Study the Qur’an?

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Servant, How does one know He will come like a thief in the night? Who said that and why does one believe that?

Btw Is it in the Quran?

MJ
2 Peter 3:10 - “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

Matthew 24:42-44

“Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the householder had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

From the Koran, This was interesting "Then we sent our Messengers one after another, at intervals. Each time its Messenger came to a community they called him a liar so We made them follow one another too and turned them into myths and legends. Away with the people who have no faith! (Surat al-Muminun: 44) Quoted from here - islamicity.org/5640/jesus-will-return/

Regards Tony
 
It’s interesting that these Edicts of Muhammad commanding for Christians to be treated justly seem to terminate on the Day of Judgement or the hour of resurrection or the end of the world. Very interesting. The other edicts are the same.

Going by current events, these edicts may have expired but Muhammad says that He will stand up for Christians on the Day of Judgement.

The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of the World [Cairo Manuscript]

Whoever is unjust after this towards a [Christian] subject, breaks the covenant and rejects it, I will be his enemy on the Day of Judgment among all the Muslims.

The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of the World [Mount Carmel Manuscript]

This must not be violated or altered until the hour [of the Resurrection] and the end of the world.

The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of Najran

this must not be violated or altered until the hour of the Resurrection, Allah-willing.

These are short excepts of what is contained in these Covenants

*No compulsion is to be on them.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected.*
 
It’s interesting that these Edicts of Muhammad commanding for Christians to be treated justly seem to terminate on the Day of Judgement or the hour of resurrection or the end of the world. Very interesting. The other edicts are the same.

Going by current events, these edicts may have expired but Muhammad says that He will stand up for Christians on the Day of Judgement.

The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of the World [Cairo Manuscript]

Whoever is unjust after this towards a [Christian] subject, breaks the covenant and rejects it, I will be his enemy on the Day of Judgment among all the Muslims.

The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of the World [Mount Carmel Manuscript]

This must not be violated or altered until the hour [of the Resurrection] and the end of the world.

The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of Najran

this must not be violated or altered until the hour of the Resurrection, Allah-willing.

These are short excepts of what is contained in these Covenants

*No compulsion is to be on them.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected.*
I have always liked these documents. I remember reference to these in times past on CAF.

It is timely that they are again produced as so can consider the Study of the Koran to find out the Truth for themselves.

Regards Tony
 
It is timely that they are again produced as so can consider the Study of the Koran to find out the Truth for themselves.

Regards Tony
There is no truth in the quran. The quran pretty much denounces Christianity and you say to study it to find the truth? Especially being on Catholic forums …Whats your goal in saying this?
 
There is no truth in the quran. The quran pretty much denounces Christianity and you say to study it to find the truth? Especially being on Catholic forums …Whats your goal in saying this?
I’m assuming this is your first time dealing with the Baha’i…

They are a syncretist faith Jimmy, which means they have an interpretation of all major religions that tracts together…

…and just so happens to conflict with the traditionalist interpretations of all those major religions.

They are pretty benign.
 
I’m assuming this is your first time dealing with the Baha’i…

They are a syncretist faith Jimmy, which means they have an interpretation of all major religions that tracts together…

…and just so happens to conflict with the traditionalist interpretations of all those major religions.

They are pretty benign.
Being a religion of a mixed bag of others. Must give them the right to think they’re right. They may have read all the other scriptures …but I have yet to see them say study the other scriptures. Its all been in defence of the quran or islam
 
Being a religion of a mixed bag of others. Must give them the right to think they’re right
But that’s the thing Jimmy, you and I and any muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. can view them as a “mixed bag of others”

They don’t view themselves that way

Edit - the Particular Contingent of Baha’i on CAF tend to show up whenever a discussion about Islam occurs because the usual suspects who might give an alternative account of the understanding of Islam vis-a-vis the popularized version running in our heads numbers to about two people - Drac (a Sufi) and hasantas (a Sunni)

So, for the sake of tolerance, they tend to try and point out areas where non-Muslims might to paint in broad strokes, like implying all Muslims = Terrorists. Nothing particularly different from Catholics who at various ages had to suffer a similar type of stigma ((name removed by moderator) for instance is from Ireland and has much to speak about the matter of growing up during the time of the IRA).

Their own interpretation of the the Koran and Mohammed’s career is however…idiosyncratic. A Traditionalist Sunni for instance, would find their implications to be abhorrent… which is the reason why the Baha’i aren’t like that much in certain corners of the MIddle East.
 
Tony. Thanks for the reply. The mistrust and suspicion that exists between Chrisitans and Muslims is mainly founded on misunderstandings. It’s a responsibility to humanity for those who know to strain every nerve so that Muslims and Christians can live in harmony and peace and hatreds and mistrust cease. That is my only goal.

Read these beautiful Words from Muhammad to the Christians and decide for yourself. Are these denunciations of Christians or Christianity or the Church?! Decide for yourself.

I commit myself to support them, to place their persons under my protection, as well as their churches, chapels, oratories, the monasteries of their monks, the residences of their anchorites, wherever they are found, be they in the mountains or the valleys, caves or inhabited regions, in the plains or in the desert. I will protect their religion and their Church wherever they are found, be it on earth or at sea, in the West or in the East, with utmost vigilance on my part, the People of my House, and the Muslims as a whole.

(Muhammad, Covenant with Christians of Najran)

No Christian will be made Muslim by force

*If a Muslim takes a Christian woman as a wife, he must respect her Christian beliefs. He will give her freedom to listen to her [clerical] superiors as she desires and to follow the path of her own religion. Whoever, despite this order, forces his wife to act contrary to her religion in any aspect whatsoever he will have broken the alliance of Allah and will enter into open rebellion against the pact of His Messenger and Allah will count him among the impostors.
*
If the Christians approach you seeking the help and assistance of the Muslims in order to repair their churches and their convents or to arrange matters pertaining to their affairs and religion, these must help and support them. However, they must not do so with the aim of receiving any reward. On the contrary, they should do so to restore that religion, out of faithfulness to the pact of the Messenger of Allah, by pure donation, and as a meritorious act before Allah and His Messenger.

(Muhammad, Covenant with Christians of Najran)
 
But that’s the thing Jimmy, you and I and any muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. can view them as a “mixed bag of others”

They don’t view themselves that way

Edit - the Particular Contingent of Baha’i on CAF tend to show up whenever a discussion about Islam occurs because the usual suspects who might give an alternative account of the understanding of Islam vis-a-vis the popularized version running in our heads numbers to about two people - Drac (a Sufi) and hasantas (a Sunni)

So, for the sake of tolerance, they tend to try and point out areas where non-Muslims might to paint in broad strokes, like implying all Muslims = Terrorists. Nothing particularly different from Catholics who at various ages had to suffer a similar type of stigma ((name removed by moderator) for instance is from Ireland and has much to speak about the matter of growing up during the time of the IRA).

Their own interpretation of the the Koran and Mohammed’s career is however…idiosyncratic. A Traditionalist Sunni for instance, would find their implications to be abhorrent… which is the reason why the Baha’i aren’t like that much in certain corners of the MIddle East.
Thank you for your insight. Muchly appreciated!! 🙂
 
There is no truth in the quran. The quran pretty much denounces Christianity and you say to study it to find the truth? Especially being on Catholic forums …Whats your goal in saying this?
The only one does not see the Truth in the Koran is that they have not studied it without preconceived prejudices.

This is an obvious mistake we make looking for Gods Words. Best example for a Christian is that the Jews did not accept Christ. Why, mostly because of preconceived ideas they had gleaned from scriptures.

There are millions of Children in this world now that Love all religion as they are from God. All we have to do is teach them the Virtues and Gods Love for all through all His Religions and it becomes a way of life. The Goal is the next step for mankind which is now urgent is …

Unity

We are all the species of Man under One God, what has kept us apart? Worth meditating upon. God welcomes all that serve mankind in Love and Virtues.

Regards Tony
 
Are we supposed to count the dead bodies and compare? Do we stop at the leader or should we count the subsequent followers? How Many generations? Does abuse without death count?
I understand your position, however its not about dead bodies Syro, it’s about the teachings and the manner it is applied in its purest form.

I personally see no difference between the Ministry of Muhammad and the Ministry of Moses, who I deem as true Prophets. But I see a huge difference between Them and modern day prophets in their swanky multi million dollar cars and rock concert churches doing magic tricks and deceiving the masses.

We have a Pentecostal on the “Children of God” thread here at CAF who categorically calls all non-Christians the children of Satan. Has he/she been taught by a true prophet or a false prophet do you think? He/she is not unique in this thinking either Syro, I see Christians and Muslims and to a lesser extent some Jews thinking like this all the time.

The false prophets are well and truly amongst us.

Look at what the religion of Baha’u’llah has created. Temples throughout the world where anyone can come and worship the one God. In them you will find the Bible, the Quran, the Buddhist, Zoroastrian and Hindu texts. We come together, it unites under God and people feel at home in that environment, they feel embraced. A false prophet doesn’t create such things. A false prophet drives a wedge to divide, not unite.

Do you see the difference?

.
 
Being a religion of a mixed bag of others. Must give them the right to think they’re right. They may have read all the other scriptures …but I have yet to see them say study the other scriptures. Its all been in defence of the quran or islam
This is another statement prejudiced by preconceived ideas.

The Baha’i Faith is an Independent World Religion with Thousands of Authentic Original Writings.

That these writings explain how mankind has deviated from knowing our God is understandable given the state of the world today.

It is but One of Hundreds of Principals of the Baha’i Writings that the Source of all True Religion is our One and Only God.

Thus if one pursues that principal, one Finds it, so I would ask, why not look the connection to our One God is in all Scriptures?

So please take up the offer “STUDY” all the scriptures and find the “Sealed Wine” of Gods Word contained within. ;)😉

Regards Tony
 
Hi everyone,

My main concern is prejudice rearing its ugly head once again to precipitate a world war.

I have studied the Quran in depth about 40 years but am not a Muslim. The Quran is not understood in the west. It does not teach any form of violence but one requires a detailed knowledge of the history behind the verses. Fanatical groups such as Isis do not follow the Quran. They cherry pick verses out of context to make it look like the Quran promotes aggression such as 2:191 ‘kill them wherever you find them’ but the preceding verse which says ‘do not attack unless attacked first. God does not like such injustice’ is never quoted along with it.

Worldwide there are movements on the internet that deliberately quote out of context to their ignorant audience to create hatred & prejudice against Muslims. It would be as if you were an ignorant Christian audience and I said Christianity promoted violence by quoting ‘I come not to bring peace but a sword’ and mislead the entire audience and make thrm prejudiced against Christians.

This is what is happening throughout some sections in the west. Again, The Quran teaches only self defense no matter what you’ve been told. When Muhammad taught there was only one God, those who collected huge funds from the 360 idols they gathered felt threatened.
First they tried to bribe Him but He refused. Then they began persecution and finally killing His followers. When He still wouldn’t worship their idols then they decided that the entire Muslim community had to be exterminated. In other words GENOCIDE - a recognised war crime today unacceptable to anyone. Muhammad has no choice but to defend them or allow them to be brutally massacred.

Muhammad continued to free oppressed people but never attacked unless attacked.

After He died the Caliphs seized power although they knew the true successor was Ali and they began conquering with the sword especially the Umayyaids and Abbasids and to this day they are the ancestors of Isis.

There are so many verses proving that Muhammad loved the Christians, and His Edicts with groups like the monks of Sinai that ANY well educated person knows that Islam in its pure form was never violent but that the Caliphs corrupted it.

Matter of fact, IF Muslims read the Quran for themselves without the interpretation of their leaders the world today would not be threatened with terrorism.

Websites I visit accuse the pope and Catholics of trying to be friendly with Muslims and are against them having good relations but the Pope has the TRUE version of Islam and knows that the Quran does not teach violence.

Today’s terrorists have muddied the water only for those who are uneducated. But as I am fully educated I can see their cherry picking a mile away and it is designed to promote HATE something Christ was opposed to. Christ taught love.

But those who are killing in the name of God kill not in the name of God but in their own name. The verses of the Quran are taken out of context. They also use sayings which are not authoritative. The ONLY authoritative Book which Muhammad gave the Muslims was the Quran, any additions are NOT from God.

I fear those whipping up hatred will turn Christians against Muslims due mainly to ignorance.

Please, I pray God, be on your guard with people trying to create hatred between Muslims and Christians. They are not sincere and should be avoided as they are not lovers of God or Christ or humanity. We should love all humanity as they are all God’s children.
I have lost count of the many times I have read or debated that the Quran does not contain violence and fanatical groups like ISIS quote the Quran out of context. It’s “the terrorists have nothing to do with Islam” position. It is a position that our political leaders use knowing full well that Islam has everything to do with the violence perpetrated by ISLAMIC terrorists. They continually do this to prevent a backlash against Muslims living in the West. It is very noble of them but it is starting to really annoy people who know the truth and if the politicians continue in this way, they will cause a far greater backlash than if they just told the truth. Islamic terrorists are labelled as simply “terrorists” or “extremists” with the all important word “Islam” missing. You can watch a TV debate about Islamic terrorism for 20 minutes or longer and never hear the word Islam mentioned. When it is mentioned, Muslims like Mehdi Hasan will throw in a lie or misinformation and get the crowd clapping. People desperately want to believe that Islam is just like any other religion with a few bad apples but nothing could be further from the truth. I notice you do not include the Hadith in your comment. Why is this? In addition to the Quran, the Hadith contains lots of violent verses which can be interpreted to support violence today. When you mention this in a debate with Muslims, they will say that the Hadith is not the word of God. Hello – it’s the sayings of your prophet, Mohamed, you know the guy that you all want to emulate! The very same person you offer as a decent peace loving person. The Hadith is also the basis for Sharia Law which is called Allah’s Law no less.
CONT’D
 
CONT’D
Yes, there are sites that are completely OTT and deliberately quote Quranic passages out of context or make heavily biased statements. I have studied the affects of terrorism for many years but mainly Islamic terrorism in the past 2-3 years. The verse you quote is Matthew 10:34 and I agree it can be quoted out of context. How many other verses in the NT contain violence especially from Jesus? Compare that to the number of violent verses in the Quran and the Hadith. In fact, Jesus was so anti violence that He did not agree with violence even in self defence. There are a lot of Christian scholars who have studied Islam and ex Muslims who would completely disagree with you that Mohamed only fought in self defence. What about the Banu Qurayza Jews? They were POWs but Mohamed either took part in the beheadings of about 800 men incluuding boys with pubic hair or he OK’d his army to do it. Also they were not pagans so did not want Mohamed to worship “their idols”.

What about the verses that treat People of the Book (Christians and Jews) as Dhimmi status? We pay an additional tax etc ………. Quran 9:29 “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, [even if they are] of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”. It’s the bit: “and feel themselves subdued” that is a real problem. This can be and has been interpreted in all manners of ways.

Muslims that don’t read the Quran, rarely go to the mosque and rarely pray and have the odd beer that are the moderate and peaceful Muslims. It’s the Muslims that read the Quran and other Islamic scripture very often, pray regularly and go to the mosque and Islamic centres very often that are a concern. Well if the Pope has the TRUE version of Islam, why did he make this disgraceful remark after the Charlie Hebdo massacre: ‘if you insult my mother, I’ll punch you in the face”. This caused thousands of Muslims to march through London with half of them carrying banners with the above statement and “Pope Francis” at the bottom. The other half had banners reading: “Don’t insult the Prophet” etc. None of them held banners reading: “the Islamic terrorists were wrong” or “it is OK to draw cartoons of Mohamed”. The Vatican had to say that the Pope does not condone what happened to Charlie Hebdo staff later. Don’t get me wrong, I really like Pope Francis – he is a breath of fresh air. He was completely wrong on that occasion. Likewise, why have some Catholic priests written excellent articles on the violence of Islam? Surely the Vatican would have called their Bishops if the articles were incorrect. Here is a good example:
hprweb.com/author/rev-michael-p-orsi/

You are fully up to speed on what Muslims use to deflect criticism away from Mohamed and Islam as in: “They also use sayings which are not authoritative”. The beheading of the approx 800 Banu Qurayza Jews was written about by the first biographer of Mohamed, Ibn Ishaq. He stated that Mohamed personally took part in the beheadings. Amazing that his Hadiths are not considered to be authoritative – don’t you think?

You have mentioned ISIS etc not following the true Islam but you failed to mention the tens to hundreds of millions of Muslims who support these acts of Islamic terror or have sympathy with the reasons why these acts of Islamic terror are carried out. This is a large minority in non Muslim countries and a majority in Muslim countries. A good yardstick to judge whether a Muslim is extreme or not is ask if they want Islamic Sharia Law. If they want Islamic Sharia Law; they are Islamic extremists. Islamic Sharia Law with all its civil and human rights abuses is true Islam – isn’t it? About 40% of Muslims in the UK and 52% in the US want Islamic Sharia Law. Here are the Muslims who supposedly do not follow the true Islam; there are a lot of them and many more surveys:

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY
Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war
YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-infanticide/
ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html
World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

Are you a closet Muslim?
 
I understand your position, however its not about dead bodies Syro, it’s about the teachings and the manner it is applied in its purest form.

I personally see no difference between the Ministry of Muhammad and the Ministry of Moses, who I deem as true Prophets. But I see a huge difference between Them and modern day prophets in their swanky multi million dollar cars and rock concert churches doing magic tricks and deceiving the masses.

We have a Pentecostal on the “Children of God” thread here at CAF who categorically calls all non-Christians the children of Satan. Has he/she been taught by a true prophet or a false prophet do you think? He/she is not unique in this thinking either Syro, I see Christians and Muslims and to a lesser extent some Jews thinking like this all the time.

The false prophets are well and truly amongst us.

Look at what the religion of Baha’u’llah has created. Temples throughout the world where anyone can come and worship the one God. In them you will find the Bible, the Quran, the Buddhist, Zoroastrian and Hindu texts. We come together, it unites under God and people feel at home in that environment, they feel embraced. A false prophet doesn’t create such things. A false prophet drives a wedge to divide, not unite.

Do you see the difference?.
Dear Servant - When I read that I felt the Difference. That dear friend makes the Heart sing for all mankind, makes the heart sing for it to be so, makes the heart sing for all to join in 😉

Regards Tony
 
I have lost count of the many times I have read or debated that the Quran does not contain violence and fanatical groups like ISIS quote the Quran out of context. It’s “the terrorists have nothing to do with Islam” position. It is a position that our political leaders use knowing full well that Islam has everything to do with the violence perpetrated by ISLAMIC terrorists. They continually do this to prevent a backlash against Muslims living in the West. It is very noble of them but it is starting to really annoy people who know the truth and if the politicians continue in this way, they will cause a far greater backlash than if they just told the truth. Islamic terrorists are labelled as simply “terrorists” or “extremists” with the all important word “Islam” missing. You can watch a TV debate about Islamic terrorism for 20 minutes or longer and never hear the word Islam mentioned. When it is mentioned, Muslims like Mehdi Hasan will throw in a lie or misinformation and get the crowd clapping. People desperately want to believe that Islam is just like any other religion with a few bad apples but nothing could be further from the truth. I notice you do not include the Hadith in your comment. Why is this? In addition to the Quran, the Hadith contains lots of violent verses which can be interpreted to support violence today. When you mention this in a debate with Muslims, they will say that the Hadith is not the word of God. Hello – it’s the sayings of your prophet, Mohamed, you know the guy that you all want to emulate! The very same person you offer as a decent peace loving person. The Hadith is also the basis for Sharia Law which is called Allah’s Law no less.
CONT’D
I agree generally with this arte.

The fall of Islam today is undeniable.
Something does need to be done
Remember, I have family members in prison in Iran, friends who have been executed by Muslims who hate Baha’is…

But promoting prejudice about what Muhammad ACTUALLY taught is not the way to go about it.

I’d be the FIRST person to join your bandwagon, but I won’t, because I’ve studied through the freeing lens of Baha’u’llah. He is doing something about it though 😉

.
 
Are you a closet Muslim?
I like Woldcitizen’s Approach and as to what Servant offered above, any approach trying to bring up division is the way of the past. One could try unity and peace for a while, if it does not work we could always go back to the old way of the world.

Do not need to be in a closet, you may note we came out 😉

Personally the Love of Muhammad and Jesus and Moses and the Bab and Baha’u’llah is the same Love. One gives all one can to the First and the Last. 👍

Regards Tony
 
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