Striving for holiness and union with God

[kira33]

I am a recent convert to the Catholic faith, having been converted from a religion that advocated constant remembrance of God, austerity & renunciation, praying without ceasing, performing all actions as a service to God and directing every thought, word and deed towards the Lord (doing nothing at all for my own pleasure), conforming my life to His will.

After reading many books about the Catholic saints, and seeing a great similarity between my previous faith and theirs, I decided to convert to Catholicism, looking forward to fellowship with those having a similar level of devotion to God. What attracted me most to Catholicism was Carmelite contemplative prayer and union with God, as described so beautifully by St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, and the practice of the presence of God which Brother Lawrence employed throughout his life.

Most of the Church members (including professed religious) I have been blessed to interact with seem to be quite ‘worldly’, spending a great deal of time talking about things completely unrelated to God and not being very reverent or focused on things of the Lord. Even conversations which start out spiritual don’t go very deep and turn towards things of the world shortly thereafter. I’m left with a very intense longing in my heart and a sense of unfulfillment. I feel so sad in my heart about this.

I am wondering if there are actually people in the Church who are sincerely striving toward holiness, desiring to glorify God with their entire lives, remembering Him not just during prayers, but all the time, every single minute - or if this is a thing of the past and/or something practiced only by saints.

I pray that I have not offended anyone, as I do not wish to criticize or judge others, especially when I am so imperfect myself.

 

[puzzleannie]

I can’t imagine how you made it through RCIA with the delusion that you would find most Catholics are saints. You must have been in a very sheltered parish. but seriously folks . . .

I guess I would steer you to the gospel about Martha and Mary. There are two types of disposition for service to God and his church, the active and the contemplative. They are not in competition, as Martha thought, they are complementary. To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose. We are called to be in the world, but not of the world. Yes we do strive to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, and to keep our eyes on the prize always.

but that does not mean neglecting those in the world, especially the poor (materially and spiritually) and those for whom we have immediate responsibility–our family, our jobs, our parish, our community. But turning “on” the job or duty or work switch does not turn “off” the prayer or contemplation switch. The meaning of the Incarnation is that we encounter Jesus in the sacraments He instituted, so that we may recognize Him when we encounter Him in the poor. “As long as you did it for one of these, the least of your brethren, you did it for Me.”

It does not require, as yesterday’s gospel points out, that we continually remind ourselves and others that “Hey, looky here, I am doing God’s work, yep, that’s me, I am on the fast track to heaven!”

the Little Way of St Therese perfectly describes this attitude of doing all the ordinary tasks and accepting all the ordinary events of daily life for the greater honor and glory of God, by doing and accepting in love - privately, not ostentatiously.

If you had encountered Catholics, especially priests and religious, who impressed you with their constant piety, then I would really be worried.

 

[snuffy]

I can certainly understand where you are coming from my friend. In our Church noone talks about God.
I’m sure Our Lord is soo sad about this.
Although I’ve learned to let it go and just pray for these people. To be in constant judgmental mode.Please don’t get me wrong I know you are not at this stage yet…but trust me it can lead to it.

What I’ve learned, besides praying for all these people. IS THAT…you should Thank God for where you are at this moment in your striving for holiness!!
I also believe that Satan is playing a BIG role in all of this. He doesn’t want anyone Holy…And if he can distract people into thinking that something, anything else is more important than Knowing, Serving and Loving God, then he is winning…That’s why I stress to pray for these people that the Light of Our Lord come shining through…
I know up here in Canada…where in scripture Jesus says, “When I return will I find any faith here on earth.”. It’s scary…there’s just too many people worried about too many things…that they take their eyes off of Our Lord and look for things of this world.

Hope this helps…But we are living in a time of great crisis where Our Lord is calling people to fight the good fight…And to me I must try not to judge the others…because they can’t hear God’s call. So we must pray that the darkness that surrounds this world…turns into a Great Light. Come Lord Jesus, come quickly.
Jeanette

 

[Teresa9]

Dear friend

Holiness is in the heart, the visibility to you in constant words of our Lord is not the point of it. Holiness is a love of God that spreads to a love of others and of yourself, so whether people talk about football or about our Lord, the fact is it should be done with the love and kindess of Jesus and this is true holiness. Holiness is for all not just those in religious office, all followers of Christ are called to be holy, in their homes, in their work, rest and play.

Holiness is a gift from God that is only achievable when a person unites their will with God , in love of His Son Christ Jesus and allowing the Holy Spirit to work within them. Try not to look at the topic of conversation, but HOW the conversation is conducted, the love and kindness and respect we give to others no matter what is discussed is how holiness is evident. We do not change ourselves in that we look holy!!..we change internally in that we become holy and that holiness is manifest in how we treat others. ( there is no particularly holy way to walk or eat or sleep !!! )

There is a loss of self in holiness, an openess of heart that creates a seemingly vunerability, but that person is in this weakness truly strong, this strength comes in humility.

When a person is filled with a zeal for the faith, like with a new toy, they want to discuss nothing else than our Lord and the seemingly lack of discussion compared to their burning heart by other people in the faith seems to be disheartening, don’t let this happen to you. You can be assured that those people who have come to their faith and/or religious office have felt exactly the same way as you have at the beginning of the journey in faith, though over time they have gained wisdom that in the smallest of conversations or actions done, holiness is evident in how we treat each other, every act coming from love of and centered in our Lord. This is holiness.

Everyone has different ways of manifesting this holiness depending on their personality (introvert, extrovert etc) You may look at someone and think because they are loud and very jovial they are not too holy, on the contrary , their personality and their gifts are differing and the way their holiness in the Lord is manifest is different from other people, each of us are unique and their holiness is unique in the Lord.

Be yourself in Christ, this is when we truly are ourselves when we live in Christ, be who you are, God made you as you are and loves you always. Keep His laws, love each and every person you meet, live a life of constant prayer in all you do, say and think, speak to God often and you will not go wrong in achieving holiness if you do this.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[tru_dvotion]

Dear snuffy,

“When I return will I find any faith here on earth.” means just that. Will Christ find FAITH? Not necessarily how someone may appear to us before or after mass. I man might talk about nothing but hockey, I live in Canada too, or a woman may talk about nothing else than her grandchildren, but they too can have an unshakeable faith in our Lord.

Jesus also said, the first will be last and the last will be first. Teresa brought up the bubbly personality as an example. I will bring up another: Some of the holiest people stunk, were lice infested and had the most unfriendly demeanor. So the old cliché; we cannot judge a book by its cover is true indeed. Many people did not recognize the Son of God when he walked the Earth. They thought him a madman, a rebel or an ignorant Jew. Even those close to him failed to recognize his true nature until his Resurrection. We are generally not well equipped to decide who among us is destined for holiness in the Sunday crowd.

 

[mercygate]

Kira,

Have a look at this website. A LOT of people are aiming at what you are striving for and some of us are doing it this way:

www.penitents.org

You sound like one of us.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I am wondering if there are actually people in the Church who are sincerely striving toward holiness, desiring to glorify God with their entire lives, remembering Him not just during prayers, but all the time, every single minute - or if this is a thing of the past and/or something practiced only by saints.

I pray that I have not offended anyone, as I do not wish to criticize or judge others, especially when I am so imperfect myself.

Yes there are. But as we live in the world, and even priests and religious do, unless they belong to a sequestered order, it is impractical to expect to converse about God only. Jesus fasted, prayed, thought, healed, and redeemed us at the end of his earthly life. But he spent thirty years of that life doing every day things. He used the hammer and the broom for most of his life. Can we do any less? Were the folk in Nazareth aware of his interior life? No, only his mother knew. The people you are looking for are living an interior life, but that is not in a visible realm. The public and private lives of those striving for holiness are quite separate. You wish to be admitted into this private realm. Well… that is not so easy, because we are not all the same and we are not at the same point in our journey. The persons you encountered maybe every bit as committed to holiness as you are, they could have also surpassed the stage where you are at the moment, so they opt to converse with you about something you can both relate. There is also a need to preserve one’s interior life in private, because of humility and because it may injure those who are beginning on their spiritual journey. But you need not be alone; we have an entire family to support us in our private journey. We have a Father, we have a Brother, we have a Comforter, we have a Holy Mother, and we have an army of Saints who all desire that we succeed on our earthly journey. God bless.

 

[kira33]

What wonderful advice - I am so grateful you felt moved to respond to my post! I think I just need time to adjust (I only began attending Church and RCIA this past month). I am still grieving the loss of my past faith, and am still very much attached, constantly fighting the urge to return to it.

With regard to contemplation being only for a few - I was under the impression that we are all called to strive for the direct experience of the indwelling God, that the mystical marriage with Christ, complete immersion in God, and the perfect love and fullness of joy that the apostles and saints spoke of is not meant for only a few. When I converted, I honestly assumed that this was the core and main goal of Catholicism for all members of the Church. And I thought that in order to attain this union with God, one must center his attention solely on the things of God instead of allowing his or her thoughts to go toward the things of the world (in addition to developing Christlike behavior, renouncing all self-oriented pursuits and sacrificing one’s own needs and desires for others).

I greatly appreciate your sharing your views with me! I was especially moved when you mentioned how we should look at the love that others exhibit, not the topic of conversation - and the fact that holiness is a gift from God, not something that is generated by us! This is a great reminder for me of what is truly important. You really helped me to gain a clearer understanding of the gospel, and what true holiness is.

Again, I thank you for being willing to share your thoughts about this subject. Your insights have been most clarifying and have helped me to open my heart…

So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God.

 

[tru_dvotion]

If you notice the time of the last two posts, Kira posted at the same time I did. So her response was to Teresa’s post.

 

[mercygate]

kira33:

I am still grieving the loss of my past faith, and am still very much attached, constantly fighting the urge to return to it.

Ah, Kira. This is one of the gifts the Lord gives to us and we give to him when we come into the Church. Only another Convert who has also mourned in this way has any IDEA what this is about. But Kira, the tears you now shed are like a second baptism, united as they are to Christ in obedience to his personal call.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Hi Kira33 Some wonerful advice from Teresa and Tru. I believe your impression was correct that we are all called into that Holiness. This Holinees can only be attained if we co-opperate with His Spirit. One must die dayly to sin. We are to take on Christs nature and be His hands,feet,eyes,ears and His mind and His heart dayly.To live for Christ is to die for Christ.

 

[Teresa9]

kira33:

What wonderful advice - I am so grateful you felt moved to respond to my post! I think I just need time to adjust (I only began attending Church and RCIA this past month). I am still grieving the loss of my past faith, and am still very much attached, constantly fighting the urge to return to it.

With regard to contemplation being only for a few - I was under the impression that we are all called to strive for the direct experience of the indwelling God, that the mystical marriage with Christ, complete immersion in God, and the perfect love and fullness of joy that the apostles and saints spoke of is not meant for only a few. When I converted, I honestly assumed that this was the core and main goal of Catholicism for all members of the Church. And I thought that in order to attain this union with God, one must center his attention solely on the things of God instead of allowing his or her thoughts to go toward the things of the world (in addition to developing Christlike behavior, renouncing all self-oriented pursuits and sacrificing one’s own needs and desires for others).

I greatly appreciate your sharing your views with me! I was especially moved when you mentioned how we should look at the love that others exhibit, not the topic of conversation - and the fact that holiness is a gift from God, not something that is generated by us! This is a great reminder for me of what is truly important. You really helped me to gain a clearer understanding of the gospel, and what true holiness is.

Again, I thank you for being willing to share your thoughts about this subject. Your insights have been most clarifying and have helped me to open my heart…

So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God.

Dear friend

Thank you for your kind reply.

In being kind to others please don’t forget to be kind to yourself, it must be hard to make this step into Catholicism, I can only imagine as I was born into Catholicism. Allow yourself the time to grow naturally in the Lord without thinking suddenly you have to become a certain way. Yours is a period of transition and conversion which is amazing and difficult at the same time. Follow all that the Holy Spirit leads you to. I will keep you in my prayers.

Contemplation is for all, as to even make a step into faith in Christ, first the person by the power of the Holy Spirit is led in their hearts to contemplate Jesus and His life to then even be drawn to say a prayer to Him. Contemplation is what allows us to mimic the life of Christ to it’s full. (of course the Priest instructs us/ read scripture privately/etc etc etc… but if we do not contemplate it and take it to our hearts the instruction is useless) However how deep contemplation is varies from person to person. Some people contemplate on differing aspects of our Lord’s life and when we discuss what we have thought and contemplated, then we realise how someone may enlighten us by the Holy Spirit to some area of contemplation we had not previosuly considered ourselves. The fact remains as at the end of the Gospel of John, if truly all that could be contemplated on or could be told of our Lord Jesus Christ was ever written into books, the whole world could not hold them.

Contemplation does deepen faith, but regular contemplation is not for everyone, indeed again, contemplation is a gift from God and is not therefore in this degree for everyone, but a level of contemplation is given to us all so that the gift of faith can be fulfilled. As an enlightenment of God is the fruit of contemplation, it is all a gift from God, who choses to reveal Himself through the contemplative soul of certain individuals.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

kira33:

What attracted me most to Catholicism was Carmelite contemplative prayer and union with God, as described so beautifully by St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, and the Practice of the Presence of God which Brother Lawrence employed throughout his life.

Kira, you may be experiencing another call from God to the vocation of a Secular Carmelite, especially since you are attracted to the writings of these saints. Therein among those who are gifted with the same charism of prayer, you will find a more perfect outlet to express and share your faith, in a manner common to all in the order. Perhaps you could look into some chapters in your area. There is no obligation flowing from a visit to “come and see,” and a few meetings would help you realize whether your spirit is in communion with these members.

I am wondering if there are actually people in the Church who are sincerely striving toward holiness, desiring to glorify God with their entire lives, remembering Him not just during prayers, but all the time, every single minute - or if this is a thing of the past and/or something practiced only by saints.

Absolutely, but the form of expression will vary according to the giftedness of the Holy Spirit. In Brother Lawrence’s book, he practiced “acquired” contemplation, meaning that he was able through discipline and exercise of his mental faculties to acquire the habit of contemplating and focusing on God throughout his day.

Of itself, though, this acquired practice does not afford us the deep spirituality you desire unless God brings the person deeper through “infused” contemplation and the other gifts of prayer I’m sure you read about. That is where the true holiness is gained, together with the strength of real virtues. I need to warn you, though, that it is not a life full of delights with one spiritual high after another.

Not at all. The more one grows spiritually, the more one will experience the cross, albeit with peace. Read St. Teresa’s Interior Castle beginning with the fifth mansion, where the poor little butterfly becomes a stranger to things of earth and experiences a deep and constant hunger and restlessness, as a result of her union with God.

I know a person from Carmel who heard these words from the Lord when asking Him about this painful distress. “Foxes have dens, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has NOWHERE to lay His head.” And neither will His followers.

I pray the Lord will guide you and that you will not abandon these holy desires.

 

[DBT]

Joysong:

Kira, you may be experiencing another call from God to the vocation of a Secular Carmelite, especially since you are attracted to the writings of these saints. Therein among those who are gifted with the same charism of prayer, you will find a more perfect outlet to express and share your faith, in a manner common to all in the order. Perhaps you could look into some chapters in your area. There is no obligation flowing from a visit to “come and see,” and a few meetings would help you realize whether your spirit is in communion with these members.

I would second this thought. Kira, your story sounds very similiar to mine. Carmel has become my home . . . maybe it’s yours too!

 

[Go_Irish]

Pray with Thomas Merton

My Lord God,
I have no idea where I am going.
I do not see the road ahead of me.
I cannot know for certain where it will end.
Nor do I really know myself,
and the fact that I think that I am following your will
does not mean that I am actually doing so.
But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact
please you.
And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing.
I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire.
And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road
though I may know nothing about it.
Therefore I will trust you always though I may seem to be lost
and in the shadow of death.
I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never
leave me to face my perils alone.

 

[Binary_Paul]

Kira33, You are right in your thought that all Catholics or Christians are called to Holiness and communion with Jesus. This is an area of the Church that needs much evangelism. While obedience to the Holy Spirit and to the teachings of the Catholic Church are essential for this work to be completed, I’m not convinced that living the life of a contemplative is the only way to attain personal Holiness. Not to say whether or not God may be calling you to himself to live the contemplative lifestyle. As a married man with 10 children I have heard my God call me to unconditional love and intersession for ‘lost souls’. I simply choose to be obedient to the Holy Spirit and to surrender my free will. I was lead as a youngster by the Holy Spirit to pray my personal prayer “Jesus, make me a son you can rejoice in”. It is Jesus who has changed my heart of stone into a heart of flesh. I just had to be obedient.

It is a humbling experience to have Jesus lay the cross of His burning thirst for souls on my shoulders. I do not disserve the privilege. Yet I recognize something of the call he has for me and I know it is his work and I am just a servant. It has been a great blessing. The only limit to Holiness is the degree in which we reject our God and his requests to us to accept ourselves as the sons and daughters He created us to be in His image and likeness.

If you haven’t experienced it yet; I would highly recommend spending time before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration. Try to find a perpetual adoration chapel. While there, ask the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart and tell you what he wants.

Welcome to the mystical family of Jesus in the communion of Saints, Paul.

 

[Mysty101]

Beautiful sharing.

This is such a peaceful thread.

I have studied a few different methods lightly, but have not yet committed myself to one good course.

I have read and studied Centering Prayer by Pennington. This was a wonderful help which brought me along my journey. As Joysong said

In Brother Lawrence’s book, he practiced “acquired” contemplation, meaning that he was able through discipline and exercise of his mental faculties to acquire the habit of contemplating and focusing on God throughout his day.

This is definitely not the Contemplation of the Mystics, but a good place to start our Spiritual journey.

I have also practiced Lectio Divina–the prayerful reading of the Bible, at the Franciscan Center for Spirituality
Here’s a link to Centering (Contemplative) Prayer which includes Lectio centeringprayer.com/methodcp.htm

The most unusual experience I have had is in the Catholic Revival movement. Their prayer meeting format led by Msgr Walsh of Presentation BVM in Philadelphia was to begin with very enthusiastic Charismatic music, and then “bask in the glory”. The concept that such passionate praise would bring us closer to God, and then we would rest there. Trust me—it worked. It was a fabulous experience, and has remained with me for many yearrs.

And of course the best help:

If you haven’t experienced it yet; I would highly recommend spending time before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration. Try to find a perpetual adoration chapel. While there, ask the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart and tell you what he wants.

SuZ

 

[Joysong]

Mysty101:

Beautiful sharing. This is such a peaceful thread. Indeed it is, Mysty!

I have studied a few different methods lightly, but have not yet committed myself to one good course.

There are many ways that the Holy Spirit uses to bring us into communion with the Trinity. I quote here the inquiry love makes, from Canticles 1:7-8, “Tell me, you whom my heart loves, where you pasture your flock, where you give them rest at midday, lest I be found wandering after the flocks of your companions?” The Bridgroom answers, “If you do not know, O most beautiful among women, follow the tracks of the flock and pasture the young ones near the shepherds’ camps.”

This pasturing and preparation can take many forms, as you mentioned, and we do what we are able, as we follow the tracks laid out by the Holy Spirit and the saints who went before us.

Then in one unexpected moment, though we are most unworthy to receive, the bride says of the heavenly Bridegroom … “He brings me into the banquet hall and His emblem over me is love.” (Ch. 2, vs.4-5) Bride: “Strengthen me with raisin cakes, refresh me with apples, for I am faint with love. His left hand is under my head, and his right arm embraces me.”

God desires even more than we do, that we become holy and that the Trinity makes full abode in us. I fully believe that after we make our small human efforts, the Divine Lover of souls, will exceedingly pour out supernatural helps, bring us into the banquet hall, strengthen us with virtue, and embrace us.

May we be faithful in little things, to come to know those that are greater!

 

[Elainevw]

Hi All,
In my own small beginning I think that I understood reaching for holiness and union with God, but I think it took Him in very specific times of my life to truly enlighten me as to what holiness was and what it took to be in union with Him as a human being. One day my life as I knew it stopped, and I was suddenly separated from everything, everyone, things I just did became effort, like walking, running, leading a productive life, well what I thought was productive.

In my time of separation from the world actually, I found that I spent more and more time with my Father. More in a conversational way, familiar prayer was always a part of my life, but getting up and saying good morning Dad I would then spend the entire day just chatting…(G) During the course of my seemingly one sided conversations suddenly came responses and I thought I’ve finally lost it. My time grew and my conversations expanded including more traditional prayer, the Psalms, a good mix of each. Without even really realizing it at the same time I was gaining more and more in physical strength and indifference to the changes that had occurred in me, one day while
actually walking in the yard I had a sense that Dad was very, very close and since I was all by myself as usual I could say aloud, is that you Lord, is there something you want of me?

And no, no great voice boomed from heaven but a phrase, a small prayer came into my mind, very simple and very to the point…I love you Jesus my love, I repent of ever having offended you, grant that I may love you always and then do with me what you will. I have to admit I stuttered at the last of this and found that I really had to convince myself to utter those last words but I did. From that moment on there were many many times when trials arose, joys, simple occassions, things I did but couldn’t like visit the sick and become a Minister of Holy Communion bringing Him to the home bounds …I was tottering but I was walkng and it hurt but my energy on these days even overwhelmed me…I guess my point is not in what I have managed to accomplish being disabled to a degree, but that the more I repeated that little phrase, the more I released me, the more Jesus was released in me and the more I heard Him speaking to my heart, in the hum of daily conversation, in the nature that surrounded me, in the silence of my room, in the trumoil of life, in adoration, at mass, et al.

To this day I repeat this prayer every morning, and everyday there is something, not always pleasant but always embraced in a way that never before existed in my life…I can’t say that I consider myself particularly holy but I’m filled with peace, no one gets to me anymore, I am more charitable then I have ever been with my time and whatever assets I have, I do what I’m told tho sometimes I squint when something moves my heart and there is a love for others that I cannot explain, even if there are some I may not like I find that I can love them anyway cause they are His as well. I am more alive then ever.

I don’t know if this is part of achieving what the topic asks, I don’t know if I truly care that much anymore to find out, and I don’t mean that flippantly, I mean…do with me what you will has become a carefree request, I’m no longer concerned with what may be asked, if God asks of me then whatever or however I see myself He has inside information about me that suggests He wouldn’t ask if He didn’t know I couldn’t do it or couldn’t see Him
in it. Union can be a reverent familiarity I guess.

Balance and order in our lives, service and surrender, Holiness and Union with God…hmmm maybe it’s just letting Him be God and saying in one way or another, My heart is ready, let’s do it your way. All ways that are for the Glory of God, towards God’s will unite us more closely to Him and with His grace holiness replaces our human limitations. The Eucharist…oh here is union.

God bless,
Elaine

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Mysty101:

I have read and studied Centering Prayer by Pennington. This was a wonderful help which brought me along my journey. As Joysong said
This is definitely not the Contemplation of the Mystics, but a good place to start our Spiritual journey.

I have also practiced Lectio Divina–the prayerful reading of the Bible, at the Franciscan Center for Spirituality
Here’s a link to Centering (Contemplative) Prayer which includes Lectio centeringprayer.com/methodcp.htm

Dear Kira33,

I strongly second SuZ’s suggestion to get involved in centering prayer. In Wichita, Contemplative Outreach (the organization that runs the website above) holds weekly meetings in several places. Please check to see if there are meetings in your area because at least in our area they play videotapes from CO which explain the spiritual journey, contemplative prayer, how the false self behaves and how the Holy Spirit dismantles it, etc. If you like Pennington then you’ll like these guys because they were involved with Pennington in developing Centering Prayer after the method described in the wonderful book Cloud of the Unknowing. If you can’t find a local contact, PM me and I’ll get you one because I’m involved with these people.

If you haven’t already read Cloud of the Unknowing, you will definitely want to get this beautiful masterpiece of contemplative love written by an anonymous author in the 14th century; you can taste of an excerpt online at amazon.com (I’d link to it but for some reason right now I can’t get through to amazon. Contemplative Outreach also has a wonderful 3-tape video series on the Cloud by Fr. Meninger, that hopefully your local CO contacts can hook you up with, or you might even see if your diocese office has a video library with it.

Alan