some cultural anthropologist discount the Creation story in Genesis as being Divinely inspired because there are so many similar stories around the world. In making this judgment these scientists miss seeing that which is unique to the Genesis account and which makes it, despite any similarities to other creation stories, truly unlike any other culture’s story.

If you have particular deluge stories in mind that you think indicate a world-wide flood, just provide links to them, and, if possible, links to an analysis of the stories by a reputable scholar or scientist. Keep in mind what has already been said here about the timeline and geological evidence. I am looking for deluge stories that are “outstandingly similar”, as well as scientific evidence that contradicts what I have said here. If a story refers to a world-wide flood, that fact by itself does not constitute proof a global deluge. More facts are needed to support the conclusion.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

And there is also the issue of memory - would something thousands of years old be remembered at all clearly; how long do reliable traditions reach back to in more or less illiterate societies ? Any anthropologists out there ?​

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If all the animals mentioned in the Noah account are true what area of the Earth would probably have all of those animals?

I don’t know the ranges of animals in Noah’s time but it shouldn’t be impossible to extrapolate where one might be able to find all those that are mentioned–

In other words many areas of the Earth would not have all of those animals–you don’t hear of the platypus being mentioned so the flood probably didn’t take place in Australia.

Mt. Ararat could have been a name for a mountain that is in a different area of the world than the current Mt. Ararat is.

Could you find ALL of the animals mentioned in the Noah account where the present day Mt. Ararat is located?

If not then maybe the flood could have taken place somewhere quite different than what most of the recent history people are proposing.

I think that adam and eve were the first homo sapiens and came from Africa.

I’ll just mention that it could be possible that the actual Noah Flood took place in Africa and that the writer of Genesis used the place names that were common among the Jews who were teliing the story when they wrote the story.

In other words the place names referred to current place names that the writer of Genesis would be familiar with but the actual places were somewhere vastly different.

Or of course you could say that Eden was on another plane and that the world of Noah was really where Africa is but intersected with present day earth where the present day Mt. Ararat is.

That way the writer would be telling the truth about the flood with it ALSO happening somewhere else!

I’m telling you people–open your minds–if different physical planes exist in science fiction stories such as Star trek–and if worm holes can transport one far distances that are also close

and if Jesus can be Substantially present in bread and wine

Don’t tell me that all the apparent contradictions of Genesis might not be contradictions at all!

Look–Eden still is located by the Euphrates River in Iraq–but it is in another plane–and inbetween our plane and that plane–in the inbetween zone–I bet there probably is an angel with a sword making sure that no one can cross form one plane to the other!

 

[itinerant1]

And there is also the issue of memory - would something thousands of years old be remembered at all clearly; how long do reliable traditions reach back to in more or less illiterate societies ? Any anthropologists out there ?

The claim is not that something is being remembered clearly for thousands of years. For that would be to make an extraordinary and unfounded claim.

The claim is that the Mesopotamian flood stories are most likely based on an actual catastrophic event. I also indicated that the magnitude of this catastrophic became exaggerated as the story was retold from one generation to the next. This is how primitive story telling works. The stories become embellished over time. After many retellings you have quite an amazing story. The fact that you end up with quite a fanciful story does not mean that there is no historical basis for any of the events or elements depicted in the story. The genre of the Epic of Gilgamesh is that of a myth, not history.

Furthermore, memory itself can be better in pre-literate societies because they are dependant on word of mouth, and hence, memory. Since the advent of writing there is less need to depend completely on memory. We can refer to our notes, or books, etc. We no longer need to commit everything to memory. Writing, unfortunately, also replaces the usefulness of the elders in society. We do not depend on the grandparents, or the old wise ones, so to speak, who can tell us the stories of our past. We just Google whatever it is we want to know. With the gains afforded by each new technology, there is something that is lost.

itinerant1, amatuer anthropologist at your service, :tiphat:

 

[itinerant1]

If one adopts the Black Sea Theory of the Flood, that might be true - the BST gives a date (IIRC) of c. 5000 BC.​

If one adopts the Persian Gulf Theory, as Robert Best does in his book on the Flood, one gets a date about 2900. And 2900 is within historical time: in Mesopotamia, it counts as Early Dynastic period 1; Gilgamesh is datable roughly to 2700-2600. This is after the growth of cities had begun in Mesopotamia - & after the invention of writing,though this would have still been rather new. No tablets that old can AFAIK be read.

Note: The dating of extant tablets is one thing, and an important thing. The date of the tablet, though, has little to do with the unknown date of the event the tablet refers to. The deluge referred to in all of the various Mesopotamian stories is something that occurred a very long time prior to the advent of writing, whether it is writing on tablets or on anything else.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[itinerant1]

If all the animals mentioned in the Noah account are true what area of the Earth would probably have all of those animals?

I don’t know the ranges of animals in Noah’s time but it shouldn’t be impossible to extrapolate where one might be able to find all those that are mentioned–

In other words many areas of the Earth would not have all of those animals–you don’t hear of the platypus being mentioned so the flood probably didn’t take place in Australia.

Mt. Ararat could have been a name for a mountain that is in a different area of the world than the current Mt. Ararat is.

Could you find ALL of the animals mentioned in the Noah account where the present day Mt. Ararat is located?

If not then maybe the flood could have taken place somewhere quite different than what most of the recent history people are proposing.

I think that adam and eve were the first homo sapiens and came from Africa.

I’ll just mention that it could be possible that the actual Noah Flood took place in Africa and that the writer of Genesis used the place names that were common among the Jews who were teliing the story when they wrote the story.

In other words the place names referred to current place names that the writer of Genesis would be familiar with but the actual places were somewhere vastly different.

Or of course you could say that Eden was on another plane and that the world of Noah was really where Africa is but intersected with present day earth where the present day Mt. Ararat is.

That way the writer would be telling the truth about the flood with it ALSO happening somewhere else!

I’m telling you people–open your minds–if different physical planes exist in science fiction stories such as Star trek–and if worm holes can transport one far distances that are also close

and if Jesus can be Substantially present in bread and wine

Don’t tell me that all the apparent contradictions of Genesis might not be contradictions at all!

Look–Eden still is located by the Euphrates River in Iraq–but it is in another plane–and inbetween our plane and that plane–in the inbetween zone–I bet there probably is an angel with a sword making sure that no one can cross form one plane to the other!

Do I detect a contradiction in what you said about Noah’s Ark? It seems that at first you are saying that one could not find all of those animals in many places on earth, and then you suggest a regional flood somewhere in Africa. Well, yes Africa has abundant forms of fauna, but how do you know that many species not found in Africa were actually among those taken aboard the Ark?

The real problem here is that this whole approach of specualting where the flood could have taken place sidetracks one from the Divine message of the Noah story. There is no geological answer to where the Flood took place. The Noah story says the flood covered the earth. The upshot of what I have been saying about the similarities of this to the Epic of Gilgamesh is that it does not matter whether there was a Flood that actually covered the entire world, or if there was just a regional Flood–what is important is what the biblical author *means *when he says the Flood covered the entire world. He is saying something about the sinfulness of man, about God’s justice, and more. What is the text teaching? The message is what is important, and not all of this geological speculation designed to prove a literal/historical sense to the author’s words.

Likewise, fanciful speculations about other planes of existence distracts from understanding God’s message in the Bible.

The same holds true, with speculating about an actual, historical location of the Garden of Eden. This distracts from the message and meaning of the story. The story describes the original, elevated state of man before sin in terms that are not scientific, but are figurative ways of conveying theological truths.

Scientists may discover where on this planet Homo Sapiens first originated. And that is a very good thing. But it constitutes a major misunderstanding of the literary genre of the Adam and Eve story, or rather stories, to say the Garden of Eden must then have actually been in Africa, or wherever scientist say Homo Sapien first appeared.

This is not the right way to look at the biblical story. We are not only distracted from the message of the story when we do that, we also fail to penetrate to the deeper meanings of the story.

Likewise, some people think the most important or fascinating thing about the Book of Jonah is whether there was actually a fish in the sea big enough to swallow a man. But then if you ask them what the Book of Jonah is all about, or what is God’s message to the Jews, they cannot give a very insightful answer.

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the subject.

Peace,

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Exactly what literary genre is the resurrection of Jesus?

How much consensus is there among the literary genre lovers as to which events in the bible actually happened and which are literary genres?

And it is a false dichotomy to say that interest in Any of the details of the Bible is a bad thing and that the Only thing that is important is the moral thrust of what the Bible is trying to convey.

To be really sophisticated is to appreciate both–we as Catholics should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time–if God can certainly perform such a small feat–shouldn’t our minds be big enough to contemplate more than one truth at once?

And for all the Jonah and the whale naysayers–is Jonah being in a whale harder to believe than the Resurrection of Jesus or Peter praying and the dead Tabitha coming back to life or are those events just Literary genres, too?

 

[itinerant1]

How much consensus is there among the literary genre lovers as to which events in the bible actually happened and which are literary genres?

Your questions, in the manner that you have worded them are difficult to address because they are rhetorical, and also show your misunderstanding what is meant by “literary genre”.

Your words, quoted above, reveal that you have created a false distinction or false dichotomy between ‘biblical events that actually happened (historical)’ and “literary genre”.

So, you should first understand what is meant by “literary genre”. That should be easy enough for you to do online. After you understand what the term means, then re-phrase your questions in light of a proper use of the term. It’s not that I don’t know what you are asking, its just that I would like to avoid any unnecessary ambiguity and miscommunication related to improper use of terms.

Sometimes I make the mistake of assuming that everyone is familiar with terms I frequently use. This is my fault. However, instead of just posting a definition this time, I would like people to research the meaning of “literary genre” for themselves. And also compare the term with “literary form”.

Similar problems arise with the use of the word “myth”. We commonly use that word to mean something that is not true. For example, someone might say that the legends of Big Foot are myths, meaning they are not true (No offense is intended here to anyone who believes in the existence of Big Foot. I respect your beliefs. lol).

On the other hand, in ancient literature and story telling, “myth” has a different meaning. An ancient Near Eastern myth, or elements in it, may be true or false, according to the questions we ask. But truth or falsity does not pertain to the definition of “myth”. Myths are first, stories about the gods, stories in which the gods are *the *actors. This is so in cultures that are polytheistic. Big Foot legends are not myths in this sense of the term, because they are not stories featuring god(s) as the actor.

However, despite what many cultural anthropologist may believe, the world’s most ancient religion is monotheistic. Likewise, there are myths proper to monotheism. Monotheism *returned, *and eventually replaced the pre-dominance of polytheism. This was due to the influence of the Church.

So, historically, man went from being monotheistic to polytheistic and then back to monotheistic. Each theology, monotheistic and polytheistic has its myths. According to the meaning of “myth”, as I am using the term here, atheism has no myths proper to it because atheism does not believe in God or gods. In other words, since atheism is a completely false ideology, it has no myths.

Of course, one may disagree with my use of the term “myth”. In that case, for the sake of discussion, we would have to agree on a definition of the term we are using. Likewise, we need to agree on the meaning of “literary genre” before meaningful discussion can take place.

itinerant1 :tiphat:

 

[Steve40]

It’s too difficult for him to understand.

Peace

Tim

It is too difficult for me to understand why people pay any attention to them. Real fields of scientific study use observability and repeatability. Paleantology has neither when it comes to their ultimate conclusions.

 

[lucybeebee]

It is too difficult for me to understand why people pay any attention to them. Real fields of scientific study use observability and repeatability. Paleantology has neither when it comes to their ultimate conclusions.

The same could be said for astronomy, cosmology, and many fields of physics.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It is too difficult for me to understand why people pay any attention to them. Real fields of scientific study use observability and repeatability. Paleantology has neither when it comes to their ultimate conclusions.

Hi Steve,
Even if it isn’t strictly speaking scientific, since it can’t be repeated and observed, could it possibly still be logical and valid?

 

[Abbadon]

I believe that Noah’s ark is just a story, BUT god is god and god acan do anything.

I’m sure it was in his power to create a region of infinite space within the ark.
Then the devil could have laid out the fossil record the way we see it all in an attempt to trick humanity into falling away from god becuase they no longer see god in the creation process.

Prove me wrong?

You can’t, I can make up any unprovable story because within the realms of god any fantastical explanation is possible. The infinity of God means infinite possibilty. You can make the universe in 7 days amd make it look like it took millions and there could no be any adam and eve, although there was…

Go, just make up any story as to how adam and eve are possible or how Noah is possible, no evidence, word it in a way thats unfalsifiable and then ask people to prove you wrong. When it’s impossible to do so…

 

[vrlobo88]

Keep in mind that those in the Bible did not know the “world” to be as big as it really is. Even Columbus was blindsided by the existence of North and South America. Their view of the world was the little bit of existence that they knew of…if some major flood occurred in the “world” as they knew it, they would assume that the entire world had been flooded. Logistically, it is quite impossible for a group of people to construct a vesel that could hold the millions of species in this world. Also, Noah would have to carefully place each species in its respective environment to ensure survival. He would have to put kangaroos back in Australia, pandas in China, etc. I believe this story to be figurative, but based on maybe a bit of truth. I see it as one’s mistaken interpretation of a natural disaster as a punishment from God. The message is strong though…don’t disobey God.

 

[Abbadon]

Keep in mind that those in the Bible did not know the “world” to be as big as it really is. Even Columbus was blindsided by the existence of North and South America. Their view of the world was the little bit of existence that they knew of…if some major flood occurred in the “world” as they knew it, they would assume that the entire world had been flooded. Logistically, it is quite impossible for a group of people to construct a vesel that could hold the millions of species in this world. Also, Noah would have to carefully place each species in its respective environment to ensure survival. He would have to put kangaroos back in Australia, pandas in China, etc. I believe this story to be figurative, but based on maybe a bit of truth. I see it as one’s mistaken interpretation of a natural disaster as a punishment from God. The message is strong though…don’t disobey God.

Have you read the comic “The Authority” or anything with Jenny Sparks in it. It’s called “door” and it creates an interdimensional doorway from the ship to anywhere on the world. Could not god have put this useful feature in the ark as the animals exited?

 

[vrlobo88]

no i haven’t heard of such a thing. no offense, but it sounds a bit ridiculous. i thought you were joking at first.

 

[Abbadon]

no i haven’t heard of such a thing. no offense, but it sounds a bit ridiculous. i thought you were joking at first.

I’m not serious I’m just making a point.

God can do anything, so any “ridiculous” claim is possible.

Or are you telling me that god couldn’t do that if he wanted?

How did Noahs Ark really 100% as the bible says happen?

The answer my friends is simple… Magic…

 

[vrlobo88]

I’m not saying God couldn’t do it, but I’m saying God wouldn’t do it. With that aside for a second, think about what I said about the perspective of those in Biblical times. Throughout the Bible, ignorance of nature is shown; so rather than trying to comprehend some elaborate plan of God’s in order to protect the historical integrity of the story, think about why the story was written. What is/was it’s purpose?..then?..and now?

Is it that important for the story to be historically accurate? No. Jesus told parables. Did the stories really take place? No. But He got the message accross.

I’m not saying the story of Noah is based on nothing. I am merely saying it is a myth (this does not mean fairytale)…it means something based on a bit of truth, but highly fabricated. There may have been a flood, but its description in the Bible is blown out of proportion (because of ignorance of the world at those times) and is the writers attempt at making sense of it. He or she must be trying to explain why bad things happen. His or her explanation is that bad things happen as punishments for trespasses against God.

He or she associates natural disaster with punishment (due to ignorance). We know today that God does not punish us with natural disasters.

 

[Abbadon]

I’m not saying God couldn’t do it, but I’m saying God wouldn’t do it. With that aside for a second, think about what I said about the perspective of those in Biblical times. Throughout the Bible, ignorance of nature is shown; so rather than trying to comprehend some elaborate plan of God’s in order to protect the historical integrity of the story, think about why the story was written. What is/was it’s purpose?..then?..and now?

Is it that important for the story to be historically accurate? No. Jesus told parables. Did the stories really take place? No. But He got the message accross.

I’m not saying the story of Noah is based on nothing. I am merely saying it is a myth (this does not mean fairytale)…it means something based on a bit of truth, but highly fabricated. There may have been a flood, but its description in the Bible is blown out of proportion (because of ignorance of the world at those times) and is the writers attempt at making sense of it. He or she must be trying to explain why bad things happen. His or her explanation is that bad things happen as punishments for trespasses against God.

He or she associates natural disaster with punishment (due to ignorance). We know today that God does not punish us with natural disasters.

Oh I agree with you, I was merely speculating how a hard line Christian fundamentalist who believes in the literal truth of the bible might explain how the events described inteh bible could be real.

But see with that explanation you give to the story of Noah there are some question I must ask.

So does that mean ther really was no Noah?

If there was a Noah did he then not really speak to God?

If that part of the bible is merely a story to explain certain events that happened that had no logical explanation, how do you then know what really did happen?

Was the miracles of Jesus also simply a story?

How do you know what is literal and what is faux?