Striving for holiness and union with God

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Sorry to burst on the centering prayer fuzzies, but I have to disagree.

Centering Prayer: Catholic Meditation or Occult Meditation?

What others say about centering prayer:

The Danger of Centering Prayer by Rev. John D. Dreher

Centering prayer meets the Vatican - Part 1, by Dan DeCelles

Centering prayer meets the Vatican - Part 2, by Dan DeCelles

Is Centering Prayer Contemplation? by Jonnette S. Benkovic

[Embraced by the River of Light, Centering prayer](http://www.dotm.org/winter99.htm#EMBRACED BY THE RIVER OF LIGHT II)

Catholic Meditation or Occult Meditation?

Related Articles:

JUNG REPLACES JESUS IN CATHOLIC SPIRITUALITY by Paul Likoudis

THE NEW AGE MYSTIC: DIFFERENT PATH, SAME GOD? by Randy England

MENTAL PRAYER by Fr. William Most

Let the Son shine: The truth about the new age movement
 
Dear friends

This is a beautiful thread, I agree. Elaine your piece of writing here especially touched my heart. I always find when we are most weak in any way, it is Our Lord who then is strong in us and turns weakness into strength.

One other thing that has struck me is that each person experiences Jesus in a very personal and unique way. This not only highlights to me the uniqueness and individuality of all people, but the many facets of our Lord Jesus,of God our Father and of the Holy Spirit. That another’s way is not necessarily your way, that my way is not necessarily your way and that your way is not necessarily my way, but all ways are through the one door, Our Lord Jesus and all of these ways He has led us on in the Holy Spirit.

When first I began contemplation, I didn’t even know what I was doing was called contemplation, it just felt the natural and right thing to do. I find in all things now I am contemplating, it is a way of life and rather than withdraw me from people and the activities of life, the contemplation is part of this life, contemplating in all things and at all times.

God Bless you all and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Teresa9 said:
all ways are through the one door, Our Lord Jesus and all of these ways He has led us on in the Holy Spirit.
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I beg to differ with you Teresa. Not “all ways” lead to Christ. If you would have red half of the links I provided, you would have to agree, not “all ways” lead to God.

Luke 12: Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. 52 From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; 53 a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." 54 He also said to the crowds, "When you see (a) cloud rising in the west you say immediately that it is going to rain–and so it does; 55 and when you notice that the wind is blowing from the south you say that it is going to be hot–and so it is. 56 You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky; why do you not know how to interpret the present time? 57 "Why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?
 
Dear tru devotion

You are right not all ways lead to God, but all ways which are under the Magesterium of Rome and do not EVER conflict with that are ways to God and this is what I meant in my post. I am sorry I should have been more explicit in my wording, thank you for pointing this out.

Having said that, do not decide to keep the old in favour for the new and miss out on what is beneficial. I am not interested in the centering prayer as I do not feel it has a place in my Catholic worship. I prefer to adhere to contemplation and refelction and set prayer sna d my own free worded personal prayer. I am concerned that what is secular and viewed as harmless can indeed be harmful, therefore I would be wary of any practice that is not based solidly on what has been steeped in Catholic history.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear friends,

Please remember that if anyone disturbs your peace, there is an “ignore” option.

SuZ
 
Dear Teresa,

I am glad you have not subscribed to centering prayer. The Magesterium has issued warnings about blending Eastern techniques in with Catholic contemplative prayer. In one of those links I provided, there is a warning from Cardinal Ratzinger on this very topic. So the Magesterium has spoken, the question is, are people taking notice?
 
Dear tru devotion

Thank you for your post, though I will say that what you say is a twisting of scripture. If you read my post it would have been evident that I meant prayer within the authority of the church. Am I a fool who would dare in all my human error to presuppose I can recommend other than Rome? In the zealous heart is a pride that lurks deeper and more serious than that of the heart that knows nothing of our Lord, in that heart is more to worry about than in the heart that never crosses the door of a church, that heart that is within the walls of Rome has much asked of it and that heart cannot then presume to hold authority within itself but within the head of the church that is Jesus christ and whosoever thinks themselves invested thereof to then admonish the striving juvenile, first should look back to where they once themselves trod and find that path of hardship was only lit by the Lord and those He sent to light their way, speak little and therefore preach even less should we fall foul of our own teachings, those who err against their own teachings err worse than those who hold therein their heart and gently as Mary, guide.

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear tru devotion

Thank you for your post, though I will say that what you say is a twisting of scripture. If you read my post it would have been evident that I meant prayer within the authority of the church. Am I a fool who would dare in all my human error to presuppose I can recommend other than Rome? In the zealous heart is a pride that lurks deeper and more serious than that of the heart that knows nothing of our Lord, in that heart is more to worry about than in the heart that never crosses the door of a church, that heart that is within the walls of Rome has much asked of it and that heart cannot then presume to hold authority within itself but within the head of the church that is Jesus christ and whosoever thinks themselves invested thereof to then admonish the striving juvenile, first should look back to where they once themselves trod and find that path of hardship was only lit by the Lord and those He sent to light their way, speak little and therefore preach even less should we fall foul of our own teachings, those who err against their own teachings err a worse error than those who do not and hold therein their heart and gently as Mary, guide.

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear Teresa,

The quote from scriptures has nothing to do with the topic. My intent was to remind you that peacemaking should never be at the cost of truth. Teresa you validated each previous post when you wrote: “That another’s way is not necessarily your way, that my way is not necessarily your way and that your way is not necessarily my way, but all ways are through the one door, Our Lord Jesus and all of these ways He has led us on in the Holy Spirit.”

When I start out on a road with bandits lurking in the bushes, who will be my friend? The one who wishes me a good journey and lets me go on my way or the one who warns me, better not take that road, there are bandits lurking?

Jesus said, “Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division!” In Matthew 10: “I have not to come to bring peace, but a sword.” This is tough stuff. What did he mean? Did he not also say in Matthew 5:9: “Blessed are the peacemakers?” If we read the preceding and following verses, we get a clue: “I came to cast fire upon the earth!” What is fire? Fire is God’s instrument of judgment. Fire destroys the unrighteous and purifies the righteous. When he speaks about division among families, he is warning us, it will not be an easy fight. Peace without justice and truth is nothing more than no open conflict.

There is a personal application to this. One can be at peace yet be lacking in truth. When people are not personally disturbed by untruth they are still in a state without truth. When people fail to speak out against untruth, there is lack of personal conflict, still there is no truth.

Jesus does give peace to his followers. But his gift of peace is at a price, because he had to enter into conflict with evil in order to give us his peace. Jesus calls us to make peace between people. But this means that sometimes we have to sacrifice interpersonal peace before we can arrive at true peace: Peace with justice and truth. That means we have to make divisions. We have to divide between right and wrong. People do not like this.

We say, “Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through him.” But we have to back those words up with actions. That means for me, we don’t have to talk only, we also have to act. There are issues dividing families and congregations. Friendships are strained because someone has stood up for the Gospel. People will hate you for telling them that they are wrong or what they do is wrong. That is just fine. Many hated Jesus for the same reason.

Yes I agree with you. Not everyone is at the same point on their spiritual journey. But this is a Catholic apologetics forum. People read these posts and take some of them to heart. Many of those who wrote in about centering prayer are in leadership roles, catechists, RCIA leaders. In other words, they are responsible for the faith formation of others. In fact, the original poster was looking for spiritual advice. Half a dozen responses encouraged her toward centering prayer. We have a responsibility to her as well. Interesting you brought up Mary. Our Holy Mother, the gentlest and most loving of all creatures would have never compromised the truth to spare people’s feelings or to keep the peace. God bless!
 
First of all Centering Prayer is Christ centered. It is not one of the Eastern Prayer methods which are discouraged. Our Pastor gave the book to all the volunteers one Christmas.

As with any serious move in our prayer life, one should have some Spiritual direction. A Spiritual Director would be best, but if one is not available to you, then be certain to speak with your confessor. Frequent confession is always a good idea, but even more so when striving for a deeper prayer life.

SuZ
 
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tru_dvotion:
In fact, the original poster was looking for spiritual advice. Half a dozen responses encouraged her toward centering prayer. We have a responsibility to her as well.
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I agree with you, friend. In our zeal to share what has worked well for us spiritually, sometimes we overlook prudence in rendering advice without discerning the way Our Lord is working within the person to whom we give it.

Kira mentioned that she is a convert, and as such, she has a great deal to learn about our faith and grow in understanding of its riches. When she shared that she has been reading the works of carmelite saints, it seems likely that God is leading her in that direction, based on her personal inclinations and desires to stay with their writings.

It seems to me it would confuse her by suggesting other spiritual ways that God has not opened up for her. The author of *Cloud of Unknowing *cautioned that his method was only for the *few *who encounter that particular attraction, and it is for someone far more advanced in spirituality than perhaps where Kira is at this moment. Attempting to apply these techniques would destroy the delicate progression in spirituality that God is leading her.

Having read and studied in depth, the works of the carmelites, and since the Church holds these writings up as a safety net for Catholics, by elevating them to the status of “Doctor,” my hope is that Kira would stay with their teachings.
 
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Joysong:
Having read and studied in depth, the works of the carmelites, and since the Church holds these writings up as a safety net for Catholics, by elevating them to the status of “Doctor,” my hope is that Kira would stay with their teachings.
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Considering Kira’s comments in her original post, this is very good advice. The obvious attraction she feels toward the Carmelites is strikingly similiar to my own experience. While I started with St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, I soon found myself straying into all sorts of contemplative “digressions” from what I now see as my call.

After about a year of this, I decided to talk to my priest . . . which turned out to be a very providential thing for me. Based on where I was in my spiritual life at that time, his advice was very simple - stick with the writings of the Doctors of the Church. Equally important, he said I should stick, for the time being, with the writings of the Carmelites since that was what prompted my enthusiasm about contemplative prayer in the first place.

Of course in my zeal I wanted to jump head long into the Secular Order but he advised me to test the validity of that call over time. He had me start living certain aspects of the Rule of Life (specifically Morning and Evening Prayer from the Liturgy of the Hours) and build from there. After a year of prayerful reflection and daily discipline, I felt ready to enroll as an aspirant in the Secular Order.

I don’t know whether or not God is calling Kira to Carmel but I do know, at least from her original post, I was exactly in her shoes at one point in time. I’m a convert too . . . but it took 10 years before I made it to Carmel.

Hopefully this helps . . .
 
Dear friends

I didn’t recommend centering prayer nor was my post about differing ways in prayer in any way related to it as I have said in my subsequent posts. Thank you

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Teresa9:
I didn’t recommend centering prayer nor was my post about differing ways in prayer in any way related to it as I have said in my subsequent posts. Thank you
Teresa
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I know that. Hopefully I didn’t offend you . . . that certainly wasn’t my intent. In fact, I always enjoy your posts 🙂 .

I only said what I said because Kira’s emphasis on the Carmelites seemed to stand out to me.
 
Dear friend

No you have not offended me and neither has anyone else 🙂 . Thanks for confirming you knew I was not recommending that form of worship. I don’t like misunderstandings to hang in the air without things being clarified.

Phew! so now that’s sorted … I wish you all the best Kira, whether Carmelite charisms are for you or not, it is definite you will be led by God to exactly where He wants you to be, it’s just keeping intune with the Holy Spirit and listening in your heart to Him.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you all

Teresa
 
I am completely overwhelmed with the number of responses to my post. I am profoundly grateful that each one of you felt moved to answer my questions, and in such great depth! I am deeply touched by your kindness and caring. Your guidance has inspired me to continue to pursue my interest in consecrated life, and to serve the Lord in whatever state of life He calls me to.

It has been very beneficial for me to reflect upon the fact that holiness and virtue as well as union with the Lord are given by God to the extent that we are willing to conform our lives to His will - and that these graces are not the result of implementing a certain technique or method. Thank you for this clarification!

Rather than focus upon methods of contemplation, I think that as someone new to the faith, it may be more important for me to concentrate on relinquishing my negative tendencies
and performing service to others while striving to develop Godly qualities. At the same time, I find that my time spent in contemplation of God is what has been most instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism, and is what gives me the most joy.

I sense that it may be a good idea for me to get a spiritual director to help me learn how to pray, as I was involved with Eastern mysticism for almost 20 years. Though I try my best to stick with the method of prayer taught by St. Teresa of Avila, I am concerned that I may be inadvertently incorporating Eastern meditation techniques when praying.

I want to thank you all for being willing to help me discern God’s will for my life. I have been greatly served by the wisdom you have so graciously shared with me.

With immense gratitude in Christ,

Kirsten
 
Teresa,

Actually, the persons who posted the information about centering prayer were Alan and Mysty. I probably should have named them, but their posts were buried too far down in the thread, so I did not look it up. I assumed the follower of these posts would know that it was not you who advocated this prayer form.

That may be a good method for Alan and Mysty, but perhaps not for Kira. For the present, she has her hands full trying to grow in the newness of our faith. She was also seeking to grow in holiness and questioned the validity of those things she learned in her other faith, as she mentioned here:
With regard to contemplation being only for a few - I was under the impression that we are all called to strive for the direct experience of the indwelling God, that the mystical marriage with Christ, complete immersion in God, and the perfect love and fullness of joy that the apostles and saints spoke of is not meant for only a few.
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And Kira, if you are still following along, YES this is for all, but as you read in St. John of the Cross, few prepare themselves for God to bring them to this state, something he greatly lamented.

As you have seen in the scriptures (Jn. 14:21 and 23), Jesus made an explicit promise that: “He” who loves Him and keeps His words, Jesus will manifest Himself to him, and make His abode in him. “He” is anyone, including YOU! Good news!
 
Dear tru_devotion,

Do you have any personal experience or knowledge about centering prayer? The links you gave show that the authors have an incomplete understanding of the topic at best, if not an emotional reactionary view of it. For example:
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tru_dvotion:
The Danger of Centering Prayer by Rev. John D. Dreher
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This author falsely characterizes centering prayer as a form of self-hypnosis, making use of a “mantra.” To the uninformed it may sound like that, but Keating and others have explained this very well and show that the “sacred word” is far from a mantra. Dreher says:
Dreher:
The effects are a hypnotic-like state: concentration upon one thing, disengagement from other stimuli, a high degree of openness to suggestion, a psychological and physiological condition that externally resembles sleep but in which consciousness is interiorized and the mind subject to suggestion.
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This guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Quite the contrary, the emphasis of centering prayer is not to concentrate on anything, and the “sacred word” itself means nothing in particular, unlike the so-called “mantra” and the entire prayer form involves resistance to suggestion.
Centering prayer meets the Vatican - Part 1, by Dan DeCelles
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This article also mischaracterizes centering prayer. Anyone who has looked into this deeper than the surface level knows that centering prayer does not “promise” contemplation at all, much less “quick access to God.” The author correctly indicates that contemplation is not a prayer form, but a gift from God. Centering prayer does not claim to be contemplation, although it does help condition one by trying to achieve interior silence which invites contemplation.
Is Centering Prayer Contemplation? by Jonnette S. Benkovic
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This article quotes from the other anti-centering prayer article in its strange claim that centering prayer makes some sort of “promise” of contemplation. It correctly states that centering prayer proponents say it is based on the ancient Cloud of the Unknowing, which itself says that “techniques” cannot bring about contemplation. That’s correct, and it is why centering prayer makes no promises on behalf of the Holy Spirit as to whether and to what extent He will move at any given time to any given centering prayer practitioner. Then it goes to refute the alleged claim that centering prayer is like the “Jesus prayer.” The objection is accurate in that the “Jesus prayer” is a complete thought, and is precisely why correct teaching on centering prayer, including the Cloud of the Unknowing itself, specifically instruct that such a phrase should not be used for the “secret word.” Therefore the accurate argument that the two are not the same doesn’t speak against centering prayer, but to those who are sufficiently ignorant to think they are the same thing.

(continued)
 
[Embraced by the River of Light, Centering prayer](http://www.dotm.org/winter99.htm#EMBRACED BY THE RIVER OF LIGHT II)
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Again, the false claim that centering prayer uses a “mantra” and refer to “an attempt being made” to compare it with the Rosary. Some may compare the Rosary and the “sacred word” used in CP, but not those who are informed. This article gives an anecdote about “Kristy” who got scared at bedtime. She was using “centering prayer” on her own at bedtime. Contemplative Outreach teaches the method using trained and certified intructors, so I don’t know what went wrong with Kristy – if in fact it had anything to do with centering prayer – but I do know that beginners in CP are specifically warned by certified teachers and by books on CP that it may not be a good idea to do this at bedtime because it could disturb sleep patterns.
Catholic Meditation or Occult Meditation?
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This article says "CP devotees claim it to be … by repeating sacred words or sentences such as ‘Jesus I love you.’ " Again, an informed CP devotee would not have said this because “Jesus I love you” would be a very poor substitute for a sacred word and as another article you referenced above said, it is a complete thought and therefore wouldn’t work right.

This article say CP is a “turning-inward and pre-occupation with self awareness, consciousness-raising and the achieving of preternatural experiences.” In reality it is quite the opposite. It is involved with a complete “losing” of the false self and is compatible with Jesus’s intructions to go into our “inner room” to pray and to deny our very selves. It does not raise consciousness, but suppresses conscious thought. I’ve never heard of the “preternatural” experiences, unless the author means the Holy Spirit.
Several of the articles above claim CP is “new age” or “the new kid on the block” of contemplative prayer forms. One article seeks to dissociate CP from its origins in the 14th century Catholic book the Cloud of the Unknowing. I challenge anybody to show me how, specifically, centering prayer does not follow the intent of the Cloud. I’ve read the Cloud twice after watching Meninger’s 3-tape series on it. Those who don’t understand CP or have not been properly instructed in it may certainly see similarities to other practices that may be problematic, but so far I’ve heard no credible evidence against it.

Alan
 
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