Struggling with Marian Prayers

[tp3192000]

Okay. But calling her Mediatrix of All Graces goes overboard. And as I reiterated she is not my Savior.

Maybe she is and maybe she is not. But, she is the mother of your savior and co-worker in salvation. So why don’t you cut her some slack, as she is only human, and your mother too, after all.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Maybe she is and maybe she is not. But, she is the mother of your savior and co-worker in salvation. So why don’t you cut her some slack, as she is only human, and your mother too, after all.

I repeat: Mary is my mother but she is NOT my Savior. As another poster said, “Christ alone is enough.”

 

[tp3192000]

I repeat: Mary is my mother but she is NOT my Savior. As another poster said, “Christ alone is enough.”

Good for you. Someday, when my end has come, Jesus may rightfully say, “TP, you are a worm and have been a sinner all your life, so off to hell with you.” But, perhaps Mary will come to my defense saying, “Son, please have mercy on this one; he is my child.” Who will be my savior then?

 

[godisgood77]

Good for you. Someday, when my end has come, Jesus may rightfully say, “TP, you are a worm and have been a sinner all your life, so off to hell with you.” But, perhaps Mary will come to my defense saying, “Son, please have mercy on this one; he is my child.” Who will be my savior then?

God

 

[tp3192000]

God

If Mary throws you a lifeline to be saved by God, is she not instrumental in your salvation also?

 

[johnnyc176]

I abandoned my faith for roughly 7-8 years and came back to the Church in August of 2015. Since then I have been reading a lot of Theology and Apologetics. After all of the reading and praying I am having a hard time with Marian Prayers. My parish has a Mother of Perpetual Hope devotion after Mass on Tuesday nights, which I stay for but I just feel awkward saying the prayers. I have no problems with the teachings on Mary, It just feels like a guilty conscience when i say the prayers. I continue to pray for understanding and growth about this subject so I thought I would reach out to people on the forums.

Thanks for the help!

Scott Hahn and the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology is providing a free Bible study called The Bible and the Virgin Mary.

bibleandthevirginmary.com/streaming/

It may help you overcome your obstacle. Of course you are not required to ask Mary and the saints for intercession but really you are missing out on some beautiful spiritual benefits.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Good for you. Someday, when my end has come, Jesus may rightfully say, “TP, you are a worm and have been a sinner all your life, so off to hell with you.” But, perhaps Mary will come to my defense saying, “Son, please have mercy on this one; he is my child.” Who will be my savior then?

The concept that the Blessed Virgin is more attentive or engaged in the salvation of souls than God who became incarnate to affect the redemption rapidly becomes very problematic…in terms of theology, in terms of Mariology, and most especially in terms of soteriology.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Good for you. Someday, when my end has come, Jesus may rightfully say, “TP, you are a worm and have been a sinner all your life, so off to hell with you.” But, perhaps Mary will come to my defense saying, “Son, please have mercy on this one; he is my child.” Who will be my savior then?

No offense, but that is simply bad theology. That is not what will happen when we die.

He will either say, “Come blessed of My Father,” or “Depart from Me you accursed.”

 

[Bonnie]

Good for you. Someday, when my end has come, Jesus may rightfully say, “TP, you are a worm and have been a sinner all your life, so off to hell with you.” But, perhaps Mary will come to my defense saying, “Son, please have mercy on this one; he is my child.” Who will be my savior then?

That bothers me. I’ve read similar, that Jesus has no mercy, and without Mary to stay his hand we would all end up in hell. I had hoped that that idea had died out, but I guess not.

 

[tp3192000]

The concept that the Blessed Virgin is more attentive or engaged in the salvation of souls than God who became incarnate to affect the redemption rapidly becomes very problematic…in terms of theology, in terms of Mariology, and most especially in terms of soteriology.

Soteriology; I had to look that one up, Father. I am not saying that Mary is more, only that she is a partner, set up by her son in the business of saving souls. There is no question that she has brought me closer to Jesus Christ her son. This is not problematic.
I would also like to point out that I would very much like to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, but I would need instruction on how to do it properly. Even then, I do not know if I could properly pray it within my busy day. The Rosary, on the other hand, is easy to pray and requested of me by Our Lady of Lourdes. As you have been so attached to Mary as you have said, I do not understand your objections to my posts.

 

[tp3192000]

No offense, but that is simply bad theology. That is not what will happen when we die.

He will either say, “Come blessed of My Father,” or “Depart from Me you accursed.”

Oh, you know what God will say. I already suspected that.

 

[tp3192000]

That bothers me. I’ve read similar, that Jesus has no mercy, and without Mary to stay his hand we would all end up in hell. I had hoped that that idea had died out, but I guess not.

Jesus has mercy. He also has Mary.

 

[Vico]

Okay. But calling her Mediatrix of All Graces goes overboard. And as I reiterated she is not my Savior.

The Church teaches “Christ the one Mediator” and Blessed Virgin is Mediatrix with salvic duty of constant intercession which neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ.

1. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*) - Lumen Gentium

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Soteriology; I had to look that one up, Father. I am not saying that Mary is more, only that she is a partner, set up by her son in the business of saving souls. There is no question that she has brought me closer to Jesus Christ her son. This is not problematic.
I would also like to point out that I would very much like to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, but I would need instruction on how to do it properly. Even then, I do not know if I could properly pray it within my busy day. The Rosary, on the other hand, is easy to pray and requested of me by Our Lady of Lourdes. As you have been so attached to Mary as you have said, I do not understand your objections to my posts.

I have a very deep love for the Blessed Virgin. She has had, has, and (I trust) will always have a singular and unique place in my life and in my ministry. By God’s gracious gift, I have had a number of very special opportunities related to Our Lady in the life of the Church over the decades. In the years I was a professor, I enjoyed exceedingly lecturing in Mariology…be it the course that I wrote or when I would give an individual lecture on some topic in Mariology.

That said, I wrote what I have written in this thread because there needed at times to be a theological clarification on a point that simply could not be left unqualified when a theologian was looking on…almost exclusively on points others have also expressed concern, wonderment and, at times, dismay.

The admonition of the Council Fathers in Lumen Gentium was a very precise one to theologians, to preachers and to all the faithful: that the expressions of Marian piety and devotion had to be “within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine” and devoid of “gross exaggeration”.

This was not said by over 2000 bishops gathered in ecumenical council without reason and purpose. In the course of the centuries, there have been images and expressions that the Church has heard that she has said are not well considered or could be misapplied or convey ideas beyond the mind of the Church…and this especially in later centuries concerning the Blessed Virgin. This is not the place to go into some of the more astonishing theories and remarkable expressions of, for example, the late middle ages. I will leave that to the classroom where it can be contextualised and where students have (one hopes) the solid ground work of fundamental theology and rudimentary philosophy.

I am in no way attacking you and I am sorry if you perceive that I am; that is not my intention.

I venture that every Catholic, if they have attained even a certain minimum age, has asked Mary to pray for them at the hour of their death at least at some point in their lives. Many do it every day. There is no doubt that, in such a critical and definitive moment, the prayers of the Mother of Jesus will be a most precious treasure to each of us as we depart this life. Asking her prayers for that moment above all is a commendable thing to do.

One has to be careful however, for theology’s sake, in employing images which convey a greater interest on the part of Mary in a soul reaching Heaven than of Jesus. Or that Mary has a greater capacity for mercy, compassion, and understanding than God Himself. Theologically, I can explain what underlies the image, popular in certain schools of spirituality (notably the French) and among certain famous preachers in the Church’s history. It is an evocative image, if very carefully and judiciously applied, that can speak to the human person on an experiential level of the balance between justice and mercy. But it is an image that is a very tenuous one because it can be misunderstood or extended in very detrimental ways.

The Second Person of the Trinity assumed a perfect human nature in the mystery of the Incarnation, in the womb of the Virgin Mary. He lived among us as a man. He taught us by word and example. He instituted the sacraments. He founded the Church. He gave us His Mother as a spiritual entrustment…she to us and we to her.

More than that: As the Saviour and Redeemer, He died for us. As Saint Thomas Aquinas says, in His death, because He was God, He could die for each and every individual…from Adam and Eve to the last man and last woman in human history. As God in human flesh, He knew each of them. And He knew each and every sin that His death was atoning for. The love of God is infinite. The mercy of God is infinite. The knowledge of God is omniscient. God is love. Mary is utterly singular as a human person…but she is a human person. She is not God.

I am more grateful to the Blessed Virgin for her prayers, her love and her presence in my life than I could begin to write. But…I am more indebted to God than I am to Our Lady. He is the author of my salvation. He is my Creator. He is my Redeemer. He is my Sanctifier. He is my God and my All. He is the One who created the Blessed Virgin and put her into my life. Theological precision cannot be sacrificed to imagery that ill expresses the truth it is trying to illuminate. And in the expressive language we employ, we must be careful that truth is not obfuscated.

I am not trying to discourage you from your Marian devotion. But theology also requires me to step in for the sake of those troubled by expressions that seem, to them, out of proportion.

A final point…the rosary is a perfectly wonderful devotion. There is no need for regret that it can be more and better integrated into your prayer life than the Liturgy of the Hours. It is for that reason that the rosary has existed, continues to exist and will always exist “in this valley of tears”. It seems well suited to nourish your spiritual life as well as your relationship to the Divine Trinity and to the Blessed Virgin.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Soteriology; I had to look that one up, Father. I am not saying that Mary is more, only that she is a partner, set up by her son in the business of saving souls. There is no question that she has brought me closer to Jesus Christ her son. This is not problematic.
I would also like to point out that I would very much like to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, but I would need instruction on how to do it properly. Even then, I do not know if I could properly pray it within my busy day. The Rosary, on the other hand, is easy to pray and requested of me by Our Lady of Lourdes. As you have been so attached to Mary as you have said, I do not understand your objections to my posts.

It is wonderful that Our Lady has brought you closer to Jesus. We see this beautifully depicted in the Gospel, as she presents Him to the shepherds and magi, who find Jesus in Mary’s arms. Many find Jesus through Mary. Of course, there are also other experiences…the woman at the well in Samaria. Or the Twelve. Each of these also foreshadow how souls encounter the Lord Jesus for the first time.

I have a very deep love for Our Lady. She has had, has, and (I trust) will always have a singular and unique place in my life and ministry. By God’s gift, I’ve had many special opportunities related to Our Lady in the life of the Church over the decades. In the years I was a professor, I enjoyed teaching Mariology…be it the course I wrote or when I would give an individual lecture on a topic in Mariology.

That said, I wrote what I wrote in this thread because there needed at moments to be a theological clarification on a point that simply could not be left unqualified when a theologian was looking on…on points others also expressed concern, wonderment and, at times, dismay.

The admonition of the Council Fathers in Lumen Gentium was precise to theologians, preachers and all the faithful: that the expressions of Marian piety and devotion had to be “within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine” and devoid of “gross exaggeration”.

This was not said by over 2000 bishops gathered in ecumenical council without reason and purpose. In the course of the centuries, there have been images and expressions that the Church heard that she has said are not well considered or could be misapplied or convey ideas beyond the mind of the Church…and this especially in later centuries concerning the Blessed Virgin. This isn’t the place to go into some of the more remarkable theories & expressions of, for example, the late middle ages. I’ll leave that to the classroom when it can be contextualised and where students have (one hopes) the solid ground work of fundamental theology & rudimentary philosophy.

I’m in no way attacking you and I’m sorry if you perceive that I am; that is not my intention.

I venture that every Catholic, if they’ve reached a certain minimum age, has asked Mary at some point in their lives to pray for them at the hour of their death. Many do it every day. There’s no doubt that, in such a critical and definitive moment, the prayers of the Mother of Jesus will be a most precious treasure to each of us as we depart this life. Asking her prayers for that moment above all is a commendable thing to do.

One has to be careful however, for theology’s sake, in employing images which convey a greater interest on the part of Mary in a soul reaching Heaven than of Jesus. Or that Mary has a greater capacity for mercy, compassion, and understanding than God Himself. Theologically, I can explain what underlies the image, popular in certain schools of spirituality (notably the French) and among certain famous preachers in Church history. It’s an evocative image, if very carefully and judiciously applied, that can speak to us on an existential level of balancing justice and mercy. But it is an image that is a tenuous one since it can be misunderstood or extended in very detrimental ways

The Second Person of the Trinity assumed a perfect human nature in the mystery of the Incarnation, in the womb of the Virgin Mary. He lived among us as a man. He taught us by word and example. He instituted the sacraments. He founded the Church. He gave us His Mother as a spiritual entrustment…she to us and we to her.

More than that: As the Saviour and Redeemer, He died for us. As St. Thomas Aquinas says, in His death, because He is God, He could die for each and every individual…from Adam & Eve to the last man & woman in human history. As God in human flesh, He knew each of them. He knew each and every sin that His death was atoning for. The love of God is infinite. The mercy of God is infinite. The knowledge of God is omniscient. God is love. Mary is utterly singular as a human person…but she is a human person. She is not God.

I am more grateful to Our Lady for her prayers, her love and her presence in my life than I could begin to write. But…I am more indebted to God than I am to Mary. He is the author of my salvation. He is my Creator. He is my Redeemer. He is my Sanctifier. He is my God and my All. He is the One who created Our Lady and put her into my life. Theological precision cannot be sacrificed to imagery that ill expresses the truth it is trying to illuminate. And in the expressive language we employ, we must be careful that truth is not obfuscated.

I am not trying to discourage you from your Marian devotion. But theology also requires me to step in for the sake of those troubled by expressions that seem, to them, out of proportion.

A final point…the rosary is a perfectly wonderful devotion. There is no need for regret that it can be more and better integrated into your prayer life than the Liturgy of the Hours. It is for that reason that the rosary has existed, continues to exist and will always exist “in this valley of tears”. It seems well suited to nourish your spiritual life and your relationship to the Divine Trinity and to Our Lady.

 

[tp3192000]

Theological precision cannot be sacrificed to imagery that ill expresses the truth it is trying to illuminate. And in the expressive language we employ, we must be careful that truth is not obfuscated.

Thank you, Father.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Oh, you know what God will say. I already suspected that.

I have the word of Jesus himself.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

That bothers me. I’ve read similar, that Jesus has no mercy, and without Mary to stay his hand we would all end up in hell. I had hoped that that idea had died out, but I guess not.

Amen.

 

[godisgood77]

If Mary throws you a lifeline to be saved by God, is she not instrumental in your salvation also?

If you throw a prayer for me, then you were an instrument as well. However, I don’t believe God changes his mind… so the only prayer I would ask for is the knowledge of and obedience to God’s will… I’ll take all of the lifelines I can get

 

[Nick_Russell]

First, welcome back.

I think it is very important to know and to be at peace with the fact that not everyone is comfortable with every devotion. I have known people who absolutely love the rosary and never tire of praying it while I have known very prayerful souls for whom the rosary would be the most tedious spiritual exercise they could undertake.

As a previous poster said, you are not obligated to Marian devotions. Not everyone will develop a strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Thanks be to God, you do not have issues in giving the assent of faith to the Marian dogmas and that is what is fundamental.

It is also important to be patient and to give yourself time. You have only been back for five months. Relationships with people, whether that person is on earth or is in heaven, can take a very long to grow into something real and significant.

Since you manifest a joy in reading theology, I would recommend to you a text I used when I was a professor of Mariology back in my teaching days. “Mary and the Fathers of the Church : The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought,” since you say that you would to explore this subject further. It is by the very wonderful Father Luigi Gambero who, sadly for us but happily for him, finished his earthly pilgrimage about three years ago now and I trust is now with the Blessed Virgin, about whom he wrote so well and so eloquently.

The book does present theological concepts and it is not a light read but I think it is nevertheless imminently readable and readily comprehensible, even if you have not studied philosophy or theology. It begins with the Apostolic Fathers (i.e. the Sub-apostolic Church) and takes you to the eighth century. It explores the evolution of Marian devotion in the early Church and provides you the opportunity to read primary source texts. The mystery of the Theotokos for the Fathers of the Church could only be understood in the light and reflection of Her Divine Son. By reading the book, you will also, by necessity, work through aspects of Patristic Christology.

In this way, you have the opportunity to see Mary through the eyes of the early Church and come to know her as they did. The patristic concept of Mary as the New Eve, for example, was of great import to Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman in his journey to the Church of Rome. I don’t know what you have read but I think you might find this text more useful than the pious works of Marian devotion that may be of less benefit to you.

Marian devotion in the Church – East and West – takes many forms and expressions. Perhaps the prayers you encountered are of a style not suited to you. Obviously, I do not know the particular devotions your parish employs…but I have more than a passing acquaintance with the devotions used publicly in honor of Our Mother of Perpetual Help and there are certain ones, popularly in use, where the prayers’ compositions could easily not accord with the sensibilities of various people. Perhaps I presume too much to think that might be the issue you confront.

In any event, this book may help you to find something more to your taste and, at least, will help you to better understand the thought of Mary in the Early Church, which remains perennially valid, informative, and important. God bless you.

Thanks a lot for the advice and book suggestions. Since I posted this question my feelings have begun to change about the subject. I continued to pray for understanding and my feelings of discomfort or guilt have subsided. I forgot to edit the post and say it was the Mother of Perpetual Help devotion. The wording is what throws me off. It just sounds so “worship-ish” if that makes sense? Thanks again!