Study the Qur’an?

[arte]

But according arte, you can’t know this.

And you’re both Catholics

.

Please read my post again. I said: “In fairness to you, I have Christian friends who say the same thing”.

 

[Servant19]

Please read my post again. I said: “In fairness to you, I have Christian friends who say the same thing”.

My apologies, indeed you did.

God bless you arte. I know from your previous post that you have legitimate concerns about the state of the world.

I assure you we all do. The Baha’is are working tirelessly with the help of the Holy Spirit, to bring about the new heaven and the new earth brought to mankind by Baha’u’llah, where every tear shall be wiped away

.

 

[arte]

" The Father " did let Tue world know in 1863, though there were quite a few that had already recognised “The Father” before the “Time”.

It is actually amazing how.much there is in the Bible about Muhammad and then also the end times.

A large part of Revelation is about Muhammad’s Revelation and that it was to last 1260 years, prophetic in fact.

Regards Tony

Which “Father” let the World know in 1863? There is nothing in the Bible about Mohamed. In fact, it’s the other way around. It looks like Mohamed plagiarized from the Bible. His Allah looks just like the God of the OT in so many ways; not nice ways by the way. The only part of Revelation that would have anything to do with Mohamed would be parts that warn of a false prophet.

 

[Servant19]

Which “Father” let the World know in 1863? There is nothing in the Bible about Mohamed. In fact, it’s the other way around. It looks like Mohamed plagiarized from the Bible. His Allah looks just like the God of the OT in so many ways; not nice ways by the way. The only part of Revelation that would have anything to do with Mohamed would be parts that warn of a false prophet.

Dear arte,

I humbly ask you to watch this, so you can see the works of what a false prophet cannot bring…I kindly ask for 10 minutes of your time

youtu.be/vqg-qcadglU

.

 

[TonyBS]

Which “Father” let the World know in 1863? There is nothing in the Bible about Mohamed. In fact, it’s the other way around. It looks like Mohamed plagiarized from the Bible. His Allah looks just like the God of the OT in so many ways; not nice ways by the way. The only part of Revelation that would have anything to do with Mohamed would be parts that warn of a false prophet.

THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN Chapter 11 mentions much about the Message and Dispensation of Muhammad. When we look we will find.

One brief example occurs in Rev. 11:3 where the number 1260 appears: “And I will give power unto my two witnesses [Muhammad and the institution of the Imamate], and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days…”

Not for this thread though…

Thus when we find this, we can then conclude also that the Koran is also worthy of study.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[worldcitizen]

Hi Arte,

Firstly, my object is NOT to try and convert anyone to any faith or religion especially Islam even though I’m speaking about it in depth.

I’m interested in PEACE between all people. I speak to all people from all faiths and none, in the quest to dispel misunderstandings about each other that are obstacles to world peace.

Sura 9:29 of the Quran is not an isolated verse but is to be understood in the context of efforts by the Quraysh and Meccans to exterminate and destroy completely the Muslim community because it taught to worship one God not the 360 idols. So they were perpetrating GENOCIDE considered a war crime today.

After 13 years of attacks on Muhammad, in Medina Muhammad revealed 9:29 but he also revealed 2:190 ‘not to attack unless attacked first’.

Feeling subdued was very important in those times because there were no jails or prisons or handcuffs or police or courts so one had to fully subdue an enemy psychologically to stop their aggression. So a mass murderer and serial rapist all they had to do was pay a tax. No jail time. But they had to be subdued fully or they posed a threat to innocent women and children.

Fighting only applied to those perpetrating genocide not ordinary idol worshippers or ordinary unbelievers or Christians or Jews who didn’t take part in the genocide. They were free.

The Quran is the authority. It does not permit offensive aggression in one passage. It is all defensive. All the verses that say to go out and fight or kill are linked to events of Muslims being attacked and killed previously. After Muhammad died some Muslims turned away from the Quran’s defensive stance. Hadiths which contradict the Quran’s stance on defensive war are agression committed in breach of the Quran.

As far as Christ abhorring any form of violence. That is mostly correct except in the instance of the money changers in the Temple where He flew into a rage and overthrew tables.

Jesus had a sense of justice also. If His community would have been attacked by bloodthirsty savages intent on genocide do you think He would have just stood by and allowed every innocent man, women and child to be massacred?? I don’t think so from His reaction in the Temple and the money changes.

mt.21.12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

Would Jesus sit back and allow terrorists to destroy civilisation? In Muhammad’s place what would Jesus have done?

 

[arte]

Arte, can you seriously tell me that when the End Times do come, no one will know?
You are expecting the stars to fall, the sun to not give its light, the trumpets to blast from heaven, the entire world to be destroyed and a new one to be laid out in its stead and you’re gonna look at all this and say “Nope, no one will know when the End Times are coming. This isn’t it.”



.

We already know that the sun will likely burn off the oceans approx 1 billion years from now. It’s a long way off so as the years go on we will be able to establish the date a lot more accurately. Whatever, it is so far off that without doubt, we will not be waiting until it happens. We are not CURRENTLY in End Times. The greatest risks to this planet and us are: Muslims with nuclear weapons, climate change, and being hit by an asteroid. If Pakistan goes “pear shaped”, the West and Russia will destroy their nuclear weapons. The same for N Korea and their nuclear weapons. No other Muslim country will be allowed to have nuclear weapons e.g. Iran. Now, climate change - that is a big concern and could turn into End Times but I believe the warnings will be seen well in advance and we will ALL be forced to act. It and a large asteroid coming towards Earth could make us come together as one nation. Oops - too much like End Times.

 

[worldcitizen]

Was Christ really Crucified??

Crucifixion of Jesus

These passages confirm that in reality Christ was NOT crucified only His body was. But those who thought they had crucified the reality of Christ, that His memory would disappear from the face of the earth were told that Christ was not in reality crucified.

The bible distinguishes between killing of the body and spiritual death.

Bible on killing

mt.10.28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Quran on Christ’s Crucifixion

4:57

4:157 “We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!”
They did not kill Him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

Christ, the SPIRIT of God was never crucified or killed. Think about it.

 

[arte]

I agree generally with this arte.

The fall of Islam today is undeniable.
Something does need to be done
Remember, I have family members in prison in Iran, friends who have been executed by Muslims who hate Baha’is…

But promoting prejudice about what Muhammad ACTUALLY taught is not the way to go about it.

I’d be the FIRST person to join your bandwagon, but I won’t, because I’ve studied through the freeing lens of Baha’u’llah. He is doing something about it though .

I wasn’t aware of your position concerning your family and friends. All I can do is pray for them and I will do that. I am not convinced on this business of what Mohamed ACTUALLY taught. He does not come across as a decent person at all. With the exception of his act of pedophilia, his words and deeds are similar to the barbaric behaviour of Moses and some other OT prophets (?). We have a historical setting to most of the Biblical violence and we also have a New Testament. There are still extant violent passages in the Bible but Christians and modern Jews are not bound to them e.g. death for gays and adulterers. Most Christians do not interpret the OT literally. The same cannot be said for the Quran and the Hadith which do contain many extant violent passages; some that still threaten non Muslims today. Furthermore, most Muslims interpret the Quran and Hadith literally. Therefore, we have a double whammy with Muslims. I do not believe Muslims like other religious people will allow their holy scripture to be altered. Therefore, our best way forward is to help Muslims not to interpret their holy scripture literally. Our politicians have to start telling the truth about Islam and we must stop giving in to the many demands by Muslims in non Muslim countries. We also need to get the “left wing” on side because they are the people who are a major part in giving in to whatever Muslims ask for or say. They and our politicians are also the people who are helping to fuel the rise of right wing parties in Europe. I believe Islam will also fall as well but I hope it does not come to wide scale violence to achieve it. Can you please provide info on Baha’u’llah and him doing something about it.

 

[Servant19]

I wasn’t aware of your position concerning your family and friends. All I can do is pray for them and I will do that. I am not convinced on this business of what Mohamed ACTUALLY taught. He does not come across as a decent person at all. With the exception of his act of pedophilia, his words and deeds are similar to the barbaric behaviour of Moses and some other OT prophets (?). We have a historical setting to most of the Biblical violence and we also have a New Testament. There are still extant violent passages in the Bible but Christians and modern Jews are not bound to them e.g. death for gays and adulterers. Most Christians do not interpret the OT literally. The same cannot be said for the Quran and the Hadith which do contain many extant violent passages; some that still threaten non Muslims today. Furthermore, most Muslims interpret the Quran and Hadith literally. Therefore, we have a double whammy with Muslims. I do not believe Muslims like other religious people will allow their holy scripture to be altered. Therefore, our best way forward is to help Muslims not to interpret their holy scripture literally. Our politicians have to start telling the truth about Islam and we must stop giving in to the many demands by Muslims in non Muslim countries. We also need to get the “left wing” on side because they are the people who are a major part in giving in to whatever Muslims ask for or say. They and our politicians are also the people who are helping to fuel the rise of right wing parties in Europe. I believe Islam will also fall as well but I hope it does not come to wide scale violence to achieve it. Can you please provide info on Baha’u’llah and him doing something about it.

Thank you for your thoughts.
They form a basis for good further discussion here. I am a little short for time.

Bless you for your prayers. As I say, I can hear (or read) your heart is pure and the intent is loving so your prayers mean a lot

In terms of what Baha’u’llah is doing about the problems of the world, this video (posted above also) is a good source:

youtu.be/vqg-qcadglU

God bless you arte

.

 

[worldcitizen]

Muhammad is none of those things and the Quran only taught self defense to stop genocide if one knows Islamic history. But people don’t check or verify the accuracy of these false accusations. Sad.

Ignorance is our true enemy and barrier to peace. To have peace we need to eliminate all forms of prejudice.

 

[Servant19]

Muhammad is none of those things and the Quran only taught self defense to stop genocide if one knows Islamic history. But people don’t check or verify the accuracy of these false accusations. Sad.

Ignorance is our true enemy and barrier to peace. To have peace we need to eliminate all forms of prejudice.

Very much true dear worldcitizen…

.

 

[arte]

Hi Arte,

Firstly, my object is NOT to try and convert anyone to any faith or religion especially Islam even though I’m speaking about it in depth.

I’m interested in PEACE between all people. I speak to all people from all faiths and none, in the quest to dispel misunderstandings about each other that are obstacles to world peace.

We all want World peace but do Muslims want World peace or do they want to subdue the whole World under Islam and Sharia Law? Muslims have been brain washed by Islam. The only question is; how much have they been brainwashed? There have been 27,588 deadly Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11. To put this into perspective, there have been 2 deadly Christian terrorist attacks over the same period. Can you see the difference? Suicide bombings by Muslims have become almost a daily occurrence some where in the World. Don’t you think Israel has tried to get peace with the Palestinians and other Muslims? If the people living in Gaza and the West Bank were any other religion or all atheists, there would be peace and Palestine would be thriving. Wherever there are Muslims, there is violence and lots of problems. The US, UK, Spain, France, Russia, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, China, Thailand, Philippines, Nigeria, Kenya, Bali, Australia, India………I won’t go to Muslim countries but you can understand where I am coming from or can you?

Sura 9:29 of the Quran is not an isolated verse but is to be understood in the context of efforts by the Quraysh and Meccans to exterminate and destroy completely the Muslim community because it taught to worship one God not the 360 idols. So they were perpetrating GENOCIDE considered a war crime today.

After 13 years of attacks on Muhammad, in Medina Muhammad revealed 9:29 but he also revealed 2:190 ‘not to attack unless attacked first’.

Besides polytheists, Quran 9.29 includes Jews and Christians. Was Mohamed attacked by the Banu Qurayza Jews and Christians during these 13 years? As for the Banu Qurayza Jews attacking Mohamed, scholars are very divided on that point. Please see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza There must be other sources as well and sources that would question your 13 years of attack on Mohamed.

Has Quran 9.29 been confined to the 7th century and therefore no longer extant just like the Jews fighting the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites?

Feeling subdued was very important in those times because there were no jails or prisons or handcuffs or police or courts so one had to fully subdue an enemy psychologically to stop their aggression. So a mass murderer and serial rapist all they had to do was pay a tax. No jail time. But they had to be subdued fully or they posed a threat to innocent women and children.

You paint a lovely rosy picture. So mass murders and rapists were allowed to go on living and just had to pay a tax. I find that very unlikely and the tax is aimed at “People of the Book” even if they have done nothing at all. Feeling subdued is still in the verse and without doubt was used by Muslims in the past and now. It would also be used in the future if Muslims ever got the upper hand in Europe etc. As far as the polytheists go; it’s either convert to Islam or die.

As far as Christ abhorring any form of violence. That is mostly correct except in the instance of the money changers in the Temple where He flew into a rage and overthrew tables.
Jesus had a sense of justice also. If His community would have been attacked by bloodthirsty savages intent on genocide do you think He would have just stood by and allowed every innocent man, women and child to be massacred?? I don’t think so from His reaction in the Temple and the money changes.
mt.21.12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

The last person that mentioned Jesus’ reaction to the money lenders in the temple to me was an Islamic extremist. He also said that Mohamed never hurt anyone and only fought in self defence. He said the same as you about the Quran and very similar to the following “some Muslims turned away from the Quran’s defensive stance. Hadiths which contradict the Quran’s stance on defensive war are agression committed in breach of the Quran”.

Would Jesus sit back and allow terrorists to destroy civilisation? In Muhammad’s place what would Jesus have done?

The only people trying to destroy civilisation are Muslims. Just turn on your TV and you will see that is true. Jesus was never in the same place (position) as Mohamed for a number of very important reasons. To understand these very important reasons, compare Jesus to Mohamed. I’ve done it many times for Muslims and occasionally for non Muslims in debates.

 

[arte]

Hi worldcitizen,
I just closed down my computer and realised I had made a terrible error in my reply to you.

My post:
The last person that mentioned Jesus’ reaction to the money lenders in the temple to me **was an Islamic extremist. ** He also said that Mohamed never hurt anyone and only fought in self defence. He said the same as you about the Quran and very similar to the following “some Muslims turned away from the Quran’s defensive stance. Hadiths which contradict the Quran’s stance on defensive war are agression committed in breach of the Quran”.

I did not intend to accuse you of being an Islamic extremist but my paragraph above certainly looks that way. I meant to add: **“You can see from the above that it is very difficult for non Muslims to differentiate between an extremist Muslim and a moderate Muslim”. **

If you are a Muslim; you are a moderate Muslim because of this statement: “Firstly, my object is NOT to try and convert anyone to any faith or religion especially Islam even though I’m speaking about it in depth. I’m interested in PEACE between all people. I speak to all people from all faiths and none, in the quest to dispel misunderstandings about each other that are obstacles to world peace”.

I hope this clears up the situation.

We all want peace especially for Muslim children who are the completely innocent victims of Islamic violence and retaliation against this violence. I feel desperately sorry for them and their plight does cause me to shed a tear and become very angry against the religion of Islam because it is the root cause of their suffering. If you don’t name the problem, you will never be able to fix the problem. That is something our political leaders in the West need to do.

 

[Techno2000]

Can you please provide info on Baha’u’llah and him doing something about it.

Baha’u’llah… is all about Islam…

XXXII: That which thou hast heard concerning…

That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-32.html****

 

[worldcitizen]

Hi Arte,

I’m very happy to talk with you.

All passages in the Quran were only for fighting against oppression never offensively so no Muslims today can use them to attack any country.

Persecution of the Muslims by the Meccans

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans

The Makkans responded to this new creed with rejection. He and his companions were bitterly persecuted in Makkah for the first 13 years of his mission.

islamcentre.info/#!prophet-muhammad/yyid8

The killings committed by the terrorists are politically motivated using religion as a cover for financial and human resources. Terrorism, I assure you, has nothing whatsoever to do with the Quran or Muhammad just like the Crusades had nothing to do with the Bible or Christ.

But unfortunately there is religious prejudice and what an opportune time to throw the baby out with the bath water for all those who’ve long hated Islam using the press!!

The western press has been handed an opportunity by the terrorists to condemn Islam, Muhammad and the Quran and Muslims and a license to defame, slander and publish as much hate as they want about Islam because the terrorists have given them that mandate. But to blame a whole religion and its Prophet and Holy Book because of a few evil terrorists is very unjust. Like saying all Americans are evil if there’s a mass school killing or the Constitution is evil because all those children were gunned down. We don’t blame the whole USA when a mass murder occurs but we blame all Islam and Muhamnad and the Quran when they commit a mass murder. See my point?? The disparity is due to prejudice.

Do 1.6 billion Muslims agree? Karen Armstrong a former Catholic nun whichever way one views her is a brilliant writer and author and says about violence in Islam.

“Terrorism has nothing to do with Muhammad, any more than the Crusades had anything to do with Jesus.

Humanity is imperfect starting with me of course and if we look at them from the standpoint of their faults thern peace is impossible but if we look at and see the good in others which God sees then we can be in harmony.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Was Christ really Crucified??

Crucifixion of Jesus

These passages confirm that in reality Christ was NOT crucified only His body was. But those who thought they had crucified the reality of Christ, that His memory would disappear from the face of the earth were told that Christ was not in reality crucified.

The bible distinguishes between killing of the body and spiritual death.

Bible on killing

mt.10.28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Quran on Christ’s Crucifixion

4:57

4:157 “We have killed the Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God!”
They did not kill Him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they had. Those who dispute are in doubt of him, they have no knowledge except to follow conjecture; they did not kill him for a certainty.

Christ, the SPIRIT of God was never crucified or killed. Think about it.

Do you believe Jesus was crucified whether body or spirit for our sins? Some comments somewhat went against The Apostles Creed…

“I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.”

 

[JimmyDFG]

Muhammad is none of those things and the Quran only taught self defense to stop genocide if one knows Islamic history. But people don’t check or verify the accuracy of these false accusations. Sad.

Ignorance is our true enemy and barrier to peace. To have peace we need to eliminate all forms of prejudice.

Muslims profession of faith “shahada”- " There is no god but God. muhammad is the messenger of God "
quran 3:110 “You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.”

Does this mean muslim are the best people?

quran 98:5" And they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. And that is the correct religion."

Does this mean islam is the " correct religion"?

quran 98:6 “Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.”

quran 8 “They ask you, [O muhammad], about the bounties [of war]. Say, “The [decision concerning] bounties is for allah and the messenger.” So fear allah and amend that which is between you and obey allah and His messenger, if you should be believers.”

quran 8:39 “And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for allah . And if they cease - then indeed, allah is Seeing of what they do.”

Will continue…

 

[JimmyDFG]

quran 8:39 “And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for allah . And if they cease - then indeed, allah is Seeing of what they do.”

The division of the world in islam
Dar al-Islam,
or house/abode of Submission, is also known and referred to as Dar al-Salam, or house/abode of Peace. The term appears in the quran in 10.25 and 6.127 as a name of Paradise

Dar al-Harab
“house of war”; also referred to as Dar al-Garb “house of the West” in later Ottoman sources; a person from “Dar al-Harab” is a “harabi” . Dar al-Harab is a term classically referring to those countries where the muslim law is not in force, in the matter of worship and the protection of the faithful and dhimmis. It is unclean by definition, and will not become clean until annexed to the House of Peace. Its denizens are either to be converted, killed or, if people of the book, tolerated as long as they pay the jizya.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam

 

[worldcitizen]

Dear Jimmy,

Yes, Jesus was definitely crucified was my meaning and the Quran also agrees with that although it says it indirectly in that the reality of Christ was not crucified only His body.

Islam was the First Nation state to be established in that area so in that respect it was the best because it had laws and a constitution whereas previously the tribes were disunited and wanderers.

Islam was the correct religion with regards to the 360 idols which was the religion being practiced before Islam came. Muhammad came to that area to establish belief in one God amongst the idol worshippers.

Muhammad always praised those who acted justly and fairly especially the Christians. He praised the Christians and so did other Arabs. This is some of what He says about Christians…

"All of the Arab chiefs, all of the leading Muslims, and all the People of the Vocation, from around the world sent me letters expressing the fondness of Christians towards my cause,

They were different in their faithful devotion from the Jews, the Qurayshites, and the other polytheists. They demonstrated no desire for worldly gain…

The Christians, however, behaved in the very opposite way. They respected my alliance. They recognized my rights. They fulfilled the promises that they had made during our meeting. (Covenant of Muhammad with the Christians of Najran)