Story of Noah: Who believes it to be real?

[vrlobo88]

So does that mean ther really was no Noah?

Yes, that is a possiblity; on the other hand, it is possible for Noah to have existed, but the story surrounding his ark is fabricated and exaggerated.

If there was a Noah did he then not really speak to God?

Yes, possibly. When someone “speaks” with God in the Bible, this does not necessarily mean they carried on a verbal conversation with Him. God “speaks” to us in many ways.

If that part of the bible is merely a story to explain certain events that happened that had no logical explanation, how do you then know what really did happen?

We can only hypothesize and examine logically. This is what theologians do…we have to try to reconstruct the puzzle with scattered and missing pieces. We have to weigh the reliability of verbal accounts, textual reliability, points of view/ mindsets, motives, logistics, etc.

Was the miracles of Jesus also simply a story?

No. We are suppossed to believe they are literally true. I am not a theologian (not yet anyways). I probably can’t answer this to your satisfaction. There are a number of Roman and non-Jewish accounts of Jesus’ existence. However, I am unsure as to whether they discuss His miracles.

How do you know what is literal and what is faux?

You do your best to examine the story in question. It’s not easy and not everyone always agrees. If you discuss such issues with liberal priests like the Jesuits or so, you’ll get very interesting perspectives.

Off-hand, things that come to mind that raise question are:

• Jesus praying alone in the Garden of Gethsemane (if He’s alone, how is His conversation with the Father documented?)
• Jesus alone in the desert (tempted by Satan…same issue as above)
• The Pharisees come upon Jesus’ disciples picking grain in the fields (working on the Sabbath day)…Pharisees don’t just wander in the fields…quite coincedence that they’d be in the middle of nowhere along with Jesus and the disciples

 

[Abbadon]

I’m not here to argue with you so don’t worry about that. I was just interested how you reconcile seemingly opposing perspectives.

When you say “We are supposed to believe they are literally true”

I’ve heard this before but never really gone into depth about such a statement.

An authority figure tells you it is true, or that you should believe it to be true. Do you have to? And can you be a Christian if you believe something else but still in hte overall principle?

 

[vrlobo88]

An authority figure tells you it is true, or that you should believe it to be true. Do you have to? And can you be a Christian if you believe something else but still in hte overall principle?

The Church is ever changing on its stances on various issues. Years ago, the Church condemned Galileo for his “heretic” claims of the earth revolving around the sun. Nowadays, the Church fully accepts his claim. The same thing goes with homosexuality…now the U.S. Catholic Bishops Council acknowledges a possible genetic predisposition for sexual orientation, and in turn justifies homosexuality (however, it frowns upon sex outside of wedlock…and since gays can’t get married…homosexual sex is condemned). So the authority figure is not always right…after all, we are all humans and are all fallible.

What does it mean to be a Christian? Does it mean that you must go to Church on Sundays? Does it mean that you must follow religious customs of Christian churches? I don’t think so. I think the title “Christian” can be extended to all those who strive to live their lives in a Christ-like manner. Yes, those who are of the Christian faith are recognized as “Christians,” but I’d go so far as to say that one must not be of the Christian faith and does not even have to realize that they exhibit Christ-like behavior in order to fulfill the basic requirements for being a Christian.

I think God bases His judgement on our intentions. He does not want us to be mindless drones. To be so would be an insult to His creating us and giving us logical minds. He couldn’t curse us for searching for the truth and not just taking things at face value…if one believes only because mommy and daddy say that he or she must believe, does he or she truly believe? If God sees that we intend to seek the answer and that we are doing our best to serve Him and discover His true will, He will be happy. We as humans, regardless of creed, must do our best to serve Him (or whatever concept of god that we may hold) to the best of our abilities and mean well by it. If you mean well in what you do, can He blame you?

 

[BeyondDoubt]

Why the need for a poll?

May I ask what the Church teaches now and has infallibly taught in the past with regards to the Noah story?

 

[Orogeny]

It is too difficult for me to understand why people pay any attention to them. Real fields of scientific study use observability and repeatability. Paleantology has neither when it comes to their ultimate conclusions.

So says someone who has never studied the subject. You have no clue if that is a true statement or not because you have relied on YECs to tell you about something they must destroy in order to continue their fairy tale.

Peace

Tim

 

[Abbadon]

Why the need for a poll?

May I ask what the Church teaches now and has infallibly taught in the past with regards to the Noah story?

I wanted to see what kind of people are present on a catholic forum… And the numbers are turning out as expected…

Yea i would like to know the churches teaching on this two…

On antoher note I read an intresting paradox. If Noah only took 2 of each unclean animal how many ant species were wiped out by the species of ant eaters?

 

[BeyondDoubt]

I see lots of individual opinion on this thread… but is this right?

Shouldn’t a Catholic be appealing to Church teaching authority on this subject?

Is it right that Catholics should propound their own theories here?

Isn’t that where Protestantism started?

The Catholic Church doesn’t pronounce on anything anymore, it’s been stung too many times in the past, now all we get is spin… the modern political disease.

People want simple answers like… just how many pairs of animals were on the Ark (to the nearest million will do)? How big was the Ark? How did the creatures travel to the Ark? What did they eat on the Ark? Why did a tolerant compassionate God of love commit mass murder on the human race?

Now will the Church have the guts to say ‘literal’ or ‘allegorical’? Can they say that and not contradict previous teaching thus negating their claim to knowing the truth?

They won’t say anything… it’s spin city.

 

[Abbadon]

I see lots of individual opinion on this thread… but is this right?

Shouldn’t a Catholic be appealing to Church teaching authority on this subject?

Is it right that Catholics should propound their own theories here?

Isn’t that where Protestantism started?

The Catholic Church doesn’t pronounce on anything anymore, it’s been stung too many times in the past, now all we get is spin… the modern political disease.

People want simple answers like… just how many pairs of animals were on the Ark (to the nearest million will do)? How big was the Ark? How did the creatures travel to the Ark? What did they eat on the Ark? Why did a tolerant compassionate God of love commit mass murder on the human race?

Now will the Church have the guts to say ‘literal’ or ‘allegorical’? Can they say that and not contradict previous teaching thus negating their claim to knowing the truth?

They won’t say anything… it’s spin city.

So whats a church to do? It’s no wonder that the worlds largest growing religion is Islam, no wonder because they stand firm in the face of all contradiction.

 

[Bamm]

I see lots of individual opinion on this thread… but is this right?

Shouldn’t a Catholic be appealing to Church teaching authority on this subject?

Is it right that Catholics should propound their own theories here?

Isn’t that where Protestantism started?

The Catholic Church doesn’t pronounce on anything anymore, it’s been stung too many times in the past, now all we get is spin… the modern political disease.

People want simple answers like… just how many pairs of animals were on the Ark (to the nearest million will do)? How big was the Ark? How did the creatures travel to the Ark? What did they eat on the Ark? Why did a tolerant compassionate God of love commit mass murder on the human race?

Now will the Church have the guts to say ‘literal’ or ‘allegorical’? Can they say that and not contradict previous teaching thus negating their claim to knowing the truth?

They won’t say anything… it’s spin city.

BeyondDoubt, you make a valid point or points, I should say. I searched the Catechism and it talks all around it, but does not get specific. (unless I missed it, which is always possible since I am not perfect, hee hee hee)

Bamm

 

[Bamm]

So whats a church to do? It’s no wonder that the worlds largest growing religion is Islam, no wonder because they stand firm in the face of all contradiction.

Abbadon, is it? Who keeps the tally on the data used to make such statements? For example: I read the numbers of the membership of the Catholic Church, in small print it states that the Church counts all who were baptized (which includes mostly babies) in the Church in the number whether they are practicing Catholics, converted to other churches or faiths or totally turned away from the faith. Then I wondered if it included those who have passed away.

It is always important to know how the data was obtained, who is presenting it, etc.

Also, the statement: “stand firm in the face of all contradiction.” Does that not imply the lack of critical thinking?

I am in no way being facetious, but I do like to remind people to use the brain God gave them and think.

Bamm

 

[BeyondDoubt]

It’s no wonder that the worlds largest growing religion is Islam, no wonder because they stand firm in the face of all contradiction.

There is no Muslim magisterium, there is no one standing firm in the face of contradiction.

Muslims are in the main blissfully unaware or unconcerned about contradiction and non-Muslims in the main never discuss Islam with Muslims and would certainly hardly ever criticise it.

The problem the world as with Islam is that there is no Muslim centre of authority. Nobody is justifying Islam to the world nobody is engaging in criticism of Islamic beliefs.

Sorry silghtly OT.

Many if not all believing Muslims believe in the historic and literal existance of ‘Prophet Nuh’

 

[Abbadon]

Also, the statement: “stand firm in the face of all contradiction.” Does that not imply the lack of critical thinking?

I am in no way being facetious, but I do like to remind people to use the brain God gave them and think.

Bamm

I was honestly just taking a cheap shot at religion but using Islam so it wouldn’t get flamed as much…

 

[Abbadon]

There is no Muslim magisterium, there is no one standing firm in the face of contradiction.

Muslims are in the main blissfully unaware or unconcerned about contradiction and non-Muslims in the main never discuss Islam with Muslims and would certainly hardly ever criticise it.

The problem the world as with Islam is that there is no Muslim centre of authority. Nobody is justifying Islam to the world nobody is engaging in criticism of Islamic beliefs.

Sorry silghtly OT.

Many if not all believing Muslims believe in the historic and literal existance of ‘Prophet Nuh’

And this is why i think Christianity (and i like and I am apart of) as a whole has gone a long way. I can argue with you in the safety that you won’t kill me. Or burn down my relative countries embassies. Or harm me for “blasphemy”.

I Think that takes alot of patience, humility and i can’t quite find the word but its good quliaties rest assured. And my personal example is this…

I somehow got into an argument about Islam with someone on the train, I can’t even remember how, i think it was gay week on campus (I’m pro gay rights). Noted that unlike chrsitanity whose leader of example is jesus where as islam is muhummed and i noted points in the koran and gave roughly where they are and hence gave the conclusion as to why muslims are more violent and continue so and in my idioticy called mohhamed a murderous, pedophelic sex maniac. I ended up getting the **** beat out of me…

Jesus, a really nice guy, gets made fun of heaps by comedics. But most catholics and christains take it as comedy with a grain of salt. Sure it angers some but you dont get violent…

Nyway i better stop with the rant, i just remembered a very enraging time, got me a bit vented…

But thats a good point you raised. You could consider certain Imams to be leaders but only really within thier own coutnries and thier own sects of Islam.

 

[Abbadon]

I was honestly just taking a cheap shot at religion but using Islam so it wouldn’t get flamed as much…

Oh i forgot to mention the data was calculated using the census. And by growth i meant as in sheer numbers. as far as percentage growths it was athiests.

 

[whiteknite]

My answer is yes and no …here is why

At one time I would have said I was 100% certain it was factual. I was also such a fundamentalist Christian.Converting to Catholicism has helped me open my mind. I think about that story and the important part of the story is not that 2 of every animal got on a Ark.Certain morals of the story are more important to me now. The main one being that Noah did what God asked Him to do even though it sounded unreal.

Does that make sense?

God Bless

The bible states that upto several of each animal went into the Ark, In 2 by 2.

 

[whiteknite]

To try understand events in our age, We must try understand time before…
The Sumerians texts would answer the story of the floods if people would take time to learn there translations proper…
The flood according to Sumerians comes every 3500 yrs or so…
We are in time for the next if there Calculations are right…
Not that we should take this litiraly but just watch as there text is unfolding right now…
Just a thought

 

[peary]

To try understand events in our age, We must try understand time before…
The Sumerians texts would answer the story of the floods if people would take time to learn there translations proper…
The flood according to Sumerians comes every 3500 yrs or so…
We are in time for the next if there Calculations are right…
Not that we should take this litiraly but just watch as there text is unfolding right now…
Just a thought

God said that He would never punish humankind again by way of a flood, so I don’t foresee another world-wide catastrophe involving water again.

 

[whiteknite]

God said that He would never punish humankind again by way of a flood, so I don’t foresee another world-wide catastrophe involving water again.

I never said another flood.
uk.youtube.com/wh1tekn1te
Stuff about sumerians that i put together, Just stuff that makes you think…
Dont have to believe it but it does kinda make you think…

 

[Abbadon]

The bible states that upto several of each animal went into the Ark, In 2 by 2.

Which is mathematically impossible, unless…

You have an early quantum state phenomenon and the animals entering “the ark” actually entered a region of subspace… Or you could just store the DNA of multiple animals then recreate them after the destruction… or since your god could just go MAGIC and do whatever the frack you want…

 

[Abbadon]

God said that He would never punish humankind again by way of a flood, so I don’t foresee another world-wide catastrophe involving water again.

did god “say” or did someone say god said?