Struggling with Marian Prayers

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Why do you feel guilty since you say you have no problems with the teachings on Mary? Perhaps there is something else…? Did you have a bad experience once? Our Blessed Mother is very powerful because of her humility with her son and for us…she loves us so immensely. I feel there may be more to why you are feeling “awkward”. I do think it is a very good thing that you are open about growing and understand more about your faith:) The Catholic faith is so beautiful - so deep and wide, one could never understand all!
I would suggest going to Adoration and specifically ask our Lord about this…I have known many people that get answers during their hour spent before the Blessed Sacrament! Tonight I will pray for you.
In His Love,
mlz
The guild came from the wording of the prayers. They were just hard for me to say without my stomach churning. However, as of the last few days the issues have resolved.
Thanks for the prayers. 😃
 
Scott Hahn and the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology is providing a free Bible study called The Bible and the Virgin Mary.

bibleandthevirginmary.com/streaming/

It may help you overcome your obstacle. Of course you are not required to ask Mary and the saints for intercession but really you are missing out on some beautiful spiritual benefits.
Thank you so much! I will be checking this out!
 
The idea of Mary being the Mediatrix of all Grace isn’t new, and it was held by some of Catholicism’s greatest saints. It’s amazing how they encountered the same resistance we do today when we defend Mary under this title.

Anyone who struggles with this should first read The Secret of Mary, a short book by St. Louis de Montfort on Mary and the Rosary. Then pick up True Devotion to Mary, and then “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus Marie Liguori. These great saints taught Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace. Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace is the 6th mystery in the Brigitine Rosary, and it was Pope Benedict XV who officially layed on her the title “Mediatrix of All Grace,” and not just “Mediatrix.”

It doesn’t mean Mary is our saviour, or that we are obfuscating the role of Jesus as our Saviour. It means that in the hierarchy of grace Mary is at the top and all grace flows from the top through her to us. In other words, as St. Pope Pius X taught, Mary is the Neck connecting Christ the Head to the Church. Mary isn’t the source of grace, she is the tap through which grace flows.

This shouldn’t be too hard to understand. After all, we receive the flesh of Jesus each time we receive Eucharist. And where else did that flesh come from except the womb of the Mother of God.
 
The idea of Mary being the Mediatrix of all Grace isn’t new, and it was held by some of Catholicism’s greatest saints. It’s amazing how they encountered the same resistance we do today when we defend Mary under this title.

Anyone who struggles with this should first read The Secret of Mary, a short book by St. Louis de Montfort on Mary and the Rosary. Then pick up True Devotion to Mary, and then “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus Marie Liguori. These great saints taught Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace. Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace is the 6th mystery in the Brigitine Rosary, and it was Pope Benedict XV who officially layed on her the title “Mediatrix of All Grace,” and not just “Mediatrix.”

It doesn’t mean Mary is our saviour, or that we are obfuscating the role of Jesus as our Saviour. It means that in the hierarchy of grace Mary is at the top and all grace flows from the top through her to us. In other words, as St. Pope Pius X taught, Mary is the Neck connecting Christ the Head to the Church. Mary isn’t the source of grace, she is the tap through which grace flows.

This shouldn’t be too hard to understand. After all, we receive the flesh of Jesus each time we receive Eucharist. And where else did that flesh come from except the womb of the Mother of God.
Thanks Athanasius. However you neglect to mention that Popes, Saints and an Ecumenical Council have clarified the reaching on this topic. You can refer to my post earlier in the thread for those details.

Bottomline is unfortunately we can’t refer to scripture for this title and role. It is ambiguous, too. We must realize that those Saints you mention loved Mary, but used exaggerated, extravagant and excessive love poetry to describe her… This can’t be the foundation for doctrine.
 
Thanks Athanasius. However you neglect to mention that Popes, Saints and an Ecumenical Council have clarified the reaching on this topic. You can refer to my post earlier in the thread for those details.

Bottomline is unfortunately we can’t refer to scripture for this title and role. It is ambiguous, too. We must realize that those Saints you mention loved Mary, but used exaggerated, extravagant and excessive love poetry to describe her… This can’t be the foundation for doctrine.
This blog post by Taylor Marshall answers your claim that we can’t refer to scripture, we can and do. Neither have there been any authoritative pronouncements by Pope’s or Counsels saying that Mary is not the Mediatrix of All Grace or that we can’t use this title because it is “confusing.”

Is Mary the Mediatrix of ALL GRACES?

Mary has many terms that are not explicitly in Scripture, for example Mary as the “Mirror of Justice.” Just because you don’t understand what the title means doesn’t make it ambiguous.

The Saints I mentioned were not ignorant. Don’t think for a second they didn’t hear people voice the same objections you do here. They were defending the honor of their Mother Mary, they weren’t exaggerating or being extravagant. Their works are down to earth and straight forward for anyone who takes the time to read them.
 
This blog post by Taylor Marshall answers your claim that we can’t refer to scripture, we can and do. Neither have there been any authoritative pronouncements by Pope’s or Counsels saying that Mary is not the Mediatrix of All Grace or that we can’t use this title because it is “confusing.”

Is Mary the Mediatrix of ALL GRACES?

Mary has many terms that are not explicitly in Scripture, for example Mary as the “Mirror of Justice.” Just because you don’t understand what the title means doesn’t make it ambiguous.

The Saints I mentioned were not ignorant. Don’t think for a second they didn’t hear people voice the same objections you do here. They were defending the honor of their Mother Mary, they weren’t exaggerating or being extravagant. Their works are down to earth and straight forward for anyone who takes the time to read them.
Thanks Athanasius… I understand your passion on the subject. I do, however, recommend you read the earlier post.

Relative to the ambiguity of the titles you mention, yes when people do not understand them and they haven’t been defined, they are ambiguous. Those aren’t my words, but the words of the commission JPII convened to study the topic.

You’re correct, the Church has not authoritatively taught that Mary isn’t the mediatrix of all graces… conversely, the Church has not authoritatively taught that she is. As stated by Don Ruggero several times in this thread… the Church allows great latitude in personal devotion. I always recommend that we don’t put our personal devotions forward as if others have to believe them… because, frankly, they don’t.
 
Thanks Athanasius… I understand your passion on the subject. I do, however, recommend you read the earlier post.

Relative to the ambiguity of the titles you mention, yes when people do not understand them and they haven’t been defined, they are ambiguous. Those aren’t my words, but the words of the commission JPII convened to study the topic.

You’re correct, the Church has not authoritatively taught that Mary isn’t the mediatrix of all graces… conversely, the Church has not authoritatively taught that she is. As stated by Don Ruggero several times in this thread… the Church allows great latitude in personal devotion. I always recommend that we don’t put our personal devotions forward as if others have to believe them… because, frankly, they don’t.
Here is another commentary supporting Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces, this time referring to Vatican II’s Lumen gentium ## 61-62:

Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces

Regarding your comment, just because you don’t understand something or consider it ambiguous is not a reason not to teach it. Many people pray litanies not understanding many of the titles, that doesn’t mean their prayers are useless or they aren’t fostering devotion. And practically speaking they probably would never hear those titles otherwise. It’s not as though a person can’t ask a priest or do some spiritual reading if they have a question about a certain title. And when it comes to Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace, the list is almost endless.

But for you to say that there is nothing authoritative that speaks to Marian Devotion or specifically to Mary under the Title as Mediatrix of All Grace is simply wrong. When Pope Benedict XV gave her that title and set a feast day specifically under that title, that was a magisterial act of a Pope.

Then what are we to make of the authority of Saints, Doctors of the Church? It seems to me when you claim “the Church doesn’t Teach this” you are picking and choosing only recent documents that support your personal opinion. But we do have great saints and the teaching of a doctor of the Church that supports the claim of Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace. Not only that but the teaching of many Pope’s supporting this title, Pope St. Pius X as already mentioned, and many others.

Not only that but Mary as Mediatrix of ALL grace is mutually exclusive with any statement to the contrary, for it cannot be logically possible for an All statement to be true at the same time as statements that do not attribute to her “all grace.” It’s either true or it’s not. Perhaps at some point in the future it will be declared a Dogma, but at this point it remains Doctrine of Saints, Pope’s and Doctors.
 
Further to my comments here, whenever this topic comes up I am constantly reminded of the story of the Pious lady in Rome as told in The Secret of the Rosary.
WHATEVER YOU DO, do not be like a certain pious but self-willed lady in Rome, so often referred to when speaking about the Rosary. She was so devout and so fervent that she put to shame by her holy life, even the strictest religious in the Church.

Having decided to ask Saint Dominic’s advice about her spiritual life she asked him to hear her confession. For penance he gave her one whole Rosary to say and advised her to say it every day. She said that she had no time to say it, excusing herself on the grounds that she made the Stations [1] of Rome every day, that she wore sack-cloth and also a hair shirt, that she gave herself the discipline several times a week, that she carried out so many other penances and fasted so much. Saint Dominic urged her over and over again to take his advice and say the Rosary, but she would not hear of it. She left the confessional, horrified at the tactics of this new spiritual director who had tried so hard to persuade her to take on a devotion that was not at all to her liking.
Continue reading here…

These books may get a certain label as just “pious spirituality” but if you read and meditate on them you realize they refute their critics on their own. This story essentially sums up this thread. It’s full of pious likely well meaning people, who may even have a strong devotion to Our Lady, but you still downplay devotion to her claiming it’s only optional and crying foul about perceived exaggerations. No other topic would teach 14+ pages so quickly, that’s a sign that it’s clearly important.
 
These books may get a certain label as just “pious spirituality” but if you read and meditate on them you realize they refute their critics on their own.
Why is it so important to you to convert us to your view? It’s beginning to sound like insecurity or an unhealthy obsession.
 
Why is it so important to you to convert us to your view? It’s beginning to sound like insecurity or an unhealthy obsession.
Exactly!

I don’t understand it either. Happy that you have your devotion Athanasius. However, it is your tone that is offensive.

As Don Ruggerio has said, as well as many others, the Church makes no demands of us on our devotion to Mary, I would ask that you don’t either.

And yes, you state that you think someone “should” do what you do, even though it is not “required” you are making demands.

People ought to “pray as they can”, if that includes specific devotions to the Blessed Mother, so be it.

If not, so be it. Why is that so hard for people like you to grasp?! :mad:🤷
 
But for you to say that there is nothing authoritative that speaks to Marian Devotion or specifically to Mary under the Title as Mediatrix of All Grace is simply wrong. When Pope Benedict XV gave her that title and set a feast day specifically under that title, that was a magisterial act of a Pope.
God Bless you Athanasius… I respect your devotion. If Pope Benedict XV is authoritative… then surely you will agree that what I post below is authoritative.

A few thoughts on the topic of Mary Mediatrix of All Graces…

I think it’s important to start by reminding everyone of the weight of the various Church teaching documents… in descending order of formal authority: apostolic/dogmatic constitution, encyclical letter, encyclical epistle, apostolic exhortation, apostolic letter, letter and message. Lumen Gentium is an Apostolic Constitution which carries the greatest weight and would hold a higher place than the Apostolic Letters and Encyclicals frequently referenced as mentioning the idea of Mediatrix of All Graces. Now it does not take and ex cathedra statement or a council to declare a magisterial teaching, but a council can clarify what may have been said previously and further develop doctrine - as in this case.

Lumen Gentium very purposefully stopped short of declaring Mary the Mediatrix of All Graces when it said “Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. These, however, are to be so understood that they neither take away from nor add to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.” The footnotes that are mentioned earlier in this thread point to papal statements and radio addresses which express a personal devotion of various Popes. The context in which they are referenced is clear in the document itself.

This is clear when you understand how the clarified teaching was formed at the VII. During the daily interventions, Archbishop Corrado Mingo of Monorail, Italy argued at the Council that the title “Mediatrix” should be amplified to “Mediatrix of All Graces”, yet it was omitted from LG. Several other Council fathers made that argument as well, still it was not included. It’s a well documented fact that it was considered a compromise between disparate groups at the Council to include the title ‘Mediatrix’, but ‘of All Graces’ was excluded. The fact that the topic was openly argued on the council floor is pretty compelling evidence that the doctrine is not fully formed, let alone universally agreed on by Church Fathers… far from it.

Also at the Council, Bishop Ancel, of Lyons, France said that title “Mediatrix” was given in LG, but at the same time it was given no endorsement, thus leaving the door open for further study as the topic is still heavily debated among theologians. "Perhaps the title ‘Mediatrix might be listed with the other titles, in order to avoid the impression that it is a privileged one’ he said.

To further reinforce the point that the doctrine was not fully formed in the Constitution…during the Council, Cardinal Alfrink of the Netherlands said “the title ‘Mediatrix’ should not be insisted upon, since it generates such great difficulties.” There was a clear divisions between the Council Fathers on whether or not to even include the title 'Mediatrix", let alone define it… And there is no mention of ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’

The last formal action on this subject was in 1996, when, at the request of the Holy See, a commission was formed to determine whether or not a 5th Marian Dogma should be defined addressing the titles Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. The commission unanimously decided not to define a fifth Marian dogma on those titles. You can read more about it here: campus.udayton.edu/mary/resou…ianacademy.htm

Last I look to the moderating influence of Pope St John Paul II in his letter dated 12/9/2003 to none other than the Montfort Religious Family:
*
This Saint’s teaching has had a profound influence on the Marian devotion of many of the faithful and on my own life. It is a lived teaching of outstanding ascetic and mystical depth, expressed in a lively and passionate style that makes frequent use of images and symbols. However, the considerable development of Marian theology since St. Louis Marie’s time is largely due to the crucial contribution made by the Second Vatican Council. The Montfort teaching, therefore, which has retained its essential validity should be reread and reinterpreted today in the light of the Council.
So….A Dogmatic Constitution holds the Church’s highest teaching authority. Lumen Gentium did not declare Mary ‘Mediatrix of All Graces.’ and purposefully omitted it from the Constitution. The Church has yet to define a teaching on Mary a ‘Mediatrix’ and the last formal action on the subject ended with a decision not to pursue a definition.

Why wouldn’t it be included in the Catechism that was issued in the 1980’s?? There is no reference to it. The Catechism was developed under PJPII, as much a marian Pope as we have had, no?

Why are there no magisterial documents that define what the title means?

Ultimately, this piece of Marian devotion falls in to the category of personal devotion. The Church may one day declare Mary to be "Mediatrix of All Graces’, but it does not teach that today.

Pax in Agno,
Dan
 
Thanks a lot for the advice and book suggestions. Since I posted this question my feelings have begun to change about the subject. I continued to pray for understanding and my feelings of discomfort or guilt have subsided. I forgot to edit the post and say it was the Mother of Perpetual Help devotion. The wording is what throws me off. It just sounds so “worship-ish” if that makes sense? Thanks again!
Thank you for responding, and I’m happy to hear about these changes. If you’d like to share, what wording is it? (If the words are on paper that you don’t have and can’t quote from memory, though, I’m not demanding that you make any special effort to find it.)

Here I also have a more general comment about an earlier post. My comment may not apply to you so much anymore, but it may help anyone else who has a reaction similar to your initial reaction.
Marian devotion in the Church – East and West – takes many forms and expressions. Perhaps the prayers you encountered are of a style not suited to you. Obviously, I do not know the particular devotions your parish employs…but I have more than a passing acquaintance with the devotions used publicly in honor of Our Mother of Perpetual Help and there are certain ones, popularly in use, where the prayers’ compositions could easily not accord with the sensibilities of various people. Perhaps I presume too much to think that might be the issue you confront.
I am almost certain that I haven’t had as much experience as he has had with different “Our Mother of Perpetual Help” devotions, but I’ve seen different texts as well.

If someone does not favor a particular wording in a novena or other devotions to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, one resolution to these difficulties may involve simply using different prayers. (If those different prayers aren’t used as part of the devotions in a convenient parish setting, perhaps someone may still pray those different prayers privately.) A more drastic step, such as abandoning any devotion to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, may be unnecessary.

The same advice applies to any other legitimate subject of devotion.

(This example may be a bit silly, but it’s actual: I found some Christocentric prayers that include either “!?” or “?!” in multiple places. I am easily tempted, though :o, to ridicule people who use “!?” and “?!” I simply made a private copy of these prayers that uses only one mark, and I can pray these prayers with few distractions.)
 
Here are the findings of the 1996 commission on the subject…

campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/internationalmarianacademy.htm

Declaration of the Theological Commission of the Pontifical International Marian Academy

Request for the definition of the dogma of Mary as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate

The twelfth International Mariological Congress, held at Częstochowa (Poland) in August 1996, was asked by the Holy See to study the possibility and the opportuneness of a definition of the Marian titles of Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate, as is being requested of the Holy See by certain circles. A commission was established, composed of fifteen theologians chosen for their specific preparation in this area, so that together they could discuss and analyze the question through mature reflection. In addition to their theological competence, care was also taken to ensure the greatest possible geographical diversity among the members, so that any possible consensus would become especially significant. It was also sought to enrich the study group by adding, as external members, some non-Catholic theologians who were present at the Congress. The commission arrived at a twofold conclusion.
  1. The titles, as proposed, are ambiguous, as they can be understood in very different ways. Furthermore, the theological direction taken by the Second Vatican Council, which did not wish to define any of these titles, should not be abandoned. The Second Vatican Council did not use the title “Coredemptrix”, and uses “Mediatrix” and “Advocate” in a very moderate way (cf. Lumen Gentium, 62). In fact, from the time of Pope Pius XII, the term “Coredemptrix” has not been used by the papal Magisterium in its significant documents. There is evidence that Pope Pius XII himself intentionally avoided using it. With respect to the title “Mediatrix,” the history of the question should not be forgotten: in the first decades of this century the Holy See entrusted the study of the possibility of its definition to three different commissions, the result of which was that the Holy See decided to set the question aside.
  2. Even if the titles were assigned a content which could be accepted as belonging to the deposit of the faith, the definition of these titles, however, in the present situation would be lacking in theological clarity, as such titles and the doctrines inherent in them still require further study in a renewed Trinitarian, ecclesiological and anthropological perspective. Finally, the theologians, especially the non-Catholics, were sensitive to the ecumenical difficulties which would be involved in such a definition.
The commission included Father Pavao Melada, O.F.M. and Father Stefano Cecchin, O.F.M., the President and Secretary respectively of the Pontifical International Marian Academy, Father Cándido Pozo, S.J. (Spain), Father Ignacio M. Calabuig, O.S.M. (Marianum - Rome), Father Jesús Castellano Cervera, O.C.D (Teresianum - Rome), Father Franz Courth, S.A.C. (Germany), Father Stefano De Fiores, S.M.M. (Italy), Father Miguel Angel Delgado, O.S.M. (Mexico), Father Manuel Felicio da Rocha (Portugal), Father Georges Gharib (Melkite - Syria), Father Réné Laurentin (France), Father Jan Pach, O.S.P.P.E. (Poland), Father Adalbert Rebic (Croatia), Father Jean Rivain (France), Father Johann Roten, S.M. (USA), Father Ermanno Toniolo, O.S.M. (Italy), Mons. Teofil Siudy (Poland), Father Anton Ziegenaus (Germany), Canon Roger Greenacre (Anglican - England), Dr. Hans Christoph Schmidt - Lauber (Lutheran - Austria), Father Ghennadios Limouris (Orthodox - Constantinople), Father Jean Kawak (Orthodox - Syria), Prof. Constantin Charalampidis (Orthodox - Greece).
 
Here are the findings of the 1996 commission on the subject…

It was also sought to enrich the study group by adding, as external members, some non-Catholic theologians who were present at the Congress.

Finally, the theologians, especially the non-Catholics, were sensitive to the ecumenical difficulties which would be involved in such a definition.
Hmmm.
 
This Saint’s teaching has had a profound influence on the Marian devotion of many of the faithful and on my own life. It is a lived teaching of outstanding ascetic and mystical depth, expressed in a lively and passionate style that makes frequent use of images and symbols. However, the considerable development of Marian theology since St. Louis Marie’s time is largely due to the crucial contribution made by the Second Vatican Council. The Montfort teaching, therefore, which has retained its essential validity should be reread and reinterpreted today in the light of the Council.
Thank you for this quote from Pope Saint John Paul II. It is an important reminder that even the writings of the saints must always be read through the eyes of the Church – and according to the mind of the Church.

Pope Saint John Paul II was profoundly affected by the life and writings of Saint Louis de Montfort. He had made the de Montfort consecration. His motto, Totus Tuus, was directly from de Montfort’s spirituality. As pope, he made a pilgrimage to de Montfort’s tomb. Many have been enriched by reading the writing of the Saint. But it is there for people to choose or not choose…just as they may choose to be inspired by the Marian teachings of Saint Maximilian Kolbe. Or to find help in their spiritual life through Saint Benedict, Saint Dominic, Saint Francis of Assisi or Saint Francis de Sales, Saint Rose of Lima, Saint Kateri Tekakwitha, Blessed Anna Maria Taigi and the Trinitarian charism or Saint Elizabeth of the Trinity and her spirituality on the divine indwelling of the Three Divine Persons or Saint Therese of Lisieux and the little way of spiritual childhood or Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection and his Practice of the Presence of God, which is a spiritual classic.

One remembers the wonderful Brother of the Congregation of Holy Cross, Saint Andre Bessette, whose great devotion in life was Saint Joseph. Countless thousands were helped by the humble Brother during his life with prayers, medals, holy oil and holy cards of Saint Joseph. The Oratory of Saint Joseph in Montreal is one of the most splendid pilgrimage destinations in the world and, at its heart, is the tomb of this incredible canonized Holy Cross Brother who built this great edifice on a mountainside opposite the college where he lived and worked as a doorkeeper.
 
Lumen Gentium may not have defined Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace, but it falling short of stating “All Grace” does not mean it defined her not to be Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace. It is far from supporting your allegation that the title Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace has fallen into disfavor. I would not say that I consider Pope Benedict XV, I would say that what he did actually was authoritative. It was an action of a Pope using his authority as Pope, not just the findings of a commission making non authoritative statements.

I already linked this article on Lumen Gentium for you to read. I will now restate what was said since you may not have read it and considered it.

After quoting the relevant portion of Lumen Gentium he gives the following analysis:
We notice that Vatican II did not add the words “of all graces.” However, as many papal texts point out, Mary’s role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.
Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.” St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.” These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.
The reality is that we have a Pope confirming in an authoritative way this title on Our Lady and establishing a Feast day for her specifically under this title. The document you linked by the Theological Commission of the Pontifical International Marian Academy is not in any way authoritative or magisterial. It’s not binding in any way on the faithful nor does it constitute Church teaching.

And your claims that Louis de Montfort and St. Alphonsus Liguori were “exaggerating” or “excessive” are fallacious and weak, you aren’t addressing any of the real reasons for considering Mary as the Mediatrix of All Grace. I think it’s pretty clear that Pope’s and Theologins from periods prior to Vatican II would absolutely have disagreed with your opinions here.

While I’m at it, I might as well add a few more voices on this subject:

Mary, the Mediatrix of All Graces - Fr Isaac Relyea

Sermon: The Mediatrix of All Graces

Sermon: Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces

Our Queen, the Mediatrix of All Graces

Further, it strikes me that if you say the Rosary every day and regularly meditate on the Glorious Mysteries, the Patronage of Mary logically follows from her being Assumed into Heaven and being Crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth. But I’m also aware that devotion to the Rosary is somewhat waning today, primarily due to some of the attitudes expressed in this thread.
 
Lumen Gentium may not have defined Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace, but it falling short of stating “All Grace” does not mean it defined her not to be Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace. It is far from supporting your allegation that the title Mary as Mediatrix of All Grace has fallen into disfavor. I would not say that I consider Pope Benedict XV, I would say that what he did actually was authoritative. It was an action of a Pope using his authority as Pope, not just the findings of a commission making non authoritative statements.

I already linked this article on Lumen Gentium for you to read. I will now restate what was said since you may not have read it and considered it.

After quoting the relevant portion of Lumen Gentium he gives the following analysis:

The reality is that we have a Pope confirming in an authoritative way this title on Our Lady and establishing a Feast day for her specifically under this title. The document you linked by the Theological Commission of the Pontifical International Marian Academy is not in any way authoritative or magisterial. It’s not binding in any way on the faithful nor does it constitute Church teaching.

And your claims that Louis de Montfort and St. Alphonsus Liguori were “exaggerating” or “excessive” are fallacious and weak, you aren’t addressing any of the real reasons for considering Mary as the Mediatrix of All Grace. I think it’s pretty clear that Pope’s and Theologins from periods prior to Vatican II would absolutely have disagreed with your opinions here.

While I’m at it, I might as well add a few more voices on this subject:

Mary, the Mediatrix of All Graces - Fr Isaac Relyea

Sermon: The Mediatrix of All Graces

Sermon: Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces

Our Queen, the Mediatrix of All Graces

Further, it strikes me that if you say the Rosary every day and regularly meditate on the Glorious Mysteries, the Patronage of Mary logically follows from her being Assumed into Heaven and being Crowned Queen of Heaven and Earth. But I’m also aware that devotion to the Rosary is somewhat waning today, primarily due to some of the attitudes expressed in this thread.
We’ve been over this… JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DON’T SHARE YOUR DEVOTION DOESN’T MEAN THEY SHUN MARY!

Our Holy Church says Mary intercedes for us, but it acknowledges Jesus as the Mediator. Mary is NOT Mediatrix of all Graces! :mad:
 
Exactly!

I don’t understand it either. Happy that you have your devotion Athanasius. However, it is your tone that is offensive.

As Don Ruggerio has said, as well as many others, the Church makes no demands of us on our devotion to Mary, I would ask that you don’t either.

And yes, you state that you think someone “should” do what you do, even though it is not “required” you are making demands.

People ought to “pray as they can”, if that includes specific devotions to the Blessed Mother, so be it.

If not, so be it. Why is that so hard for people like you to grasp?! :mad:🤷
Posts got tone?:confused:

One should not go to the extreme of separating the Blessed Virgin Mary from Jesus or Jesus from the Blessed Virgin Mary. Both extremes would be wrong. There are plenty of points in between the two that the Church accepts. One point being no more right or wrong than another.

MARIALIS CULTUS
The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church’s genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God’s redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord.
 
Posts got tone?:confused:

One should not go to the extreme of separating the Blessed Virgin Mary from Jesus or Jesus from the Blessed Virgin Mary. Both extremes would be wrong. There are plenty of points in between the two that the Church accepts. One point being no more right or wrong than another.

MARIALIS CULTUS
NOBODY IS SEPARATING MARY FROM ANYTHING!!! :mad::mad::mad:

All some of are trying to say is that our devotion to the Blessed Virgin is just that, OURS!!!

We do not expect any of you to do what we do, why do Mary devotees want us to do what THEY DO?!

The constant bashing because we question some titles attributed to her, and the zealousness of some of those devoted to her, almost to the point of obsession, make it very difficult to have a rational conversation about any of this.

I beg you all- PLEASE STOP!!!

I am no less Catholic than you simply because my “devotion” to Mary is different than yours!! And if you cannot see that in this thread Patrick, it is because you are “choosing” not to. :rolleyes:
 
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