Story: "Prominent clergy are duking it out on social media over Joe Biden calling himself Catholic."

[MNathaniel]

That he or she will perform the political functions in a reasonable manner according to their policies is an absolute given. Who is going to vote for someone who is incompetent? Well, who would think that would be the case…

But the head of a country’s government represents that country. You want the person to be respectable and respectful. To be reasonably honest. To have an ability to string a few words together in a coherent manner. To be ‘statesman-like’. To be an honourable person.

Is Bidden that type of person? From what I know of him…yes. Is Trump? An unqualified no.

Surely those are characteristics that we’d look for?

No, I disagree.

I look for personality characteristics only if other criteria are met first.

And competence only matters after someone has made clear what goal they intend to competently effect.

Again, if a pilot’s stated goal is to throw me in the Atlantic ocean to die (or, since you’re getting specific with specific American politicians… if a pilot’s stated goal is to open up as many windows as possible on the plane for women to throw innocent children into the Atlantic ocean to die)… any hint of competence to achieve that goal is a bad sign, to me.

I’d rather elect a literal earthworm than a person competent to effect their stated goal of increasing the number of innocent children directly killed through abortion (euphemized through the polite table-manners language of “improving access to women’s healthcare”).

At least a literal earthworm won’t be competent to do that much damage. And the earthworm isn’t verbally promising to do more damage than the mass murder of children.

It honestly mystefies me, genuinely. How so many people seem to care more about a politician’s “respectable” table manners, than the literal lives of innocent children.

Give me an earthworm, give me a five year old, give me a caveman with turrets syndrome who screams profanity every other word. But don’t give me an activist for the pro-abortion agenda and tell me to tolerate them because they smile pretty.

 

[Freddy]

You’ve got the earthworm. Seems he was the best choice.

God help America.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

One of American society’s greatest failures is the continued shaming of third party voters. Our nation will forever be sick until we learn to not shame and suppress others for voting their conscience.

 

[MNathaniel]

One of American society’s greatest failures is the continued shaming of third party voters. Our nation will forever be sick until we learn to not shame and suppress others for voting their conscience.

Or ideally tweak the voting system to let new parties have more of an impact, would be my preference. Structural change. Maybe some form of implementing Ranked-choice voting to get past fear-based strategic voting in which people mostly vote ‘against’ one candidate instead of really ‘for’ another.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

What a coincidence that my favored third party also wants ranked choice, and the major parties want rule by majority only?

The system is broken.

 

[MNathaniel]

What a coincidence that my favored third party also wants ranked choice, and the major parties want rule by majority only?

The system is broken.

No kidding. A recent election in my own country, I was inwardly comforted when one of the parties won (even though I’d otherwise have been upset because of how rabidly pro-abortion they are) because they ran partially on a platform of electoral reform and I thought this could enable more long-term change and eventual actual representation of what currently unrepresented people want… and then as soon as they were in power, they effectively threw the plans for electoral reform in the bin. No more reform. Ugh.

 

[VonDerTann]

To be reasonably honest. To have an ability to string a few words together in a coherent manner. To be ‘statesman-like’. To be an honourable person.

Fred, we’ve had these debates many times.

Is Biden “reasonably honest?” An unqualified no. He’s told many whoppers and we won’t even go to his well-documented plagiarism. Can he “string together a few words?” The answer is the same - he’s hiding from the media; can’t stammer through a friendly interview; struggles to read from a teleprompter (!) and needed a verbatim script to use to call Kamala Harris and ask him to run for VP. He is the furthest thing from statesman-like; it’s come out this week that Barack Obama said of Joe recently, words to the effect of “don’t be surprised how many things Joe can f[oul] up.”

Statesman-like? Joe Biden’s a buffoon.

Finally, Fred, do you really feel qualified to make all these pronouncements about what Americans should value in their leader? People here don’t tell you what your countrymen should look for in a leader, do they?

 

[Lucy_1]

Do you really care (as your primary concern) whether your politician is an “honourable man” on some personal, private level? Or do you care that your politician will effectively perform political functions that achieve political outcomes closer to what you believe are morally just?

After Trump? I’m only voting for candidates who exhibit both. If a political candidate isn’t of good character, the chances he will vote for moral policies is less likely.

 

[MNathaniel]

After Trump? I’m only voting for candidates who exhibit both. If a political candidate isn’t of good character, the chances he will vote for moral policies is less likely.

I think that’s fair.

I’m honestly not out stumping for Trump.

I personally find most political… anything… repulsive, right now.

But so long as someone takes both ‘character’ and ‘declared policy intentions’ into account, I think that’s reasonable. Character does matter. I certainly don’t think otherwise. I just also think it’s deeply hypocritical to vote for someone with good table manners who openly announces his intention to effect intrinsically evil policies like increasing “access” to child murder. The latter shows ‘character’ more crucially than the former. But if someone just vetoes both candidates and goes third party, I can respect that they’re trying to do something good with integrity (while still respecting those who hold their nose and try to vote whichever way they think minimizes the deaths of innocents, etc).

It’s messy. Politics is messy. I don’t really know which (if any) political ‘camp’ I’d fall into right now… I just know that if anything, I hate tolerating euphemized child murder from those who perform “respectability” and “statesmanlike” table manners, more than I hate tolerating rude manners from someone who at least seems to try to veto the child-killing stuff, and put pro-life judges in long-term positions to do something about it.

Again though, that stuff is messy and you end up voting on hope, and the hopes don’t necessarily pay off.

I just can’t stomach tolerating the hypocrites. When it comes to Trump, at least he’s in your face and puts everything out in the open: he likes money, he’s openly nepotistic, he’s brash and rude, etc. It’s the politicians who speak prettily and perform ‘statesmanlike’ behaviour, while actively pushing to expand the direct killing of children, that make my stomach churn.

 

[StudentMI]

I just can’t stomach tolerating the hypocrites. When it comes to Trump, at least he’s in your face and puts everything out in the open: he likes money, he’s openly nepotistic, he’s brash and rude, etc. It’s the politicians who speak prettily and perform ‘statesmanlike’ behaviour, while actively pushing to expand the direct killing of children, that make my stomach churn.

Those are pretty much my thoughts.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The Church is not supposed to be making statements about political candidates.

This includes Bishops tweeting. I do not care which candidate they’re tweeting for or against, they need to just stop.

 

[Dovekin]

I just can’t stomach tolerating the hypocrites. When it comes to Trump, at least he’s in your face and puts everything out in the open: he likes money, he’s openly nepotistic, he’s brash and rude, etc. It’s the politicians who speak prettily and perform ‘statesmanlike’ behaviour, while actively pushing to expand the direct killing of children, that make my stomach churn.

I do not think I have ever seen a more inaccurate description of a politician. He puts nothing in the open, you are just fooled by the distractions he throws in your way. He promises to “drain the swamp” but instead has thrown us all into the ocean of corruption that has overrun the swamp. He is not a successful businessman, but someone who hides what he has done while he shows how incompetent a manager he is.

 

[MNathaniel]

MNathaniel:

I just can’t stomach tolerating the hypocrites. When it comes to Trump, at least he’s in your face and puts everything out in the open: he likes money, he’s openly nepotistic, he’s brash and rude, etc. It’s the politicians who speak prettily and perform ‘statesmanlike’ behaviour, while actively pushing to expand the direct killing of children, that make my stomach churn.

I do not think I have ever seen a more inaccurate description of a politician. He puts nothing in the open, you are just fooled by the distractions he throws in your way. He promises to “drain the swamp” but instead has thrown us all into the ocean of corruption that has overrun the swamp. He is not a successful businessman, but someone who hides what he has done while he shows how incompetent a manager he is.

What’s that? Someone on the internet thinks something about Trump is bad and I must just not have noticed it?

My mind is now changed and I will approach all my political questions the same way they do.

If only someone had previously mentioned something obvious and negative about Trump.

Like, every day all day for the last 4 years. Or something.

 

[VonDerTann]

He is not a successful businessman,

–By whose metric? If anyone looks at his business dealings objectively, he’s brilliant, doing things no one on this board could do with a million years and ten million dollars head-start. He’s taken holes in
the ground and turned them into 40-story buildings. He bought Mar-A-Lago for a song because he had the presence of mind to buy the beach in front of it for a fraction of its value.

He’s certainly more successful than anyone else on this board by a factor of 100.

but someone who hides what he has done

–I’d be curious to know exactly what you feel Trump “has done” that he has “hidden.” His business strategies? He’s written various books detailing them. If it’s his business dealings…OK, what exactly would you like to know? He’s also one of the only pols I know who has, for example, released a list of judges he said he’d pick from for the Supreme Court if elected (which he did). Biden? Hillary? Neither would do the same.

while he shows how incompetent a manager he is.

-Interesting, considering many who worked under him in the private sector often loved the man. And there’s a lot of competence needed to, as I said, take a hole in the ground and make it a 50 story building. I’d bet you couldn’t do that. In fact, what most haters say is just “he’s got good employees to do it for him!” (if he’s so incompetent, why do his projects get built?)

 

[Mister_Friscus]

The clergy has a point here:

It’s possible to fall short of the word in your own vices, but proclaiming false theology is unacceptable.

A homosexual can be, and is, like the rest of us sinners in the church. They have immoral impulses, and even if they act on them, they can know they did wrong and repent. It’s being “gay”, or saying there’s nothing wrong with the acts and impulses, that are incompatible with the church.

The same goes with Biden here and abortion. He can admit that he knows it’s at odds with church teaching, he’s doing wrong by going along with it, and repent. Or, he can proudly proclaim it’s what is righteous, as he’s done. That, like being a proud gay person, is incompatible with the church.

Both are telling the church their doctorine is flawed, and are actively misleading people, especially Biden. He can claim whatever he wants, but his position points a finger at the church itself and tells her “You’re wrong”. He needs to be called out on that, it’s too bad we have such a Democrat complicent media who never push people like Biden. Democrats should absolutely be held accountable by clergy… I’ve been waiting for it for some time, and am amazed that it’s never really happened.

I can only imagine that the reason for inaction here is that there’s a fear of if the church proclaims its morals firmly, half of the country will feel alienated or something like that, numbers might go down, etc. Thus, we have to water down the church for numbers? So people don’t leave? Life is full of balances, but this would seem like an area where we have to be pretty strict and clear to the public. People respect a group that knows what it is, and if Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden are allowed to openly commune, holding the stances which are at an impasse with the church… if I were a non-Catholic I’d be like “What the heck is going on??”

 

[MNathaniel]

The Church is not supposed to be making statements about political candidates.

This includes Bishops tweeting. I do not care which candidate they’re tweeting for or against, they need to just stop.

I dunno, I thought St. John the Baptist had a good point about Herod Antipas.



I honestly mean that in a spirit of gentleness. Not trying to start an argument. Just… all throughout the Church’s history, from the very beginning, there have been important and saintly figures who spoke out publicly against politicians of their times. I wonder if sometimes we fall a little too far into ‘respectability politics’ if we treat our era as an exception, or find ourselves more embarrassed by the bishops who rebuke than by the politicians who deserve rebuke.

Again, not trying to start anything about Biden specifically, or American politics specifically (it’s not even my country). Just, in general, I think actually we might be able to make a decent case that prominent churchmen should indeed make statements about many things, including political phenomena (including politicians who publicly campaign at least in part on Catholic identity while actively pursuing policies the Church condemns)… and that in fact we have lots of precedent of Catholic saints throughout history who did exactly this. The intended purpose (insofar as I understand it) seems not to scandalize, but rather to counteract the scandal of the anti-Christian witness of the public figure who is otherwise setting a scandalizing example for others. While some might be offended at a bishop rebuking a political figure, many more might be offended at a bishop failing to rebuke a political figure. Silence in the face of scandal can become itself a greater scandal (as I think we have seen in other areas).

It’s just always awkward when it happens within our own generation. Because truth-tellers can be an abrasive bunch. There’s a reason most folks usually reject and ostracize the prophets of their own generation. But later generations tend to look back and say: “… Yeah, that was actually a fair occasion for public comment.”

(I’m not using ‘prophet’ here in the strictest sense; just… more, people who say things that need to be said. And I’m personally fully on board with telling the truth in gentleness. At the same time… again, I think we’re chock full of examples of saints who leaned in the direction of sassy with their truth telling, and were unafraid to rebuke public figures in a public fashion.)

 

[VonDerTann]

Good points.

To go a bit further, I think that most Catholics on this board, if asked, would not like the concept of “separation of Church & State.” Heck, on this board some have advocated for what is basically a Catholic theocracy. So, why do they want to separate the 2 when it comes to clergy telling pols the pols are wrong? You’ve got to be consistent, folks.

 

[Mister_Friscus]

I’m fine with the separation of church and state as it’s defined in the Constitution. A forced state religion would be anti-Catholic. You enter the church of your own free will. There’s no other way to have it. The USA should never be a theocracy. Even though its founding principles are based in judeo-Christian values, those superior western values aren’t unique to a Christian God fearing person.

As long as the government doesn’t infringe on religious freedom of the church and faithful, there’s no problem. Christ never sought out to overthrow Rome. His mission was apolitical at the time.

 

[Freddy]

He’s certainly more successful than anyone else on this board by a factor of 100.

If it’s his business dealings…OK, what exactly would you like to know?

Pro rata, considering what he started with and what he’s worth now, he’s waaaay behind what anyone could easily achieve on a pro rata basis with some common sense and a reasonable income including the guy typing this. And I haven’t gone bankrupt 5 times and left sub contractors millions out of pocket.

And I would really like to see his tax returns thanks very much. Someone who doesn’t want them to be released has something he doesn’t want you to see.

 

[Freddy]

Finally, Fred, do you really feel qualified to make all these pronouncements about what Americans should value in their leader? People here don’t tell you what your countrymen should look for in a leader, do they?

I’m telling you what any reasonable person should expect in any politician, from any party from any country.

I’m old enough to go back eleven presidents. Six of them Republican. And I honestly find it difficult to describe the gulf between what I would consider the least competent of those (a close call between Ford and Carter) and Trump. It even galls me to put him in the same group as those eleven. As if he could be compared to even the least of them.

I love America. I love Americans. I love the country. I’ve spent months travelling from sea to shining sea. But I really wish you could see the country with our eyes. It really does depress people to see what’s happening. You’ve been like our big brother who was always brash and forward. But the smartest guy around. Someone who was always taking the lead but would always take time to help those who weren’t keeping up. Someone who found it difficult sometimes taking the responsibility of being the guy we all turned to.

But if you had our back, and you always did, then we’d have yours. We might not have been able to throw a punch like you did but we’d still be there.

But now…? A smaller country and it might be looked upon with amusement. But you’re not a small country. So we see it as a tragedy. And it’s immensely depressing.