Student received a book of mormon

[PaulDupre]

Ok, I am always learning something new on this forum. I see that the question of “basketball and baseball baptisms” has not been answered. I have never heard of such a thing and would like to know the answer. Please?

Although the LDS organzation claims 13 million members worldwide, there are many on the roles of the LDS Church who never considered themselves Mormon.

If you discount the “hamburger baptisms” in Mexico, the Pacific Islands and Central and South America, the “basketball baptisms” in the Philippines, the “I want a sponsor so I can go to America” baptisms in Asia and the “young girl in love with an elder” baptisms all over the world, the number of real Mormons is probably closer to 5 million.

Remember that most LDS baptisms take place within a few weeks after their first contact with the Mormon “elders”.

These “converts” go inactive almost immediately after their “elder” is transferred away, and would be very surprised that they are still on the roles of the LDS church.

As a Mormon missionary in Taiwan, my companions and I spent a good deal of our time tracking down inactive converts. Most were surprised and embarrased that we considered them to be Mormons. Most did not even really know what a Mormon was or what the Mormons believe. But many of them (especially the ladies) still had a picture of “my American” from years before and asked if we knew him and had his current address.

The activity rate in most of Taiwan was about 5%.

As to “basketball baptisms” in the Philippines:

Basketball is the most popular sport in the Philippines. The kids are wild for it. Every LDS chapel has a really nice full-court basketball court in front of it, in plain view from the street. There is an LDS basketball league, complete with cool uniforms. Young men and women are recruited to play in the league and given uniforms and shoes (to these poor kids this is amazing). After weeks of practices, the kids are informed that in order to play in the league games, they must be baptized members of the church. A permission slip is sent home, which states that the child has the parents’ permission to play in the basketball league as a member of the church. The parents, not understanding what they are signing, sign the permission slip and the baptism is performed (usually without the parents in attendance). The kid is then considered a Mormon and is put on the roles of the church and credited to that missionary. Remember that the kid has never had any religious training in Mormonism and has no idea that this isn’t just another Christian organization.

I know about this because my wife (a Filipina) and I own property in the Philippines and vacation their every year. I have seen this happen to families we know.

I assume that the “baseball baptisms” are similar.

The “hamburger baptisms” in Latin America are even more straightforward - the missionaries offer to buy a poor, hungry kid a hamburger if he will come down to the chapel and be baptized. There were many hundreds of thousands of these sham baptisms performed from 1960 to 1990. Eventually publicity about these shams forced the LDS church to halt the practice.

But all those kids are still on the roles of the LDS church.

Paul

 

[dianaiad]

Although the LDS organzation claims 13 million members worldwide, there are many on the roles of the LDS Church who never considered themselves Mormon.

If you discount the “hamburger baptisms” in Mexico, the Pacific Islands and Central and South America, the “basketball baptisms” in the Philippines, the “I want a sponsor so I can go to America” baptisms in Asia and the “young girl in love with an elder” baptisms all over the world, the number of real Mormons is probably closer to 5 million.

Remember that most LDS baptisms take place within a few weeks after their first contact with the Mormon “elders”.

These “converts” go inactive almost immediately after their “elder” is transferred away, and would be very surprised that they are still on the roles of the LDS church.

As a Mormon missionary in Taiwan, my companions and I spent a good deal of our time tracking down inactive converts. Most were surprised and embarrased that we considered them to be Mormons. Most did not even really know what a Mormon was or what the Mormons believe. But many of them (especially the ladies) still had a picture of “my American” from years before and asked if we knew him and had his current address.

The activity rate in most of Taiwan was about 5%.

As to “basketball baptisms” in the Philippines:

Basketball is the most popular sport in the Philippines. The kids are wild for it. Every LDS chapel has a really nice full-court basketball court in front of it, in plain view from the street. There is an LDS basketball league, complete with cool uniforms. Young men and women are recruited to play in the league and given uniforms and shoes (to these poor kids this is amazing). After weeks of practices, the kids are informed that in order to play in the league games, they must be baptized members of the church. A permission slip is sent home, which states that the child has the parents’ permission to play in the basketball league as a member of the church. The parents, not understanding what they are signing, sign the permission slip and the baptism is performed (usually without the parents in attendance). The kid is then considered a Mormon and is put on the roles of the church and credited to that missionary. Remember that the kid has never had any religious training in Mormonism and has no idea that this isn’t just another Christian organization.

I know about this because my wife (a Filipina) and I own property in the Philippines and vacation their every year. I have seen this happen to families we know.

I assume that the “baseball baptisms” are similar.

The “hamburger baptisms” in Latin America are even more straightforward - the missionaries offer to buy a poor, hungry kid a hamburger if he will come down to the chapel and be baptized. There were many hundreds of thousands of these sham baptisms performed from 1960 to 1990. Eventually publicity about these shams forced the LDS church to halt the practice.

But all those kids are still on the roles of the LDS church.

Paul

Paul, prove all of the above.

I want statistics.
I want actual, documented histories, that I can check.
I want numbers.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It is frowned upon, but it happens. They are joining for the wrong reason.

Diana

Not really what either Paul or I were referencing.

It is a practice that occurred in the UK and Phillipines (at least) where missionaries would befriend groups of kids and play baseball or basketball with them. Where, they would get them to agree to be baptized and would baptized them (often the whole group) without their parents knowing. Just lead them on down to the nearest river and baptize them all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

if there was a misunderstanding with your daughter’s friend, I’m sorry. You handled it exactly right.

Notice, however, that the missionaries did talk to YOU, and not to her.

Notice, however, that they did not go behind your back.

Notice, however, that your very experience proves that we aren’t the ones lying here.

They would have if I weren’t at home.

You stated that children are not targeted by your missionaries. Clearly, they are, and it is only a constant vigilance as a parent that keeps them from your reach.

 

[1holycatholic]

Have you notified the child’s parents?

They may not be aware of it. I surely would want to know. I was “wined and dined” as a teenager, they even tried to lure me into their place without my parents’ knowledge. This happened to my friend’s son, and they hooked him in.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Did you have coffee after dinner?

 

[PaulDupre]

I want statistics.
I want actual, documented histories, that I can check.
I want numbers.

We’d all like to have those re: 13 million Mormons.

My post was from personal experience.

As a Mormon missionary in Taiwan, my companions and I spent a good deal of our time tracking down inactive converts. Most were surprised and embarrased that we considered them to be Mormons. Most did not even really know what a Mormon was or what the Mormons believe. But many of them (especially the ladies) still had a picture of “my American” from years before and asked if we knew him and had his current address.

I know about this because my wife (a Filipina) and I own property in the Philippines and vacation their every year. I have seen this happen to families we know.

I testify about this as an eye-witness. You know about testimony, right?

 

[dianaiad]

Not really what either Paul or I were referencing.

It is a practice that occurred in the UK and Phillipines (at least) where missionaries would befriend groups of kids and play baseball or basketball with them. Where, they would get them to agree to be baptized and would baptized them (often the whole group) without their parents knowing. Just lead them on down to the nearest river and baptize them all.

I would have to know what, when, who, where—and what happened to the missionaries who did it.

For one thing, I was a missionary in the UK, and I can tell you that if that had happened when I was there, the missionaries involved would have been sent home so fast they might not have had time to slam the door before the plane took off.

So yeah, I am asking for confirmation on this.

 

[dianaiad]

They would have if I weren’t at home.

You stated that children are not targeted by your missionaries. Clearly, they are, and it is only a constant vigilance as a parent that keeps them from your reach.

I’m sorry, Rebecca, but…

I WAS a missionary. I know what I was trained to do and what I was told to never do…and what you are describing is one of the biggest 'no-no’s there is.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

And of course, if I had a student, I may tell him not to look into the catholic church because certain segments of the catholic church deny the holocaust. Would you agree?

Then you would be lying.

I wouldn’t recommend it.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m sorry, Rebecca, but…

I WAS a missionary. I know what I was trained to do and what I was told to never do…and what you are describing is one of the biggest 'no-no’s there is.

Here is the result of a google search on “Mormon baseball baptisms”. Note that they took place mainly in the UK, where you say you served a mission. No doubt you heard about this. These are not mainly anti-Mormon reports, but reports and discussions about the problem by Mormons. If you google hamburger baptisms or basketball baptisms, you will find similar results.

Happy reading.

 

[IrishJoe]

I told him that i didn’t recommend he read the book, but read his bible instead. I would like to give him some information about Joseph Smith and the mormon church (from a Catholic perspective) at a level that a grade 6 would understand. I think the text at catholic.com may be too advanced.

why not get mormon info from mormons ?

A certain segment of the catholic church considers it from satan

I thought the RCC was supposed to subscribe to one common set of beliefs.

And of course, if I had a student, I may tell him not to look into the catholic church because certain segments of the catholic church deny the holocaust. Would you agree?

Then you would be lying.

the bishop that was un-excomunnicated denies the holocaust… ergo he’s not lying

 

[dianaiad]

Then you would be lying.

I wouldn’t recommend it.

Uhm…are you telling me that there are no Catholics anywhere that are Holocaust deniers?

I would like to think that this is true, but…unfortunately, I know that it is not true. Their opinion of the Holocaust has nothing whatsoever to do with their religion, however.

 

[dianaiad]

Here is the result of a google search on “Mormon baseball baptisms”. Note that they took place mainly in the UK, where you say you served a mission. No doubt you heard about this. These are not mainly anti-Mormon reports, but reports and discussions about the problem by Mormons. If you google hamburger baptisms or basketball baptisms, you will find similar results.

Happy reading.

Excuse me. What do you mean 'where * SAY I served my mission?*

 

[nebula]

I rather think that if it was given to him by a friend, he probably won’t get past “I, Nephi, being born of goodly parents…” and any aghast reaction a teacher has will only give him incentive to find out what the horrible truth about it IS.

Which would of course be good for US (the Mormons…) but isn’t exactly what a catechism teacher might want.

…and the above statement is flippant. It wouldn’t be what we would want.

1. No twelve year old should be doing this without the approval of his parents.The teacher should refer him to them.
2. If he HAS the approval of his parents, a teacher would be well advised to stay out of it; tell your priest, let family counseling handle it. Does any teacher really want to get between a student and his parents? NOT a good idea.

Either way, the teacher should say 'that’s nice…now, what was it we were talking about in regard to Mary?" and redirect the conversation to the information he needs to know about his OWN faith.

If the kid asks questions and insists upon answers from the teacher, then it really, truly IS the time to bump it to the parents.

Or, if he insists, get the information from lds.org. When the child asks questions, answer them according to what HE is asking, not what the teacher thinks he is asking.

I am reminded of the old story about the kid who came up and asked his mother where he came from. Mom took a deep breath, and gave him ‘the talk.’

At the end of it, he looked at her and said “Wow. I just wanted to know if we came from Milwaukee.”

Pay attention to what is really being asked, not what you are afraid is being asked.

That’s not always a bad tactic, actually, but sometimes there is a learning experience possible and this may be an opportunity to teach him about other religious beliefs and the fact that people believe in things that his own faith community, for x, y and z reasons, consider wrong. This is just one of many experiences he will have as a human being in a religiously pluralistic society, better for him to get some experience making friends of those of different faiths while understanding his own grounding in his faith and understanding that it is okay to deeply disagree and still get along.

If he seems receptive to these ideas, this is actually a great lesson and the perfect age to begin to ‘get it’.

 

[dianaiad]

Here is the result of a google search on “Mormon baseball baptisms”. Note that they took place mainly in the UK, where you say you served a mission. No doubt you heard about this. These are not mainly anti-Mormon reports, but reports and discussions about the problem by Mormons. If you google hamburger baptisms or basketball baptisms, you will find similar results.

Happy reading.

Thank you. I went ‘there.’

of the several pages of links, all but one were from excommunicated members with an ax to grind, and one was from a Mormon who gave a link…and from there I found out that President Joseph Fielding Smith, when he took over the mission system in the church, found the one mission that was doing this and wrote a very strong letter telling them to lay off–and that was considerably over half a century ago.

Which rather explains why I, as a missionary in the Southwest British Mission (well before that was split into four different missions) was specifically told that such activities were not to be used; that no child was to be taught without the permission of the parent, period.

 

[nebula]

The problem here is quite simple: A protestant would certainly think that catholicism is a flawed religion. And a catholic would certainly think that protestantism is also a flawed faith. What to do with flaws? However, stressing the positives and negatives would be the way to go. But to only stress flaws would only sow distaste and misunderstandings. And certainly not wellbeing between peoples.

The situation you describe is actually different because Catholicism considers trinitarian Protestants full Christians, ‘separated bretheren’ (insofar as Catholicism recognizes trinitarian baptisms valid). Mormonism is frankly a difficult case to consider nto just for the RCC or a variety of Protestant groups, but in scholarly circles as well because ti has so many distinctive doctrines, coupled with distinctive scriptures and rituals while insisting on being considered fully Christian. That’s actually one reason why Mormonism has been gaining more attention in scholarly circles studying American religions- it’s considered a classic boundary case, one foot in the door, and one foot out of, the more established Christian crowd. It brings up all kinds of interesting questions about how much do you privelege self identifications (i.e. “we ARE christians”) even if those self identifications don’t seem to fit so well (like a person who is obviously a modalist trying to insist on her triniatrianism), who has the right to define who should be included in a religious group, and on and on…

Okay, that’s a mouthful, but it is to say it’s not all so black and white, it’s really not. I think a lot of Mormons recognize this, as I did as a fully active, temple worthy Mormon, and the sooner that the Mormon community realizes the difficulties the sooner it can more effectively deal with whatever it may perceive to be problems with its image.

 

[dianaiad]

That’s not always a bad tactic, actually, but sometimes there is a learning experience possible and this may be an opportunity to teach him about other religious beliefs and the fact that people believe in things that his own faith community, for x, y and z reasons, consider wrong. This is just one of many experiences he will have as a human being in a religiously pluralistic society, better for him to get some experience making friends of those of different faiths while understanding his own grounding in his faith and understanding that it is okay to deeply disagree and still get along.

If he seems receptive to these ideas, this is actually a great lesson and the perfect age to begin to ‘get it’.

This would be true—IF the teacher actually knows what those other beliefs are and can present them with respectful disagreement. However, it has been my experience (about forty years of it) that this simply isn’t possible.

Not that the teacher might not want, very much, to TRY to do this, but In all my years of looking I have only seen one group get the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints RIGHT…as in, ‘correct,’ and that group has since gone a little batty.

If non-members are that nutty about my beliefs, I figure that they are probably just as nutty about everybody else’s. So…it’s probably a good idea not to try to teach someone else’s religion to anybody, unless you have a True Believer right there to knock you back on track.

 

[PaulDupre]

Excuse me. What do you mean 'where * SAY I served my mission?*

You didn’t say that? I thought you did.

 

[nebula]

This would be true—IF the teacher actually knows what those other beliefs are and can present them with respectful disagreement. However, it has been my experience (about forty years of it) that this simply isn’t possible.

Not that the teacher might not want, very much, to TRY to do this, but In all my years of looking I have only seen one group get the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints RIGHT…as in, ‘correct,’ and that group has since gone a little batty.

If non-members are that nutty about my beliefs, I figure that they are probably just as nutty about everybody else’s. So…it’s probably a good idea not to try to teach someone else’s religion to anybody, unless you have a True Believer right there to knock you back on track.

I’d suggest he do a balanced study, including the basic information of mormon.org as well as Catholic written materials on the topic. I’m not sure what you consider a ‘good’ presentation of Mormonism so i have no idea if I’d agree with it or not . In my experience no matter what you do there are Mormons (or replace with Catholics or what have you depending on the context) who aren’t going to be happy wtih a presentation, so that isn’t necessarily a good measure of what an accurate presentation would be. I’ve also noted many well meaning Mormons, returned missionaries, seminary and institute graduates, who really didn’t know some basic facts. One guy who was an active returned missionary, institute graduate and was a fellow graduate student in comparative religion, yet learned from me, a mere convert, while I was giving a lecture to a class about Mormonism that Joseph Smith had many wives. Imagine that!

Sometimes it is best to consider outside sources. Would you really buy a car asking ONLY that car’s manufacturer about the car? You’d be interested in government stats on safety, why some people don’t care for the car, as well as from the car lovers.

 

[PaulDupre]

Thank you. I went ‘there.’

of the several pages of links, all but one were from excommunicated members with an ax to grind, and one was from a Mormon who gave a link…

MIchael Quinn, Sunstone Magazine, PBS, The Mormon Apologetics Board, Times and Seasons - these are excommunicated Mormons with an axe to grind?