Study: Homosexuality, celibacy didn't cause abuse

[irishpatrick]

Of course, I think we agree that Church hiearchy must take at least some blame for the abuse, at least the non-response and moving around of Priests, etc.

 

[djeter]

It leads us to a proper and mature response, and not just a knee jerk response based on bias and agendas.

Please, go back and read your own post #68. We MUST discover why the culture perverted their God given freedom’s, or else we are doomed to repeat the sins and horrors of the last 30 years or so.

If the accusation you are selling here is that LazyDaisy, Dr. Satinover et.al. and my appreciation of their responses are “knee jerk responses based on bias and agendas,” then you are profoundly wrong. There is nothing “proper and mature” in your all too typical call for further obfuscations and analyses. Neither is the belief that we are “doomed to repeat the sins and horrors of the last 30 years or so.” I know what #68 said; you obviously don’t.

Knee jerk this.

dj

 

[irishpatrick]

If the accusation you are selling here is that LazyDaisy, Dr. Satinover et.al. and my appreciation of their responses are “knee jerk responses based on bias and agendas,” then you are profoundly wrong. There is nothing “proper and mature” in your all too typical call for further obfuscations and analyses. Neither is the belief that we are “doomed to repeat the sins and horrors of the last 30 years or so.” I know what #68 said; you obviously don’t.

Knee jerk this.

dj

Take care.

No reason to continue–as I said before.

 

[JHow]

This cannot be done for two reasons:

1. From Judaism we have that a woman can be married after she is able to conceive. Look at Our Lady.
2. There are many countries where women still marry as soon as they reach the age of sexual maturity. If they are Catholic, there is no doctrinal reason to deny them the Sacrament of Marriage. What the Church says is that the priest or deacon witnessing the marriage must follow the age requirements of civil law. In the USA it’s age 18. In some state in the USA, a mand or woman as young as 14 can marry with the consent of his or her parents. In most states it’s 16. There are two or three where it’s still 14.

To this point, I can offer the example of my own great-grandmother, who married at age 15 (and did not divorce later, or suffer any observable ill-effects that I know of, nor cause trauma to anyone, and left a large family as a legacy, who all remember and love her).

Teenagers are not necessarily weaklings or moral imbeciles, and knowing and doing what is right does not require higher education or a degree in theology (no offense meant to all those that hold such degrees). If we hold people to high standards, they will often acheive them.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Baby Boomers = the worst generation in USA history…not in world history.

[btw, you can name on one hand the cultures who have killed/slaughtered over 50-million innocents through war or any other means]

Okay.

In that context your claim isn’t as absurd as I initially thought:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yes, as a group they were very much worse.

Remaining on topic here, for I have strayed a bit and need to keep myself on the OP’s thread points, I will simply say that the abuse happened under the watch of the Boomers and was largely brought to us by that generation–that MUST be studied in depth so we can learn from it and make changes for the future. Within that study we cannot be blind to just how bad the Boomers really were (I say that with sadness because I am a Boomer and I hold much shame for my own peer group of citizens).

Of course, we must also remember (and I believe this is why the Boomers failed), that every human being from birth to death is in a spiritual battle, which means every person is capable of sin. We must fight against sin and we must realize that our real battle is of a spiritual nature. Sadly, most of those real truths were cast aside by the Boomers for other more worldly notions that replaced God’s truths (example: John Lennon and his sadly famous and quite popular song “Imagine”).

I do understand where you’re coming from.

That from a Catholic perspective (especially a Traditional Catholic perspective) rejecting legitimate authority is about the worst thing you can do.

But I do not agree with it.

For one thing embracing that point of view means that ‘I was only following orders’ becomes a legitimate justification for virtually anything (as long as the orders come from a legitimate authority).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I will not argue that Boomer parents did not play a role, yet not as much as you think (imo). The Boomers were unique in USA history. They flagrantly went against the teachings and wishes of their parents–that was PRECISELY what they were known for and what they were most proud of. They had the anti-parent, anti-authority, anti-God, anti-tradition, etc., mantras built into nearly everything they did. Woodstock was a huge poke in the eye of theur parents–they rejected Leave it to Beaver, and Church and faith, and zillions of good things their parents handed down to them. They were a generation who thought they were above all other generations–they wanted to literally sweep their parents generation away with a make love, not war ideology that was intended to replace everything that had come before.

Even regarding Vietnam to this day the Boomers brag about how they stopped that war–and they did. Yet, they never look back at what happened afterwardss, and the several million people who died there because the USA left under the pressure of the Boomer generation.

The Boomer parents were the ones who fought World War II and the Korean War–they in large measure held their faith and handed it down, along with most cultural and family traditions. The Boomers spit on all that and rejected it all outright, to the horror and dismay of their parents. Then later, when the Boomers woke-up, they became bitter and turned into being the greedy ones on Wallstreet and in business just as we all know so well today.

When a generation decides that, parents, God and Tradition means nothing, there can be no surprise that things for the nation will go poorly–**including in the seminaries and in our Churches.

I think the report has a great deal of merit.**

Yes, the Baby Boomers did reject the authority and traditions of their parents.
And one of the ways that they did that was by supporting the Civil Rights movement and by fighting segregation (which had a great deal of tradition and cultural capital behind it, especially in the South).

The Baby Boomers made the term racist an insult and racism itself (at least of the overt kind) taboo. That is a major achievement and something to be proud of.

Its also an accomplishment no previous American generation can claim.

 

[JVSantos]

God bless all the priest

 

[Holly3278]

Regardless of the cause, what happened was bad, very bad and I hope and pray it never happens again. I believe that it will never happen again like it did this last time. I believe the Church has it under control this time.

 

[bigquests]

I’m not sure I understand the objection. Ireland is smack dab in the middle of Western Civilization. The 60’s happened across ALL of the West, it wasn’t an American phenomenon. Bill’s just saying that the John Jay report cannot address Ireland because no data from Ireland was gathered by the study authors. Or are you referring to something I missed?

I am referring to his dismissal of the testimony, with excerpts on YouTube, from the Ryan Commission on abuse in Ireland. This precedes the current John Jay report, the so-called “Woodstock” defense, which I also find contemptible.

 

[Gift_from_God]

You make me laugh.

The absolute worst generation?

Worse than the generation of Germans who came of age during the Nazi regime?
Worse than the generation of Spanish who depopulated the Carribean Islands through their slave taking and brutal abuse towards the natives?
Worse than the generation of White South Africans that established their racist and ruthless regime?

You’re absolutely right. A lot of people don’t realize that certain generations weren’t in fact more moral than others.

 

[JHow]

…The Baby Boomers made the term racist an insult and racism itself (at least of the overt kind) taboo. That is a major achievement and something to be proud of.

Its also an accomplishment no previous American generation can claim.

If they are anything, the Boomers are the most self-congratulatory generation.

 

[manualman]

I’ll agree to that sensible notion, with a major caveat. I think the USA 60’s did not occur in a bubble. They were the culmination of what started in the early1900s when contraception quickly went from being universally considered shameful to socially acceptable. When you cut the lines securing a ship from the pier, it does not necessarily instantly drift far and fast away. Regardless of what the laws were, Ireland today has about as few babies per capita as America, i.e. the contraceptive mentality has a firm hold. Perhaps the basic sexual ethics of our two cultures are not so different as you think? Granted, I can’t speak for Ireland, but can you really speak for America?

Did the Irish Ryan commission attempt to look back more than 100 years? I’m not sure we really can gather reliable data that far back, but my suspicion is that sexual deviancy in the Church trends with sexual deviancy in the culture.

 

[Gift_from_God]

The Boomers were unique in USA history. They flagrantly went against the teachings and wishes of their parents–that was PRECISELY what they were known for and what they were most proud of.

Sometimes going against parents teachings are good. Many went against their parents ideologies of racism and sexism. Don’t forget; they also made rock music popular. You can’t fault them for that.

They had the anti-parent, anti-authority, anti-God, anti-tradition, etc., mantras built into nearly everything they did.

My dad told me that while he was in high school, the students still had a strong belief in God, even though they were boomers. They were just frustrated with the current system and wanted change.

Woodstock was a huge poke in the eye of theur parents–

How? It was just a music festival. Granted, it didn’t go as expected, but I would have loved to have been around back then and see Hendrix perform

they rejected Leave it to Beaver,

Church and faith, and zillions of good things their parents handed down to them. They were a generation who thought they were above all other generations–they wanted to literally sweep their parents generation away with a make love, not war ideology that was intended to replace everything that had come before.

Going against society is not going against the church. Sometimes we need a change.

The Boomer parents were the ones who fought World War II and the Korean War–they in large measure held their faith and handed it down, along with most cultural and family traditions.

And God bless them for saving democracy and bringing down the tyrants

The Boomers spit on all that and rejected it all outright, to the horror and dismay of their parents.

I believe that the Boomers are thankful for their parents’ service.

Then later, when the Boomers woke-up, they became bitter and turned into being the greedy ones on Wallstreet and in business just as we all know so well today.

I do believe that’s every generation since the industrial revolution

When a generation decides that, parents, God and Tradition means nothing, there can be no surprise that things for the nation will go poorly

Everyone goes through rebellious stages against their parents. If the Boomers didn’t think that parents meant anything, they wouldn’t try to be good parents to their kids. Regarding tradition, the culture back then was not good. Racism and sexism were prevalent back when the Boomers were born and they rebelled against that culture. They did not go against God Have some? Yeah, every generation has people who have, but saying that the whole generation did is ludicrous

 

[JHow]

Jharek, is this the Ryan report you are referring to?:

childabusecommission.com/rpt/ExecSummary.php
childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/

 

[Gift_from_God]

This study is ridiculous. Abuse has probably been going on for centuries. Saying that the sixties caused abuse has no merit. You know why the Baby Boomers and their kids look down on the abuse by priests? It’s because it’s common knowledge that you don’t sexually abuse children. Even though there was a sexual revolution, it did not make abusing young boys an okay thing to do

 

[PerfectTiming]

This study is ridiculous. Abuse has probably been going on for centuries. Saying that the sixties caused abuse has no merit. You know why the Baby Boomers and their kids look down on the abuse by priests? It’s because it’s common knowledge that you don’t sexually abuse children. Even though there was a sexual revolution, it did not make abusing young boys an okay thing to do

Establishing the cause of something doesn’t mean you’re saying what happened was okay.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

If they are anything, the Boomers are the most self-congratulatory generation.

I am not a Baby Boomer.
I was born in the 1980s.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Sometimes going against parents teachings are good. Many went against their parents ideologies of racism and sexism. Don’t forget; they also made rock music popular. You can’t fault them for that.

My dad told me that while he was in high school, the students still had a strong belief in God, even though they were boomers. They were just frustrated with the current system and wanted change.

How? It was just a music festival. Granted, it didn’t go as expected, but I would have loved to have been around back then and see Hendrix perform



Going against society is not going against the church. Sometimes we need a change.

And God bless them for saving democracy and bringing down the tyrants

I believe that the Boomers are thankful for their parents’ service.

I do believe that’s every generation since the industrial revolution

Everyone goes through rebellious stages against their parents. If the Boomers didn’t think that parents meant anything, they wouldn’t try to be good parents to their kids. Regarding tradition, the culture back then was not good. Racism and sexism were prevalent back when the Boomers were born and they rebelled against that culture. They did not go against God Have some? Yeah, every generation has people who have, but saying that the whole generation did is ludicrous

You have to keep something in mind when having discussions like this.

Which is that, as far as many conservatives/traditionalists are concerned, any amount of corruption, inequality, and oppression is better than rejecting tradition (or worse, traditional authority).

 

[markomalley]

From CNA:

A $2 million study commissioned by the U.S. bishops is not likely to put to rest questions about the causes of the sexual abuse crisis in the priesthood. Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a top psychiatrist and authority on treating sexually abusive priests, told CNA that he is “very critical” of the findings because they avoid discussing important causal factors in clerical sex abuse cases, namely homosexuality.
The study began to receive criticism on May 17, the day before it was released, in both the secular press and from Catholic experts who have studied the issues involved closely.

FWIW, I saw last night’s interview with Dr. Bill Donahue on EWTN’s World Over – he echoed a lot of the criticisms mentioned in this report, as well. I imagine that the program will be uploaded to the EWTN YouTube channel later on this afternoon or Monday (as of 1:45 EDT, it wasn’t yet).