Struggling with Marian Prayers

[Elizium23]

• Daily Mass and daily Communion
• Weekly Confession
• A weekly or even daily holy hour before the Most Blessed Sacrament
• Daily meditation on the Passion of Christ or the walking of the Stations of the Cross
• Daily reading of Sacred Scripture
• The praying of the Liturgy of the Hours, at least Morning Prayer, Evening Prayer and Night Prayer.

It is impossible to cultivate a devotion to Daily Mass, Sacred Scripture, or Liturgy of the Hours without having it lead to devotion to the saints. It is impossible to cultivate a devotion to the Passion and Stations of the Cross without having it lead to the Mother of God.

Unless you only attend Mass on ferias. And stop up your eyes and ears to avoid hearing/reading Scripture about the Saints and Mary. And that would include St. Moses, St. Elijah, St. Daniel the Prophet. Even the OT would be a thin volume if we omitted the lives of the saints. Imagine the kind of skipping around we would have to do to edit Mary from the NT!

Perhaps we’re getting hung up on semantics here. I consider it “having devotion” to honor a saint. That’s a different thing than “practicing specific devotions” such as prayers to Our Mother of Perpetual Help.

Saying that one can have a robust prayer life without invoking the saints smacks of protestantism at its finest. If you want to go directly to Jesus all the time, don’t you dare ask your friends or family to pray for you. And don’t pray for them. Because that’s participation in the Communion of Saints.

The saints speak to us through the stories of their lives, through their writings, through the prayers that the Church has composed. I find it absurd that a human being can be without devotion to even a single saint. Surely there must be one, or some, that resonate in your life, that you look up to, admire, aspire to holiness because of their examples. Surely as you cannot go through life without speaking to your family, your friends, your neighbors, you cannot go through this life without praying to saints, even if you only invoke them in times of need or distress. It would be folly to concentrate so singularly on Jesus that you ignore His holy ones.

 

[Bonnie]

God is always speaking to you. You just have to choose to listen.

:tiphat:

Right. That’s the sort of thing I mean. If I’m not hearing anything from God, then it’s all my fault. What if he has nothing to say to me directly? I learn about God & life from people - directly or from books. That is not a relationship. But I don’t expect more than that. It’s other people who think I ought to be different from what I am. I don’t think God hates me (as one poor CAF regular does), but I don’t expect God to talk with me, send me visions, or whatever. I read the Bible, I read what Catholics (saints or not) have said about Christian living, and I think I’m doing fairly well.

If you’ll remember the readings from Sunday, the Body of Christ is made of all sorts. You can’t expect a liver to function as a heart.

 

[Elizium23]

Prayer does not have to come in formalized formulaic words. Nor do messages from God come in fiery visions. The Communion of Saints works in mundane and sometimes imperceptible ways.

I cultivate devotion to saints merely by reading about their lives. I meditate on their holiness and consider how I could grow to be more like them.

My home is littered with prayer cards. I don’t actually recite the prayers on the back, except for maybe once when I pick them up. I’m quite lazy about it. I use them for bookmarks and very cheap home decoration. But every once in a while I stumble across one, hold it and behold it, and my devotion deepens.

When I visit a church, I like to see lots of images to keep my eyes busy. I allow one or two to capture my gaze and I consider the person it represents while I participate in Mass. In fact this is one of the poverties of my home parish in that my position in the choir prevents me from this pious practice and has me instead considering who in the assembly is the most attractive.

I like to watch movies about my favorite saints. I especially like Catholic ones which reflect virtues of holiness, but the other night I endured “Decline of an Empire” which was supposed to be about Saint Katherine of Alexandria but instead was nearly unwatchable. I felt shame for Katherine who was so poorly represented in this kind of trash.

So I am actually quite lazy in my devotion to saints, and even to Mary, but to neglect them would be like neglecting breathing because eating should keep us alive well enough.

 

[drforjc]

practicing a devotion to Mary, i.e. the Rosary, prayers to OL of Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, etc= a pious practice and a good thing, so long as it fits with one’s spirituality and one is not “forced” to participate.

Yes, I think we agree on that. As I stated above, that devotion can be and should be integrated into our entire spirituality, and I think my example of Mother Theresa is a good example. She is aware of Our Lady’s love and intercession and it just kind of naturally shows itself in little ways like the little line I quoted.

 

[godisgood77]

It is impossible to cultivate a devotion to Daily Mass, Sacred Scripture, or Liturgy of the Hours without having it lead to devotion to the saints. It is impossible to cultivate a devotion to the Passion and Stations of the Cross without having it lead to the Mother of God.

No it is not impossible. As evidenced by the good Catholics contributing to this thread.

P.S. - That is not what the Church teaches either.

 

[tp3192000]

As I stated above, that devotion can be and should be integrated into our entire spirituality, and I think my example of Mother Theresa is a good example. She is aware of Our Lady’s love and intercession and it just kind of naturally shows itself in little ways like the little line I quoted.

I have learned in this thread from Father Ruggero that it is not necessary to love our Blessed Mother to be a good Catholic. Even so, it seems that she and the saints will lead us to better understanding of our faith. From a recent video I watched on the Marian Association of the Immaculate Conception website (Stockbridge, Massachusetts) I learned a little about Mother Theresa, soon to be a saint. The short sentence that Jesus uttered on the cross, “I thirst”, was heard clearly by his mother and she explained through a revelation to Mother Theresa how it meant that he thirsted for souls and for people to come to him. Mother Theresa had this saying plastered in every chapel of her missionaries.

 

[historybrat]

I have learned in this thread from Father Ruggero that it is not necessary to love our Blessed Mother to be a good Catholic. Even so, it seems that she and the saints will lead us to better understanding of our faith. From a recent video I watched on the Marian Association of the Immaculate Conception website (Stockbridge, Massachusetts) I learned a little about Mother Theresa, soon to be a saint. The short sentence that Jesus uttered on the cross, “I thirst”, was heard clearly by his mother and she explained through a revelation to Mother Theresa how it meant that he thirsted for souls and for people to come to him. Mother Theresa had this saying plastered in every chapel of her missionaries.

I would seriously and with charity recommend that you reread Father Ruggero’s posts as you seemed to have missed a great deal. No where did he say that it is not necessary to love the our Blessed Mother.

What Father Ruggero and a quite a few other stated is that personal devotions are just that personal, and will vary from person to person. People are draw to different devotions for different reasons. As long as those devotions are in line with the Church’s teachings, who are we to tell others what personal devotions they should do and which ones they shouldn’t?

I think it would do everyone a great good to remember that doing or not doing a particular act of devotion does not automatically equal loving or not loving a particular saint.

 

[tp3192000]

I would seriously and with charity recommend that you reread Father Ruggero’s posts as you seemed to have missed a great deal. No where did he say that it is not necessary to love the our Blessed Mother.

From what other posters have said about their lack of feelings for our Virgin Mother and the the defense put forth on their behalf, I do not see how I have misread Father Ruggero’s posts.

“Beyond the essentials, there is tremendous latitude when it comes to living Catholicism.”
“One must give the assent of faith that Our Lady is (1) the Theotokos, (2) perpetually virgin, (3) the Immaculate Conception, and (4) assumed body and soul into Heaven.”

I understand that there is no requirement to participate in any particular devotion such as the rosary. I respect the posts that Father Ruggero has made and expect that he will correct me if what I have said is disrespectful or incorrect.

 

[otjm]

The word love, as St. Paul uses it, means to make a choice for another; that is, to be selfless towards another.

It appears that some are using the word “love” in regards to the saints and to Mary as an emotional word.

One can love Mary without having an emotional attachment to her. That may be hard for some to process - which does not make them bad people, or less “enlightened”, but when one has used the word to describe emotional attachments they may have to the aforesaid, it makes conversations something like two ship passing in the night.

I have not attended a Mother of Perpetual Help devotion as an altar boy since some time in 1960, and I suspect that last time I attended one of them from the pew was prior to 1964. Having attended as many as I did, I suspect that I could again sing some of the songs and recite some of the prayers almost from memory; but I would have to lie like a rug to say that it was a devotion I was attracted to. So I can thoroughly relate to the OP.

On the other hand, I do have a strong emotional attachment to the LOTH, which comes from 2 years spent in college seminary.

Each person needs to spend time in prayer. Whether that is daily Mass, or the LOTH, or the rosary, or a special devotion such as Our Lady of Perpetual Help, or time speaking to Christ or the Father, or the Holy Spirit, we need to make time to pray; the alternative too often is to be a “Sunday Catholic” and be secular the other 6 days. Daily prayer is not a requirement of the Church, except for the ordained, professed religious and perhaps those in 3rd orders. But it certainly is most highly recommended, and it is up to us individually to determine what and how we do that.

 

[babochka]

I agree. What I got from some posters is that devotion = love = devotions (prayers, etc). But what is love? Some of us - perhaps born this way or resulting from past experiences - do not love indiscriminately. While I can talk (pray) to saints, they do not talk to me. Nor does God. There is no relationship in the normal human sense.

So to suggest that one must love - whether it be God, Mary, other saints, the pope - is counterproductive. Apparently I’m not a “real” Catholic if I cannot come up with the correct emotions. I went through that in the Pentecostal church - never again will I be manipulated that way.

You shall love the Lord God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus himself tells us that we are required to love God, Mary and all the saints - it is the greatest commandment. We tend to equate love (and devotion) with feelings or emotions, but in this sense, love is not a feeling, but a virtue. Our actions toward God and others determine whether we have love, not merely the emotions that we experience.

 

[godisgood77]

Jesus himself tells us that we are required to love God, Mary and all the saints - it is the greatest commandment. We tend to equate love (and devotion) with feelings or emotions, but in this sense, love is not a feeling, but a virtue. Our actions toward God and others determine whether we have love, not merely the emotions that we experience.

He said to love all… when you single out anyone person or group (including Mary and the Saints) you actually misrepresent the meaning of the command. If you can point out anywhere Jesus says specifically to love Mary or any of the other saints, I will gladly stand corrected

 

[babochka]

He said to love all… when you single out anyone person or group (including Mary and the Saints) you actually misrepresent the meaning of the command. If you can point out anywhere Jesus says specifically to love Mary or any of the other saints, I will gladly stand corrected

He said to “love your neighbor as yourself”.

How can Mary and the saints not be included in “all”. I singled them out because they were the subject being discussed.

He also said to love you. And the nosy neighbor who is a pain. And the homeless guy asking for money. And Saddam Hussein. I didn’t single them out because they weren’t relevant to the discussion. Mary and the saints are the subject matter at hand, so I mentioned them specifically.

 

[HelenRose]

He said to love all… when you single out anyone person or group (including Mary and the Saints) you actually misrepresent the meaning of the command. If you can point out anywhere Jesus says specifically to love Mary or any of the other saints, I will gladly stand corrected

I often think that people, men especially, relate to Mary in the same way they relate to their own mothers and judge Mary by that. If they don’t want their own mother in their life they would naturally not want Mary.

 

[godisgood77]

How can Mary and the saints not be included in “all”. I singled them out because they were the subject being discussed.

He also said to love you. And the nosy neighbor who is a pain. And the homeless guy asking for money. And Saddam Hussein. I didn’t single them out because they weren’t relevant to the discussion. Mary and the saints are.

That’s not my point. of course they are included in ‘all’. However, the conversation is about devotion and veneration. You are using a universal command to justify a requirement to special devotion and veneration… which is a non-sequitur

 

[godisgood77]

I often think that people, men especially, relate to Mary in the same way they relate to their own mothers and judge Mary by that. If they don’t want their own mother in their life they would naturally not want Mary.

Interesting… I haven’t encountered that.

 

[babochka]

That’s not my point. of course they are included in the royal ‘all’. However, the conversation is about devotion and veneration. You are using a universal command to justify a requirement to special devotion and veneration… which is a non-sequitur

It is a universal command to each of us to love individuals.

He didn’t say “all” - that was your word. He said to “love your neighbor as yourself” . This is not “all”, but “each”. It logically follows that if we are to love our neighbor, and even, to use Christ’s own example, a Samaritan, that fellow Christians are also our neighbor. If we believe in the communion of saints, we understand that those who have gone before us, Mary and the saints, must be included in the command.

 

[HelenRose]

Do we assume that Jesus’ response to His mother reflects our own responses to our mothers?

I believe that the devotion that the Church has given Mary has been God’s way of elevating women. She is loved and given all due respect as the Mother of God.

Civilizations that look upon their mothers as mere objects to carry a child (or abort a child) will soon cease to respect women in general. Women who look upon their mothers as superfluous will have little respect for themselves. Men who look upon their mothers as superfluous will respond to other women the same way.

Mary made a covenant with God without asking for approval from her father, her fiancé, a brother, a priest or society at large. She said “Yes” as a free person with a mind and soul or her own. This is an amazing act of courage, strength and faith. Are we not to recognize this and just pat her head and say, “What a sweet lady.” She was a woman of strength, courage and intelligence.

She is worthy of our devotion. She is the Queen of Heaven as Revelations describes.

 

[godisgood77]

It is a universal command to each of us to love individuals.

He didn’t say “all” - that was your word. He said to “love your neighbor as yourself” . This is not “all”, but “each”. It logically follows that if we are to love our neighbor, and even, to use Christ’s own example, a Samaritan, that fellow Christians are also our neighbor. If we believe in the communion of saints, we understand that those who have gone before us, Mary and the saints, must be included in the command.

We’re really parsing words her. Neighbor/all can be used interchangeable in this circumstance… unless you want to debate who is/isn’t our neighbor?

As I stated earlier, of course Mary and the other saints are included in that. The non-sequitur is using this universal command as a means to require special veneration. By special, I mean beyond what is included in the Church’s public prayer and official teaching. I know we are going way deep here… we should return to the simple truth.

I think we are actually pretty close in our beliefs…there are definitely two tendencies, those that want to continually amplify Mary and the saints and those the continually attempt to trim excesses… both obscure the truth on the subject.

 

[Bonnie]

It appears that some are using the word “love” in regards to the saints and to Mary as an emotional word.

One can love Mary without having an emotional attachment to her. That may be hard for some to process - which does not make them bad people, or less “enlightened”, but when one has used the word to describe emotional attachments they may have to the aforesaid, it makes conversations something like two ship passing in the night.

That’s what I’ve been trying to say - you said it better!

I tend to equate “love” with the emotion. The flowery, sentimental prayers and hymns often addressed to Mary reinforce that.

For me, there is no emotional aspect to my worship of God, or veneration of any saints, including Mary. I suspect I’m not alone in that, but after some of the responses here I’m not surprised that people don’t want to talk about that.

The emotional, lovey-dovey people might ask me why I am a Catholic. My answer - because I am better off as a Catholic than I was as a Protestant or with no church affiliation. Attending Mass & praying from a sense of duty may sound cold to some, but as in the words of a good old Protestant hymn, I have decided to follow Jesus.

 

[babochka]

?

As I stated earlier, of course Mary and the other saints are included in that. The non-sequitur is using this universal command as a means to require special veneration.

But I didn’t do that. The general theme of this thread is about special devotion and venerations, but I was replying to a specific post, which said this:

I agree. What I got from some posters is that devotion = love = devotions (prayers, etc). But what is love? Some of us - perhaps born this way or resulting from past experiences - do not love indiscriminately. While I can talk (pray) to saints, they do not talk to me. Nor does God. There is no relationship in the normal human sense.

So to suggest that one must love - whether it be God, Mary, other saints, the pope - is counterproductive. Apparently I’m not a “real” Catholic if I cannot come up with the correct emotions. I went through that in the Pentecostal church - never again will I be manipulated that way.

I was simply pointing out that we are required to love God. We are also required to love Mary and the saints.

I don’t think we disagree on this issue.