Struggling with Marian Prayers

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This is my last post on this thread as the pro-Marian devotion posts are getting ridiculous.

If you pro-Marian devotion fanatics could read the posts of others without so much emotion tangling up your thinking, this whole thread would make a lot more sense.
 
Thank you everyone for all of the helpful feedback about this subject. I did not intend for this to become a debate about Mariology but rather a thread for those in the same boat as me to find some advice and guidance on how to more fully understand Marian Devotion.
 
Hi Athanasius,

Again, I appreciate your passion on the subject… I will mention that I only referenced the findings of one papal commission which found unanimously not to pursue these titles because of their ambiguities and the difficulties they create. This commission was convened under Pope St John Paul II… the commission also references Pope Pius XII - a pre-VII pontiff. I also quoted St JPII’s moderating thoughts on the subject.

There were actually three other papal commissions convened by Pope Pius XI in 1920, again pre-VII. That fact should end the debate about whether this is a post VII issue… Agree?
These three commissions - one Belgian, one Spanish and one Roman - were asked to study the Mary mediation, yet even then the issue was set aside.

I think the one “theologically squishy” point is summed up nicely by Dom Columba Marion…".it is not clearly contained in the deposit of divine revelation. Mary’s mediation was not explicitly stated in scripture, only vaguely implied by some church fathers, and insufficiently supported by arguments of fittingness.

If there were a reference to the deposit of faith that substantiated the claims, I’d love to hear and see it. The reality is that this movement to define an elevated role for Mary is really a product of the last century. I recommnend Gloria Falcao Dodd’s History and Theology of the Movement for a Dogmatic Definition from 1896 to 1964 for much greater detail.

So we have multiple Popes, Saints and pre-emininenty Marian scholars and theologians weighing in on the subject with a contrary opinion.

I appreciate trading thoughts with you on the subject… I won’t wade further in. I think we have to agree that you and many believe in this idea and that I and many do not.
 
Nick_Russell said:
Thank you everyone for all of the helpful feedback about this subject. I did not intend for this to become a debate about Mariology but rather a thread for those in the same boat as me to find some advice and guidance on how to more fully understand Marian Devotion.
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Sadly, just about every thread about Mary eventually ends up this way.😦

Just remember-
Pray as you can, not as you can’t. What is important is that you pray! 😃

And don’t ever let anybody tell you that your private “prayer” is wrong. If they do, repeat above statement. 😛

Peace be with you on your journey!
 
godisgood77 said:
…
I think the one “theologically squishy” point is summed up nicely by Dom Columba Marion…".it is not clearly contained in the deposit of divine revelation. Mary’s mediation was not explicitly stated in scripture, only vaguely implied by some church fathers, and insufficiently supported by arguments of fittingness. …
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It is a dogma of faith that the saints intercede for us, and certainly the Blessed Virgin Mary is included certainly, per the Immaculate Conception and Assumption dogmas. Also from Catholic Encyclopedia: "To intercede is to go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other. " Yet, some want to restrict the use of mediation only to Christ and the word intercede to angels and saints.

Council of Trent (Session XXV):

the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honour of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ
 
Vico said:
It is a dogma of faith that the saints intercede for us, and certainly the Blessed Virgin Mary is included certainly, per the Immaculate Conception and Assumption dogmas. Also from Catholic Encyclopedia: "To intercede is to go or come between two parties, to plead before one of them on behalf of the other. " Yet, some want to restrict the use of mediation only to Christ and the word intercede to angels and saints.

Council of Trent (Session XXV):

the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers to God for men. It is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, and help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour. Those persons think impiously who deny that the Saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invoked; or who assert either that they do not pray for men, or that the invocation of them to pray for each of us is idolatry, or that it is repugnant to the word of God, and is opposed to the honour of the one Mediator of God and men, Jesus Christ
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I fully agree that Mary and the Saints pray with us and for us to God…Please don’t take my comments that way… The quote I posted was specifically in reference to the Mediatrix of all Graces Question. Not asking the saints to pray for us.

My wife, children and I pray a rosary daily… I’m just compelled in conscious to speak up on this topic as my family has been put in a position before where we are castigated for not agreeing to some devotions. That’s all…
 
Bonnie said:
This is my last post on this thread as the pro-Marian devotion posts are getting ridiculous.

If you pro-Marian devotion fanatics could read the posts of others without so much emotion tangling up your thinking, this whole thread would make a lot more sense.
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How incredibly sad that posts take such turns. I am very sorry to read that indeed.
 
Athanasius_1 said:
But I’m also aware that devotion to the Rosary is somewhat waning today, primarily due to some of the attitudes expressed in this thread.
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It may also be waning because Vatican 2 opened the door and invited any who were interested, to join the Church in the celebration of the other official liturgy of the Church - the Liturgy of the Hours.
 
godisgood77 said:
I fully agree that Mary and the Saints pray with us and for us to God…Please don’t take my comments that way… The quote I posted was specifically in reference to the Mediatrix of all Graces Question. Not asking the saints to pray for us.

My wife, children and I pray a rosary daily… I’m just compelled in conscious to speak up on this topic as my family has been put in a position before where we are castigated for not agreeing to some devotions. That’s all…
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Sorry to hear you were castigated. People can be so thoughtless.

I think what includes more than the current dogmas, is that term mediatrix which integrates her participation as Mother of Jesus Christ, her consent given at the Annunciation, and her state as defined in the dogma of Immaculate Conception. The eastern traditions especially emphasize the Annunciation.

Dom Marmion though that the *timing was not good *for this proposed dogma of mediatrix, and that it would have tragic consequences in countries influenced by Protestantism.

Reference: The Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces … by Gloria Falcão Dodd
 
what is quite sad is that you don’t know what you’re missing!!!
quite a few years ago, I am sorry I cannot remember where I read it or who
said it…the author was mentioning that some people who are atheists and maybe’s
and maybe nots in belief of God are products of an ill or bad parental father.
with that thought, maybe it’s time to do some soul searching, or heart/mind
searching. like how is your relationship with women who have authority over you?
how is your relationships with women in your life? how do you feel about women, period?
did you have an ill or berating or take it out one the kids mom? we’re all human, some of
us better at it or better at our roles in life. if any of this rings a bell may God help you
to forgive her,

often in our lives we criticize what we don’t understand.
 
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