struggling with mary

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Lion Heart,

John 14:6 is correct and it is important to remember that there are many ways we can come to Jesus.

God bless,

That’s right, Jesus never, ever said that there was only one way to Him.

No matter how much we try to squeeze God into a “box” and no matter how nice we may think the “box” that we try to squeeze God into is, God just will not be squeezed in.

One could say that God has all of the bases covered so that we will all make it home.

As it is written, “It is God’s Will that ALL be saved” and Jesus asked us and taught us to pray “Thy Will be done…”, might be a good idea to trust in God and hope beyond what many seem to think is hope-able and much sadder to say, what many don’t even seem to want to hope for.

Jesus said, “I Am the Vine, you are the branches”, He did NOT say, ‘I Am the Vine, you are the branch’.

 

[Simca]

po8guy

A person who accepts Jesus Christ’s shed blood on calvary as being all that’s needed for the forgiveness of sin --God sees us Through the shed blood – just as if we’d never sinned "Justified’.

Both the protestant and Catholic faith agree: Jesus is the way of salvation. But we have a few differences.

Infused righteousness refers to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Justification, i.e. right standing before God. Within the Roman Catholic view, Justification is seen as a “process” as contrasted to the Protestant view of a moment-in-time forensic declaration by God that the sinner is righteous. If the believer dies without having the fullness of righteousness, he or she will temporarily spend time in purgatory until the sinful status is purged from his or her record.
(quoted from theopedia.com/Infused_righteousness)

(For a more thorough discussion on the catholic viewpoint, see vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/infused-righteousness-versus-imputed-righteousness-which-one-entitles-us-to-enter-heaven/)

Catholics believe that not only do we have to come to Christ, we need to live a life that is worthy of him. This is in contrast to the view that God sees us as he sees Jesus-completely spotless, because Jesus is spotless. For the Roman Catholic, the believer is made righteous by cooperating with God’s grace. For the Protestant, the believer is declared righteous when he comes to faith, based on the righteousness of Christ credited (imputed) to him.

Justification is that step in salvation in which God declares the believer righteous. Protestant theology has emphasized that this includes the imputation of Christ’s righteousness (crediting it to the believer’s “account”), whereas Roman Catholic theology emphasizes that God justifies in accord with an infused righteousness merited by Christ and maintained by the believer’s good works.

Catholics do not believe that once we come to Christ he imputes his righteousness to us, and that no matter what we do in our life, when we stand before God, that God will automatically see us as righteous because Jesus is.

We believe we also have to live a life that is worthy of him.

This is seen so often in the Bible. It is especially evident in the Letters to the Churches in Revelation. Jesus was speaking to the members of his church and he said:

Remain faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life (Rev 2:10 );

You must hold fast to what you have until I come (Rev 2:25);

To the victor I will give some of the hidden manna (Rev 2:17);

To the victor who keeps my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations (Rev 2:26);

I have not found YOUR WORKS complete in the sight of my God, REMEMBER THEN HOW YOU ACCEPTED AND HEARD, keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, BECAUSE THEY ARE WORTHY. The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. (Rev 3:2-5). (caps are mine.)

Hold fast to what you have so that no one may take your crown. The victor I will make into a pillar in the temple of my God (Rev 3:11-12);

Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest therefore, and repent. (Rev 3:19)

I think, not only do these verses speak about the ‘once saved always saved’ belief, they also tell us that, not only must we believe, we must be worthy.

Jesus said that he who puts his back to the plow, but then looks back, is not worthy of him. He did not say that all we have to do is put our back to the plow and he would do the rest. We have to cooperate with salvation. ‘Work out your salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)

In Leviticus, when the Israelites heard the covenant, they swore they would abide by everything it said, but they went on to disobey God. In fact in Hebrew chapter 3 it says that with most of them, God was not pleased and he swore they would never enter his rest. ‘We have become partners with Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until the end (Hebrews 3:14)

When we come to God, we basically agree to keep his word. But what happens after that is both a work of the Holy Spirit and our own free will. If we live a life of unrighteousness and haven’t repented, will God then say, well it’s OK, because at one point you came to Christ and agreed to follow him, you are covered in his blood, so it doesn’t matter? This is not what the church teaches.

The scripture says that if we confess our sins He forgives us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. (I John 1:19). But there are many sins we have committed that we are unaware of. So how are we cleansed of these? If we die in a state of belief, we can be cleansed in Purgatory.

Peace,

Simca

 

[po18guy]

Mary’s messages are always the same: She always tells us to turn to her Son and to live a life of prayer. (I realize all these messages are not church-approved.)

Catholics put Jesus first in all things. Sometimes to others, it may not seem like it, but if Jesus isn’t put first, then we’re on the wrong track.

So many, both inside, but especially outside of the Church do not realize that Mary is not an end unto herself. She would be shocked if that occurred. She is the means to an end - Jesus Christ. Her purpose was to bring Christ to the world, and ever after to lead the world to Christ. If not, then why the (approved) apparitions?

Sure, we can follow the man-made doctrine of “Me and Jesus”, but it is a lonelier road to travel, and tends to destroy the concept of the Body being a unity - which goes directly against the very bible that they profess to follow…

 

[po18guy]

That’s right, Jesus never, ever said that there was only one way to Him.

Precisely. First, there was one. Then there were twelve. Then seventy two. Then over 500, and then over 3,000. I recall the parables of the mustard seed and the leaven in the bread here. But, which of all of them knows him the most intimately, having made herself a disciple and servant even before the incarnation? The mother of her own Lord! But, the Kindergarten theology we are confronted with today discards all of this richness, then makes judgment against those who see more than they do. All that I can do is pray that the Holy Spirit sharpens their senses, unstops their ears and opens their hearts.

 

[Lion_Heart]

For the Roman Catholic, the believer is made righteous by cooperating with God’s grace.

Greetings in Christ Simca,

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of FAITH is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees FAITH as FUNDAMENTAL in justification. FOR WITHOUT FAITH, NO JUSTIFICATION CAN TAKE PLACE. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the RENEWAL OF LIFE by justifying grace, this RENEWAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and CONTRIBUTES NOTHING TO JUSTIFICATION

As God’s elects to Heaven, in the Body of Christ we have God’s gift of EVERLASTING LIFE which can NEVER BE REVOKED.

We are perfect and complete in the Body of Christ.

100% RE-CREATED (Born Again/New Creation).
100% JUSTIFIED.
100% SANCTIFIED.

OUR EVERLASTING LIFE IS THE GIFT OF GOD BY CHRIST’S MERIT.

It CAN NOT be improved by addition and as God’s elects to Heaven to lose it is a THEOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

Here on the earth as Christ’s ambassadors, we are not exactly HOLY and JUST in ourselves. We work on to improve them by our cooperation with the grace of God. “Ongoing event.”

To understand: This continues increase in HOLINESS and JUSTICE in ourselves CAN NOT be contributed to our HOLYNESS and JUSTICE, in the Body of Christ, because in the Body of Christ we are 100% HOLY and 100% JUST. This is both GOD’S GIFT and 100% Perfect.

Our salvation PRECEDES our cooperation with the grace of God.
So, to work on to be more JUST and HOLY Phil.2:12-15; Eph.4:22-24; 1 Thess.4:1, 3; Hebr.2:11, is the FRUIT of our salvation NOT the cause of our salvation.

The fruits of our salvation CAN NOT be contributed to our salvation.
We are NOT saved by God’s gift of salvation by Christ merit + our supernatural merit/good works.
The two do NOT MIX!!!

Our cooperation with the grace of God is our supernatural merit.
God rewards it IN heaven.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by James Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. (It is on the internet, every Catholic and Protestant should read and study it.)

Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH:

a. BELIEF ……. (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)
b. HOPE ……… (Unconditional TRUST in God.)
c. CHARITY …. (Unconditional LOVE for God.)

Formed faith also includes Baptism of Desire.

ACCORDING TO CATHOLIC DOCTRINE:-
We have been saved by grace ALONE, SOLELY on account of the work of Christ.
Another term, which means the same thing (Catholics permitted to believe): We have been saved by (formed) faith alone.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Geo17]

This thread sure went off topic several times and then came back several times. I was born and raised Catholic back in the 1950’s and 60’s, and other people my age may recall we weren’t taught much back then. At least we weren’t taught what or why we did things in the church. We just did them. So at 18 I gave up on religion but I always spoke to God. At 27 I started reading the Bible, and finished the 1st reading at 30. I joined a protestant Born Again church, and was disappointed in it. I’m now trying to decide if I fit in better with Catholics or Protestants. This is tougher than being on my own was.

About salvation I’m much more in agreement with Catholics. We get saved through grace and faith in Jesus. But then we have to spend the rest of our lives proving to God that we love Him. Jesus made it abundantly clear that we do that by obeying God. And yes, protestants don’t believe this, so that’s a big problem to me.

But getting back to the original topic here which is Mary. I have nothing against the Mother of our Lord and Savior. To suggest I do would be a grave error. I even think most of her appearances on Earth are real. What I wonder about is why doesn’t the RCC consider all her appearances as real? But that’s not the big problem.

It seems to me that at a long past time, the people called Christians focused all their time and energy on Jesus and God the Father. But somewhere the church got side tracked. So now most Catholics are always talking about the Blessed Virgin and what she did for them. Most of their prayers are meant for Mary. And maybe worse of all, most statures in the churches are of Mary,or Mary holding baby Jesus. I don’t even think we should have so many statures, but since we do, they shouldn’t be mostly Mary. Recently I tried to pray the Rosary and I started to cry because I felt that I was betraying God.

I don’t agree with protestants on the idea that once we accept Jesus all future sins are automatically forgiven. But I also can’t say the Hail Mary, without changing a few words. I can’t see her as the Mother of God. Nor can I see her as queen of Heaven. So I’m in a bind.

I posted this just to answer angell1 because I still have these problems also. :bible1:

 

[Dorothy]

“Geo17”,

I would like to respond to two things you mention in your post.

1. “Why doesn’t the RCC consider all her appearances as real?” (Blessed Mother).

The Church needs to be very careful when people claim things such as apparitions with messages. It is the responsibility of the Magisterium to see that the flock is not led astray by false prophets. Fatima took 14 years of investigation and prayer before it was officially said that it was okay to believe. I was a teen in the 1950’s when I was first introduced to Fatima and our Mother’s requests for prayer and penance. It got me into deeper prayer and helped me very much.

There have been instances of people claiming visions and messages that were spurious to say the least.
The flock must be guarded against this.

1. About Blessed Mother being called “Mother of God”.
   
   She is called the Mother of God not because she preceded God. She is a humble creature of God, with special prerogatives which she freely received, and then had to be a Woman of Faith. Her title, Mother of God, acknowledges that the Child in her womb is truly 100% man and 100% God! (The Incarnation of the Second Person of the Most Blessed Trinity - the Son of God.)

Mary is likened to a clear pane of glass that freely allows the Blessed Trinity to shine forth through her. (no smudges.) She is always understanding that all the grace she was blessed with comes from the Trinity! She did have to be a woman of profound faith, and obeyed the Lord with love constantly.

The Lord’s Peace to you!

Dorothy

 

[petra22]

In my opinion God allowed this division created by the influence of the devil for some greater good. It is my prayer that one day God will unite us all under his Church that still lives today after 2000+ years.

This is what I think, too, because God has us all in His hands. May it all be for the honor and glory of God. It’s not easy because of our sinful nature and mostly our pride. Pride it hard to overcome. Let us all overcome our prideful natures. Amen

 

[Simca]

But getting back to the original topic here which is Mary. I have nothing against the Mother of our Lord and Savior. To suggest I do would be a grave error. I even think most of her appearances on Earth are real. What I wonder about is why doesn’t the RCC consider all her appearances as real? But that’s not the big problem.

It seems to me that at a long past time, the people called Christians focused all their time and energy on Jesus and God the Father. But somewhere the church got side tracked. So now most Catholics are always talking about the Blessed Virgin and what she did for them. Most of their prayers are meant for Mary. And maybe worse of all, most statures in the churches are of Mary,or Mary holding baby Jesus. I don’t even think we should have so many statures, but since we do, they shouldn’t be mostly Mary. Recently I tried to pray the Rosary and I started to cry because I felt that I was betraying God.

I don’t agree with protestants on the idea that once we accept Jesus all future sins are automatically forgiven. But I also can’t say the Hail Mary, without changing a few words. I can’t see her as the Mother of God. Nor can I see her as queen of Heaven. So I’m in a bind.

I posted this just to answer angell1 because I still have these problems also. :bible1:

I really know what you mean about struggling with Mary. I come from an evangelical background, and find that when I get out my rosary beads, it’s usually the Divine Chaplet that I pray.

I will occasionally pray the Rosary with a group at church and I find that concentrating on the mysteries is really a blessing. I sometimes still wonder about praying, ‘Hail Mary, etc.’, but it’s just words from the Bible that the angel spoke to Mary, with a deep respect and love because she was God’s servant and the mother-to-be of our Lord.

I have occasionally prayed to Mary and have actually felt her presence. I think I have probably missed out on great blessings during my journey in Catholicism, and plan on spending more time talking to Mary in the future. It’s something I have come to very slowly. Maybe if you talked to her occasionally, too, it will get easier.

 

[harlen]

As a non-Catholic on this Forum – I’ve been learning a Lot about Catholicism. Obviously God chose Mary to be the earthly mother of Jesus. Why – we don’t know – it was God’s choice. The angel told her what was going to happen. The Holy Spirit would come upon her and she would bear the Christ Child. In Luke 1 – Mary’s song " My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has been mindful of the humble state of his servant, From now on all generations will call be blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me-- holy is His name, etc.

But in the rest of Scripture – she gives birth in a very humble place – a stable.

But no where in Scripture are we told to pray To or Through Mary. We ARE told that Jesus Christ – the Man Christ Jesus is our Mediator between God and man.

And people are Bound and Determined that Mary didn’t have any other children. That for Some reason, it just wouldn’t be Proper for her womb to hold any other person. And I know that there has already been Much discussion about this in other questions.

Jesus prayed directly to His Father when He was here before going to the cross.

Philippians 4:6 & 7 “but in everything by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God which transcends all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”

Just some thoughts

Perhaps it would help to place scripture in its true context.
As a protestant have you ever considered this…
Jesus did not write a book!
Neither did Jesus did not tell his Apostles “Go, and write…”
Jesus was a Carpenter, and yet He didn’t use His skills to invent the printing press!
Neither did He postpone His coming until the Press, or universal literacy (still not here!)
So, could Jesus have intended to found a “book based” religion? The only answer possible is “No”

Instead He founded a Church (“Thou art Peter…etc” & Pentecost)
He sent out His Apostles with Authority & Power to forgive sins, cast out demons, heal and be servants to the poor.
This Catholic Church (Kingdom-of-God) grew and evolved, without “The Bible”, referring to various scriptures for 300 years before binding up a selection of them into Our-Family-Reference-Library or “Bible” for short.
It contains all types of literature relevant to our history and the NT epistles are haphazard survivals dealing with local issues of the moment.
The Church gives us the Bible & not vice versa.
The world today suffers greatly from the fundamentalists’ need for black-&-white, dead-letter, cast-iron, literal God-talking-Books. The Bible is not that kind of a collection.

The Church slowly discerns and develops its understanding of truth and doctrines (like “The Trinity” which is also not in the Bible)
In this context Mary’s role as Mother & Intercessor doesn’t even begin until long after Christ’s gift from the cross “Behold thy Mother”
A mother never gives up on her children; maybe that’s why she is busy appearing all over the world. Her mission, as New Eve & as the Ark, are complete; but her Mission as Mother & Intercessor is in full swing. This only started after scripture was closed.

When/If you come to faith in Christ’s Church, more than in “His Book”, you will trust this development and unfolding of truth. It is a living, dynamic asset for His Church ensuring it is never fossilised in a Book.

 

[crochet_lady]

First I’m going to respond to “Simca” # 76 Agree

Then to 'gmanlq #77

 Jesus Christ Does want us united as believers -- and That is possible through the fact that believers all have the Holy Spirit indwelling us.  And He does Not want fighting / divisions amongst the brethren.  
 And Bible / God's Word Is to be our final authority.  Which is why there Are lots of denominations -- God does Not force anyone to believe any certain way.  But He Does tell us that  He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Him (the Father) but through Jesus Christ, His Son.  And we are also told to Not forsake the assembling of ourselves together to worship with those of like faith / belief because there had been those who Did.  
 Psalm 62 -- God our Foundation of salvation. -- and there Are various 'groups' existing that people / churches Can associate with.  But no one forces any church group to belong to any particular 'group'.  There are the GARBC, Southern Baptists, Northern Baptists, Independent Baptists, etc.  And there Are lots of differences of opinion over a lot of topics in God's Word.  The idea Being that Christ is the Head of the Body -- the pastor is the teacher of a particular group of believers. But we are All to look to God -- but -- as already commented -- He didn't create us to be puppets.
And, of course we are NOT to just go out and sin freely and not expect any negative consequences.  A 'believer' still has the sin nature -- when a person accepts God's gift of salvation -- and Christ suffered Greatly for our potential salvation. The people who give Christianity a Bad name are those who've 'gone forward'  for whatever reason, 'prayed a prayer' cause someone told them to, and Then  proceed to live just as sinful a life as they Had been.  They simply did what they did cause someone who Did care about them, Wanted them to -- or a friend has been inviting them to 'church' and to get them to 'let them alone' they Go through the Motions Of -- but when there is no change and the person doesn't 'feel' different -- they think -- why bother with 'Christianity' -- "IT" doesn't Do anything for Me or 'them'.

Some people ‘pay’ for their sinning on this earth – guilty conscience / jail/ prison / lose of family/ job, etc. And some people seem to ‘get away with their sinning’ but there is Still Rev. 20 for them to deal with. Vs 10 / 1st the devil , beast, and the false prophet are caste into the lake of fire and brimstone for ever and ever to be tormented.
then vs 11 – a great white throne and Him who sat on it, vs 12 And I saw the dead, small and great standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. vs 13 – judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. vs 13 – those in the sea – Death and Hades delivered up the dead - judges according to their works. vs 14 – both were cast into the lake of fire. The second death"
So - Where does purgatory fit into all this.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

crochet lady:

Jesus Christ Does want us united as believers – and That is possible through the fact that believers all have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. And He does Not want fighting / divisions amongst the brethren.
And Bible / God’s Word Is to be our final authority. Which is why there Are lots of denominations – God does Not force anyone to believe any certain way.

Then we can be satisfied that you have NO problem with ANY of the Catholic Doctrines.

Even if you or your pastor do have problems, it would be against God’s authority (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us) to belittle our doctrines.

 

[crochet_lady]

“gmanlq” continued.
Unless the Catholic church considers the Lake of Fire to Be purgatory. Vs 14 sounds pretty Final – This is the 2nd death ".
Rev. 21: 1 - 5 " a New heaven and new earth, for the old had passed away.
And the holy city, New Jerusalem was coming down from heaven from God vs. 4 there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying – all former things have passed away.
vs 8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Or is the ‘shall have their part’ the concept of ‘purgatory’ would come in. But wouldn’t that Also refer to people who have made a life habit of those sins even AFTER having ‘outwardly’ made some sort of ‘confession of sins’ –
when that person Continues in those activities – obviously something hasn’t ‘clicked’ in their heart. Someone Should care enough to take the person aside and in a loving way – question Why they continue to do those things. But NOT by pounding the person over their head with a Bible.

A comment has been made that we who leave out the 7 Apocrphal books are missing so much of God’s Word. Well – there Are the rest of the 66 books that Are / have been the majority of the Bible for a LONG time. Since there had been a question since even Before they Were incorporated , as to their need to Be included. Apparently their authenticity has been questioned. For whatever reason, they were not considered as being of the same calaber as the rest of the books.
And I also realize that my comments are Not particularly appreciated here, but there Are other perspectives ’ out there."

 

[pablope]

“gmanlq” continued.

 

[Goya]

…

A comment has been made that we who leave out the 7 Apocrphal books are missing so much of God’s Word. Well – there Are the rest of the 66 books that Are / have been the majority of the Bible for a LONG time. Since there had been a question since even Before they Were incorporated , as to their need to Be included. Apparently their authenticity has been questioned. For whatever reason, they were not considered as being of the same calaber as the rest of the books.

And I also realize that my comments are Not particularly appreciated here, but there Are other perspectives ’ out there."

First, I think your ‘perspective’ here, is rather healthy–sometimes the best way to get to ‘Truth’, and to bring it into clearer focus, is through error. …and you’re doing a great job bringing the ‘error’!

I kid…

In all sincerity and charity, I appreciate your participation here.

Now, onto my second point…

Just as a side consideration for you–might it change your perspective to know that those books you call ‘apocrypha’ were in the ‘bible’ that Christ and the Apostles used?

It’s called the Septuagint–the Greek translation of the OT–it was completed approx. 100-200 years before Christ was born, it was the ‘version’ of scripture used in the region where Christ grew up, lived and carried out his ‘ministry,’ and the version known by Christ and the Apostles. The Septuagint contained those books.

Also worth noting–the Septuagint is cited 135x in the New Testament to the exclusion of the Hebrew OT–thus proving my contention above–that it was the version used by Christ and the Apostles…

Also worth noting–the original Hebrew texts of the OT were lost upon the sack of J’salem by the Romans, and the resulting diaspora of the Jews, in 70 AD. Hence what many ppl. call the ‘original Hebrew’ texts of the OT, were actually reconstituted from the Septuagint, in 200 AD–by the Jewish authorities–AFTER Christianity had proven to be a very problematic sect within Judaism. So, part of that ‘reconstitution,’ was to delete those ‘apocryphal’ (rather deuteroncanonical) books–in order to make the Jewish ‘bible’, less Christological.

Now, if you’re wondering why the reformers rejected them–there are differing theories…the one I subscribe to, is that in typical egocentric, narcissistic Lutheran arrogance…Martin Luther figured he knew better than Christ or the apostles.

…but that’s just me.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

 And Bible / God's Word Is to be our final authority.

God’s Word is NOT = to the Bible.
The Bible is God’s Word (according to the Catholic Church), but it’s not ALL of it.

So, regarding the belief that the Bible is our final authority: where can I find that stated in the Bible?

Which is why there Are lots of denominations – God does Not force anyone to believe any certain way. But He Does tell us that He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Him (the Father) but through Jesus Christ, His Son. And we are also told to Not forsake the assembling of ourselves together to worship with those of like faith / belief because there had been those who Did.

Yes. Absolutely.
And, this is stated in Hebrews in the middle of a section describing the Eucharist and other Sacraments. So, the “assembling together” is in a Eucharistic and Liturgical context.

And, of course we are NOT to just go out and sin freely and not expect any negative consequences.

What do you believe those consequences to be? They surely can’t be limited to worldy consequences; I can see many people of extremely poor morals prospering greatly (see Hollywierd, as a huge example).

A ‘believer’ still has the sin nature

EXACTLY.

And, this sin nature is incompatible with the presence of an all-Holy God.
And, most of us will die with this sin nature still having some root in us. This MUST be “purged” before we can see God.

So - Where does purgatory fit into all this.

Purgatory will be emptied at the time of the Final Judgement. All people will then meet their final destiny. (May God have Mercy on us all!)

 

[Tom_Baum]

Geo17

You wrote, " I can’t see her as the Mother of God."

Ever thought about Mary as being the Mother of God-Incarnate?

Ever thought about when Jesus taught us the “Our Father” that it was also directed to Mary?

Not only is Jesus our Brother but Mary is our sister.

 

[Contarini]

Fatherknowsbest #33

You asked 'why not try to emulate Mary as well as Christ"? We have a Perfect example in Jesus Christ to emulate – All others are totally human and are prone to sinfulness.

So Jesus isn’t totally human?

I get that you mean “just human.” But I still think you are misspeaking here. The saints aren’t more human than Jesus. Quite the other way round. Jesus is the perfect human being. And Jesus’ glory is reflected in the saints. The more we honor them, the more we honor Him. Jesus came “to bring many sons to glory,” as Hebrews says. The saints aren’t in competition with Him.

And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only.

It doesn’t work like that. Jesus is one Person. Mary can’t just be the mother of His human nature. The human nature doesn’t exist in and of itself (in technical theological language, it’s “anhypostatic” and “enhypostatic”).

Your post demonstrates that Marian doctrines really boil down to Christology. Most things do, in Christian theology. What we believe about Jesus affects everything else. And while I recognize and honor the fact that you do intend to affirm the Incarnation, your unwillingness to call Mary the Mother of God indicates that you stop a bit short of fully doing so.

How could Mary be the Mother of God – because 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth … mankind included.

Mary is the mother of Jesus. And Jesus is God. “Mother of” here does not mean “causes the existence of” but “stands in a maternal relationship to.” (The original Greek term is “Theotokos,” “God-bearer.” But it’s more than just one act of giving birth–it’s about the whole relationship.)

Similarly, we say that God died on the Cross. That doesn’t mean that God ceased to exist on the Cross, but that the person Jesus, who is both God and man, underwent the human experience called death on the Cross.

It’s all about affirming the Incarnation fully.

Mary Was the ‘tool’ that God used to deliver Jesus His Son into the world as a Baby.

So we’re just tools to God?

This is not the orthodox, Catholic view of God. You may of course disagree. But understand what you are disagreeing with.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Consider: Martin Luther is the main force behind declaring the Deuterocanonical books to be “non-inspired.” .

This is simply untrue. Luther’s doubts about these books were shared by others of his time, and in fact he did not cause them to be excluded from Scripture. The Reformed bear the responsibility for that far more than Luther did.

This isn’t relevant to this thread. But it’s a blatant slander against Luther and I didn’t want to let it pass.

Edwin

 

[SanctusMarcus]

hi everyone.

i still seem to be struggling with mary.

i have no problem asking for her intercession, i think i understand and believe all the marian doctrines and how they fit in with Jesus.

but the problem i’m having is, have we maybe gone a little too far?

here is a page of marian prayers.

marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

i know we don’t worship her but with some of these, the line really seems to be blurred. our life, hope and sweetness. devoting our entire selves to her, obtain for us salvation, EtC.

i don’t know, i’m just really having some issues with this. i feel like maybe some of it has gone a little too far.

and the bible is really not much help on this, Jesus is relatively silent on his mother, doesn’t really honour much in scripture with a ton of illustrious titles. i have heard a ton of protestant accusations on this and i have to admit, it’s a little hard to defend.

has anyone else ever had issues with this? thanks

When I first converted to Catholicism, I had a problem with Our Lady. But in due time, Our Lady opened my heart to Her.

In terms of Protestant accusation: One title Holy Mother Church gives Our Lady is the title of Queen. Now, to the average Protestant, honouring Mary as Queen of Heaven may seem as if we are worshipping Her. However, when one reads about Hebrew culture, one discovers that in Hewbrew culture, the mother of the King was the Queen, not the King’s wife! The reason for this was that many Hebrew Kings normally had multiple wife’s. To give one of his wives the title of Queen, meant that she was favoured about the other wives, which would have started a war in the King’s Household!! In order for peace to reign (and for the King’s peace of mind!), it was decided that the King’s mother would bear the title of Queen Mother of Israel.

We read in the Old Testament, in the Books of Kings, that King Solomon honoured his Mother, Bethsabee (or Bathsheeba), by bowing to her, and commanding a throne be set up alongside his for her to sit on. Our Lord Himself would not deny this privilege to His Mother, who is the true Queen!

Also, whenever a subject of the King wished for His Majesty’s consideration on a certain matter, it was the norm for the lowly subject to ask the Queen Mother for her intercession. This is what we do when we ask Our Blessed Lady to pray for us!

Again, if we look at the Books of Kings, we find that Bethsabee is asked by a subject of King Solomon to intercede for him to the King. When The Queen Mother approaches the King, she asks if he (the King) would be gracious enough to hear her petition. King Solomon responds by saying that he would not refuse her anything she asked for, because she was his mother! Doesn’t this sound like some people we know? (Jesus and Mary)!!

Now, it is true that the heathens worshipped a goddess that they called “Queen of Heaven”, however, this was a shadow of Our Lady.
Secondly, the Greeks called Zeus “King of Heaven”, the Romans dubbed Jupiter thus likewise: does this mean that we cannot refer to the True God as King of Heaven? Absolutely not! Anyone who uses this argument has less sense than the very gods the heathens worshipped!

In reference to Our Lady being Mater Dei or Mother of God:

Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus: thus Mary is Mother of God the Son: or for short: Mother of God.

Another example would be Hercules. Now Hercules was vained by the Greeks to have been a Demi-god (half divine). His mother would have been known as Alcmene the mother of (the) god (Hercules): not as: Alcmene who is mother of Hercules, who just happens to be a god.

Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus: thus Mary is Mother of God. Not: Mary is Mother of Jesus, Who just incidently happens to be God!!

I hope some of this helps you.

And may Our Lady bless you with Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ.