Striving for holiness and union with God

[AlanFromWichita]

Joysong:

Actually, the persons who posted the information about centering prayer were Alan and Mysty. I probably should have named them, but their posts were buried too far down in the thread, so I did not look it up.

Dear Joysong,

You are right; it was we who brought it up. No problem for me with mentioning it.

That may be a good method for Alan and Mysty, but perhaps not for Kira.

Possibly true, but it also might inded be for Kira as well. That is why I provided resources, and above defended it against a typical anti-CP attack. I hate to see people searching for deeper faith denied the opportunity for using this wonderful tool for reaching a deeper prayer life because they were frightened by claims based on ignorance of correct teaching on CP or knee-jerk reactions against what they don’t understand. BTW, I’m not saying this of tru-devotion, but to the supposedly knowledgeable authors of articles cited in previous posts.

Alan

 

[tru_dvotion]

Hello Alan,

**Sorry, I have no time or interest in dissecting each of those articles with you. First of all, I have no personal interest in centering prayer, secondly, even if you find sufficient flaws in those articles, there are plenty more articles against it. There are priests and religious who believe in it, and there are priests and religious who are dead set against it. There is sufficient argument against it for me not to subscribe to it. However, if you have a personal and vested interest in it, you may wish to study New Age a bit closer, because that is where centering prayer fits. **

---

… the April 4-7 consistory at the Vatican of the … John D. Dreher Centering prayer is
essentially a form of self … That’s why God warns us to test everything rather…

saint-mike.org/library/Occult/New_Age.html

ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/ARINNEWM.TXT

LIKOUDIS JUNG PSYCHOLOGY ENNEAGRAM DREAMS CENTERING PRAYER 23. … Issued May 3, 1986 by the Vatican Secretariat for … Lawrence Welsh Bishop L. Welsh warns people of

ewtn.com/library/indexes/NEWAGE.htm

 

[DBT]

PLEASE let’s not let this thread degrade into another battle over Centering Prayer . . . just my opinion, but this isn’t the time or place for that kind of debate.

Maybe I’m wrong but I’m seeing a certain spark in Kira’s posts . . . I’d hate to see that snuffed out over bickering.

Alan and Tru, I’ve read alot of your posts and I know where you’re both coming from. I also know your hearts are in the right place. But it also sounds like Kira really has her head on her shoulders . . . so let’s try to use this thread to encourage her

 

[AlanFromWichita]

kira33:

It has been very beneficial for me to reflect upon the fact that holiness and virtue as well as union with the Lord are given by God to the extent that we are willing to conform our lives to His will - and that these graces are not the result of implementing a certain technique or method. Thank you for this clarification!

Dear Kirsten,

I agree it is not based on a certain technique or method, and that Jesus will bless those who follow His will. I don’t know that we can have any particular formula, though, like “if I do X good works for Y amount of time I will get Z graces from God.” I know you didn’t say that, but some think these sorts of things are subject to a formula. Different people grow spiritually at different rates, based on the Holy Spirit moving in their lives. Some are converted suddenly like Saul to Paul. Others take many years to gradually build holiness.

I sense that it may be a good idea for me to get a spiritual director to help me learn how to pray, as I was involved with Eastern mysticism for almost 20 years. Though I try my best to stick with the method of prayer taught by St. Teresa of Avila, I am concerned that I may be inadvertently incorporating Eastern meditation techniques when praying.

This sounds like a great idea. My life changed obviously and for the better about ten minutes into my first meeting with a spiritual director.

Do consider checking out that book Cloud of the Unknowing. If it initially doesn’t move you, don’t read it but I’ve read it twice and from the way you write I think it just may speak to you. I recommend the version by Johnston sold at amazon.com, or you can download a public domain version of it in .rtf format from wordsfree.org/. If you want to skip right to the beginning, search for “**Here beginneth a book of contemplation”
**
Alan

 

[tru_dvotion]

Thank you DBT, the same thought occurred to me. Especially since Kira herself identified having been influenced by eastern philosophy. I will butt out of this one. I do not believe the topic deserves time and effort anyway. Also I apologize for the awful dark lettering in my previous post. I tried to reset it but the links ruled the outcome.

 

[DBT]

Hi Tru -

I’m not asking anyone to butt out. I’ve seen you and Alan both be very helpful to a lot of people on this forum and I’m sure Kira could benefit from both your viewpoints.

There’s a time and place for a battle of this kind . . . but this just doesn’t seem like that time.

 

[Elainevw]

Kira,

It’s easy to have tons of suggestions, but remembering when new I can understand that at times so many things are offered it puts your head into a spin. Tho I haven’t been “new” for ages
I can honestly suggest simplicity is among the greatest advance towards your relationship with the Father. As far as holiness, we are all called to this and since that is truth then we can be assured that God, since he is the end of this call will provide a
beginning at each level we attain or strive for, because it is not a
one time effort on our part, but daily.

There were alot of things mentioned, St.John of the cross, St.
Theresa, the Interior Castle…Contemplative Prayer and Centering
Prayer. St. John of the Cross was writing from a confined space with no contact with others, he was writing from where he was, St. Theresa was writing to her sisters, St.Augustine wrote from a life of sin and his awakening to grace. Every dear saint or individual that has discovered how to come closer to God has done so through their own experiences, not to deny their endeavors were heightened by the Holy Spirit as well as guided in their quest, tho the same is different in their time and disposition and circumstance then any of ours. We learn from these more times then not after we have simply taken the invitation from Jesus to come to know him and his place in us, personally and let him lead us in our particular direction in him. St.Ignatius offers Spiritual Exercises that as well open our minds and hearts and even lead us into contemplation of the life of Christ, the Scriptures, Death, the importance and purpose of our existence, he too is good.

Simply put all of us before we walked, crawled, before we ran we
walked, it’s similar in prayer I believe…the perfect prayer is the Our
Father, this is the what, when asked of Jesus to teach them how to pray he shared, who better to know how to pray then to whom all prayer comes. Prayer is us communicating with the Father,
in all forms, in all concerns but in the midst of all our prayer is one undeniable truth, the Father knows our hearts, our needs before we even ask, what in our prayer we do is go to him, acknowledge our need of him and desire to allow him to be the center of our lives, he wants to have communication with his children, prayer is what and how we accomplish this. He doesn’t make it complicated and confusing, sometimes we do that in our fervor to achieve a greater closeness. Whatever the vehicle of prayer it is,
it is “God tirelessly calling each person to this myterious encounter with Himself.” Prayer unfolds throughout the whole history of salvation as a reciprocal call between God and man…Cathechism 2591. Keep it simple to begin with…Here I am Lord in Jesus name. The invocation of the name of Jesus is the simplest way of praying always, by a humble and attentive heart the prayer is not lost by heaping up empty phrases but holds fast to the word that brings forth fruit. This prayer is possible at all times.

God bless,
Elaine

 

[Elainevw]

Tru…

(Jesus said, “Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division!” In Matthew 10: “I have not to come to bring peace, but a sword.” This is tough stuff. What did he mean? Did he not also say in Matthew 5:9: “Blessed are the peacemakers?” If we read the preceding and following verses, we get a clue: “I came to cast fire upon the earth!” What is fire? Fire is God’s instrument of judgment. Fire destroys the unrighteous and purifies the righteous. When he speaks about division among families, he is warning us, it will not be an easy fight. Peace without justice and truth is nothing more than no open conflict.)

Ouch! …(sorry haven’t figured out the quote thing yet…)

the Meaning: Christ is a sign that is rejected, his aim is not to provoke dissension, but this becomes inevitable as a result of the strict alternatives he offers…Matt 10

Pretty much he was talking about renouncing self to follow him.
Which the following statements enlighten one to the meaning of the first.
‘Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take up his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it’…37-39

One definition of fire also includes the fire of the Holy Spirit, the fire that cleanses and consumes one toward their following of Christ…but the preceding and following verses of what you posted are…Happy are the pure in heart; they shall see God, after, Happy those who are persecuted in the cause of right; theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Fire does destroy the unrighteous but when as purifier is not judgement, but redemption.

I apologize for perhaps not following well, but to be very honest and without malice, everytime people “pick out” passages from scripture they tend to become disconnected to the point where their actual meaning takes on only a personal view. And often as weapon rather then insight.

I have to admit that I don’t clearly understand all of what you write,
but in essence if I am even close I can see that you are directing us to stand firm in following Christ regardless of what or who or whatever, I agree,but I’m concerned with how it may be possible to mislead someone unfamilar with the word of God as it is being used.

The peace that we are given is God’s own peace…it allows us to withstand the trials and temptations of the Evil One and whatever his tactics be unshaken in our trust and surity that God is with us.
The peace he gives is not of the world, so are you talking human peace or God’s peace. Peace of Christ was surity of his purpose, as is the peace given us a surity of our purpose and allows us to perservere until he comes again. I can’t earn it, it’s a gift, but what
I can do is enter it and remain steadfast in my following of Christ
because of it. Jesus as God/man didn’t have to earn anything it was always All his and always will be.

God bless,
Elaine

 

[Elainevw]

OOPs…in rearranging forgot to delete same paragraph, please disregard the repetiton…oh thank you Lord for my imperfections.
How they humble me…sorry all.

God bless,
Elaine

 

[Danie_Bordo]

I like the question…now where shall I start? I’ll not be as precise as you. You’ll find I just ramble…as my thoughts unfold…everything pertains to God…and when we live in Sanctifyig Grace, He unfolds events He wishes us to experience moment by moment…to quote St. Theresa, “He makes me desire the gifts He wants to give me.” even the temptations are a gift.

When I was growing up my Mother told us to start the day by offering it to God. Everything of this day I offer to You My God, and then go about the business before you. Of course we must avoid the near occasion of sin always…be attentive and He will help you…gently remind those around you when they fail. Do everything lovingly…

 

[Joanna]

kira33:

I am a recent convert to the Catholic faith, having been converted from a religion that advocated constant remembrance of God, austerity & renunciation, praying without ceasing, performing all actions as a service to God and directing every thought, word and deed towards the Lord (doing nothing at all for my own pleasure), conforming my life to His will.

After reading many books about the Catholic saints, and seeing a great similarity between my previous faith and theirs, I decided to convert to Catholicism, looking forward to fellowship with those having a similar level of devotion to God. What attracted me most to Catholicism was Carmelite contemplative prayer and union with God, as described so beautifully by St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, and the practice of the presence of God which Brother Lawrence employed throughout his life.

Most of the Church members (including professed religious) I have been blessed to interact with seem to be quite ‘worldly’, spending a great deal of time talking about things completely unrelated to God and not being very reverent or focused on things of the Lord. Even conversations which start out spiritual don’t go very deep and turn towards things of the world shortly thereafter. I’m left with a very intense longing in my heart and a sense of unfulfillment. I feel so sad in my heart about this.

I am wondering if there are actually people in the Church who are sincerely striving toward holiness, desiring to glorify God with their entire lives, remembering Him not just during prayers, but all the time, every single minute - or if this is a thing of the past and/or something practiced only by saints.

I pray that I have not offended anyone, as I do not wish to criticize or judge others, especially when I am so imperfect myself.

You are not alone. Don’t let that deter you. Keep praying and looking to the example of the saints. It’s God who’s drawing you and you will draw others. There is that “cloud of witnesses” looking on even when you can’t see that witness in those around you.

I’ve moved a great deal and in every place God has drawn me to a small group of saintly people. My problem has often been that I see a beauty in each of these people and compare myself to them as a whole. It’s like striving to be a composite of all of them. I’m always found wanting. My growth seems rather meeker. Actually this has not been a bad thing because I should be comparing myself to Jesus anyway. Next to Jesus’ example we all pale. I do realize my friends see a beauty in me and they often let me know it. I’m praying that the Lord will send you some soul companions to help you along the way.

I think one reason God may have had me move so often is so as not to become attached to this help and to seek Him for Himself all the more. He has also shown me His face in a miriad of faces, all of which are so different from one another’s, yet all resemble His.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Elaine,

First I would like to applaud your response to Kira.

Regarding my quoting the Bible, yes you are right about isolating passages, however, it was the quickest response I could come up with for the I am ok, you are ok, we are all ok approach. It was misread anyway, perhaps, because it did not fit all that well, so I could have explained myself in plain English in the first round. Still, it is a sobering thought that Christ did not bring peace into this world, and even his message of peace brought more division. We have division all right; all we have to do is look around this site. And I am not even thinking of anger or rude behavior, I tend not to waste my time with those posts anyway. I am referring to the divided opinions of those people, who have good intentions and who are not short of social graces either. There is a definite orthodox and modernist camp here as well as in the Church. I long to be Universal again!

 

[Teresa9]

Dearest Kira

I was just wondering if you are still following this thread and if it has been of any assistance to you. I hope so, although as you have seen people differ in their opinions, all of them have tried to assist you and helped you as best as they can.

Just because people don’t see eye to eye doesn’t mean they do not get along.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[sharonvanecek]

Please find relavent radio in your area - Catholic radio. It has bonded me with other orthodox Catholics and reenergized my faith. In the Chicago area it is 820 am. Love, In love with the Catholic Church

 

[faith_ful1953us]

This thread took a strange turn but I wanted to suggest that the original poster look into Catholic conferences in her area. In my own parish, I feel as she does. I see no outward signs that people in church feel deeply about the Lord. Yes, I know that sounds judgemental. They may be very spiritual in thier own way, but it does not come through to me and I feel very alone in my passion for Christ. I am not fed, spiritually in my parish. I thank God that I can look forward to gathering with other Catholics with the purpose of celebrating our faith. I go to Wichita, Kansas in July, outside Chicago in September, Vandalia, Illinois in October, and the Marian Conference at St. Louis in January.
here are a couple of resources for you:

catholicresourcecenter.org/

catholic.com/seminars/schedule.asp

maybe “google” for the Marian conferences.
But surround yourself with like minds. It keeps me going.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I feel very alone in my passion for Christ. I am not fed, spiritually in my parish. I thank God that I can look forward to gathering with other Catholics with the purpose of celebrating our faith.

Dear faithful,

Are you doing your part in your parish or in your community? You heard the old saying don’t tell us what we can do for you; instead show us what you can do for us… How do you perceive your passion for Christ? Does your passion translate into action? Real passion for Christ comes through service. There are so many with so many needs. Some have material needs, some have emotional needs and some have spiritual needs. What did Christ do? He served the needy. Can we as his followers do any less? If all we are good for is hanging out with like minded people, we have no real passion… only an attraction to an ideal that we conjured up ourselves. In the service of the needy you will be more likely to find others, whose hearts are aflame with the passion for Christ.

 

[Starflower]

My spiritual director prays before takes a phone call, when I talk to him I frequently see his lips moving in prayer. He is a diocesan priest that was once a Franciscan friar. I wouldn’t be surprised if he prayed in his sleep. As a person he is wholesome andwell disciplined. I am blessed to have his guidance and prayers. It would be wonderful if Christians prayed more often with each other on the phone and when they meet casually.

 

[Teresa9]

tru_dvotion:

Dear faithful,

Are you doing your part in your parish or in your community? You heard the old saying don’t tell us what we can do for you; instead show us what you can do for us

… How do you perceive your passion for Christ? Does your passion translate into action? Real passion for Christ comes through service. There are so many with so many needs. Some have material needs, some have emotional needs and some have spiritual needs. What did Christ do? He served the needy. Can we as his followers do any less? If all we are good for is hanging out with like minded people, we have no real passion… only an attraction to an ideal that we conjured up ourselves. In the service of the needy you will be more likely to find others, whose hearts are aflame with the passion for Christ.

Dearest Tru

You are right that the manifestation of following Christ is to do good works, we all must do this, this poster may well do this, but I understand what she is saying, she feels spiritually lonely. Everyone needs like-minded people around them who can help each other grow in their spirituality, otherwise we would have the Priest come to our homes and celebrate Mass, but we don’t we all go to our Father’s house and meet together to celebrate Mass.

Dear Faithful

Maybe friend, there are some groups at your church where you can get to know other people in your parish and get to know how they live their faiths and you may find , especially among the older generation of the church a deep history and lots more spirituality than you first thought. You cannot see the deepest thoughts and love of Christ, someone has to talk to you about those, and they can only do that if you get to know them. Talk to people and get to know them, they will surprise you!!

Pray and ask for a friend who thinks like you, who shares your spirituality…you will get one!

God Bless you and much love and peace to you both, Tru and Faithful

Teresa

 

[Starflower]

My spiritual director prays before takes a phone call, when I talk to him I frequently see his lips moving in prayer. He is a diocesan priest that was once a Franciscan friar. I wouldn’t be surprised if he prayed in his sleep. As a person he is wholesome andwell disciplined. I am blessed to have his guidance and prayers. It would be wonderful if Christians prayed more often with each other on the phone and when they meet casually.

 

[martha_martha]

kira33:

Rather than focus upon methods of contemplation, I think that as someone new to the faith, it may be more important for me to concentrate on relinquishing my negative tendencies and performing service to others while striving to develop Godly qualities. At the same time, I find that my time spent in contemplation of God is what has been most instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism, and is what gives me the most joy.

and this tells me, my sister in Jesus, that you are on a right road.

keep seeking.