Sublime morality of marriage with a young girl

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro_universal:

I would say so. Calling yourself “Muslim killer” and championing two of the most violent monarchs known to mankind makes you no better than the white supremacists who constantly malign Jews.

I’m rather proud of Isabella and Ferdinand, and I don’t care about your inferences.

pro_universal:

You are also apparently incapable of carrying on a dicussion without repeating the same claims as if they are new.

Hmmm… I note you copy-pasted from Islamist sites yourself and without referencing. Did you provide original research or did you take from Islamist sites.

I must say that for a supposed Catholic you are might emotional about the discussion and I’m afraid the veracity of your output is much in question.

pro_universal:

In reply to your post on Aisha, all I can say is: Reread my post where I detail points 1 and 2.

Debunked already. If you have any rebuttals to what my response then please provide and we shall see. Obstinately claiming there is disagreement when there is none is both intellectually suspect on your part.

pro_universal:

1. There is scholarly disagreement as to the age of Ayesha. Ibn Hisham is not a modern Islamist; he’s one of the earliest writers. Gibril Haddad is not the final word on all hadiths.

That’s why Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, is a respected commentator of the hadiths. His book Fateh al-Bari is the most authoritative commentary of Bukhari’s hadiths.

As for Gibril Haddad not being the final word of all hadiths. I just note he called your source material lies and deceptions. It is up to prove him wrong. The fact that you can’t means your case has well and truly been debunked.

Sorry the truth hurts but as long as you don’t rebut Gibril Haddad and merely issue ad hominems, it is clear you have nothing substantive to say.

pro_universal:

1. Even then, you failed to provide any evidence that Aisha was pre-pubescent at the time of the consummation (which is different from the time of the betrothal, a fact you are confusing.)

Silly Mr pro_universal.

According to respected Muslim scholars Aisha had not attained puberty at the age of 14.

She was betrothed at 6. Now, it stands to reason she was still below the age of puberty at 6, don’t you agree?

pro_universal:

So, the best possible claim you can make is that there’s no evidence to suggest that you are right, but not enough evidence to prove beyond any doubt that you are wrong. That’s not much.

See above.

I have evidence from Muslim scholars that Aisha was only permitted to play with dolls.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

See this bit: The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.

What does that mean?

a. I also have evidence from Tabari that Muhammad had sex with her IN HER HOUSE when she was 9.

b. Then I have evidence from Imam Muslim that Muhammad took her back TO HIS HOUSE and her dolls were with her.

This means that she was pre-pubescent during a. because she still had dolls during b.

Then we have this little clincher:

c. Aisha was still playing with dolls when she was 14 years old.

Thus, we know that Aisha had not attained puberty when she was 14 years old.

But hey, Muhammad had sex with her when she was 9.

I’ll let you try to squirm out of this one, bud. It’s plain as day Muhammad had sex with a girl who had not attained puberty.

pro_universal:

If anything, the repeated propaganda pieces and use of “muslim killer” as a moniker are demonstrating that you come from and admire a defective culture of violence. Not that good if you want to criticize Muslims, imho.

I don’t really care about your opinion, dear boy. I will let the readers of this forum decide if I am good at analyzing Islam.

And, may I say, for a supposed Catholic you’re mighty emotional about Islam.

Chau
Matamoro and loving it

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Let’s remember our charity.

Stubborn comments and slight at one’s person do nothing to further the discussion.

In fact, this thread is proof that such things easily move the thread off topic.

Thanks for everyone’s participation!

Rachel

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Mr. inJESUS,

I believe I did answer those questions either in this or other thread but probably you did not pay attention to it.

Anyways you asked:

So if allah did not keep his promise :
was allah not omnipotent?
was allah a discrimminator?

First, I need to know where in your scriptures, Allah told you that He will preserve your Bible?
If He did preserve His Bible where is it? and which version out of the thousands of so-called ancient and *most ancient * manuscripts, is Promised Word of your God? Because as we know NO TWO of THEM are identical. (I am not talking about English versions). I am talking about the so-called Hebrew/Greek versions from where **more corrupted translations ** were made with **pick and choose ** method to accomodate your own churches pre-conceived dogmas/concepts/views.

Once you show me and prove it to me that Version X out of your various different Bibles, is the true Word of your Allah, and then show me that in it He did promise you to preserve it then I can answer the rest of your questions whether: was allah not omnipotent? and was allah a discrimminator?

PS: Keep in mind that according Catholic Catechism, even **Catholic Bible ** does not contain full deposit of Catholic faith, let alone other Protestant Bibles which are considered corrupted/based on pick-and-choose method in Papacy’s view.

.

absolutly irrelevant…i can show you where in the bible God and Jesus talked about it…but am interested in quran where allah says He will preserve the Bible…so when allah promises this yet we don’t have the Bible, what does it mean?

you are still talking and mixing history…the translations are absolutely no problem coz their are many ways of translations : textual, word for word, ecc…so just do not worry coz if something is wrong it should have been us to question them…

So allah said he preserves his words, and mohammad HIMSELF attested to the Bible in his hands and early muslim scholars THEMSELVES believed it as well…and we ALL know we have the same Bible that even predates mohammad…so to say that we don’t have God’s word or that half of it is corrupt is to call allah a liar or not omnipotent.

PS: again, the Dead Sea Scrolls exposed mohammad’s lies.

 

[Eden]

The flip side to this coin is the fact that the Truth of Islam is still out there and people are finding it.

If Islam is True, why is it the Muslim countries that suppress Christianity and it’s the West that allows freedom of religion? Shouldn’t Truth be able to stand on its own against the threats of false religions without needing to implement laws to keep other belief systems underground?

 

[inJESUS]

Eden:

Engaged at the age of seven? Had adult relations at the age of 9 or 10? My goodness.

oh not only this, read :

1. O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- **this only for thee, and not for the Believers ** (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Isn’t allah great?

No wonder Aisha said:

Narrated Aisha:
I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah’s Apostle and I used to say, “Can a lady give herself (to a man)?” But when Allah revealed: “You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).” (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311)

:bounce:

 

[freedomm]

**With reference to questions about marriageable age, minor age marriages are justified quoting the precedent of A’isha marrying Prophet at the age of nine. **

In his book, **Tahqiq Umar A’isha asSiddiqah (R.A) ** (Truth about the age of A’isha the Truthful), Karachi: Mashkur Academy], Hakim Niyaz Ahmad, a scholar from Pakistan has examined all the report in almost all collections of Hadith and has come to the conclusion that A’isha married the Prophet when she was 19 years old. His main findings are as follows.

1. The Hadith report about A’isha’s marriage at the age of nine is not reliable because

a.All Hadith collections report this Hadith on the solitary authority of Hisham b. Urwa.
b.Hisham is generally accepted as a reliable person, but in his old age he had lost this prestige among the scholars in Medina. They do not accept his Hadith narrated in this period. Hisham narrated this story in around 145 AH when he was 84 years old. A’isha’s marriage took place in 2 AH, more than 140 years ago. It was the time when most of those who could verify the facts of his narration had died.
c.A’isha’s marriage was not an ordinary event that only one person would narrate it.

1. Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Sa’d, and other historical accounts of the life of the Prophet never fail to mention A’isha among the first group of people who embraced Islam. If A’isha were nine years old in 2 AH/624 AC she would be five years old in 610 AC, when Muhammad announced his Prohethood. It is rather more reasonable to assume that she was adult at that time, which means that she was certainly more than nine years old in the year she migrated to Medina.
2. Mishkat al-Masabih, Al-Bidayah wanNihayah, Siyar A’lam, and al-Isti’aab, among the more well known sources clearly mention that A’isha was 10 years younger than her sister Asma.
3. Most sources, particularly Abu Na’im al-Isfahani suggests that Asma was 27 years old at the time of migration. It means A’isha was at least 17 years old at that time. The author disagrees with Isfahani, and calls it a miscalculation. This calculation is based on the assumption that Asma is usually reported to have died at the age of 100 years in 73 AH. Calculating backward and subtracting the period of 13 years of Meccan (100-73-13) she would be 14 years when she accepted Islam. That would mean that A’isha was only four years old when she embraced Islam. It is so unreasonable. Both Aisha and Asma must be old enough to qualify for accepting Islam. Therefore, we have to believe either that Asma was older than 100 years at the time of her death, or that there was not difference in their ages. This is plausible because they were born of different mothers.
4. Asma gave birth to Abdullah b. Zubayr who was the first child born among Muslims at the time of Hijra. The event was celebrated with much happiness. The Prophet suggested A’isha to take the Kunya of Umm Abdullah (Abdullah’s mother). It would be odd for a minor girl to have that Kunya. It suggests that she was old enough to have that Kunya.
5. When the Prophet proposed, A’isha was already engaged to Jubayr b. Mut’am, whose father was the leader of the Quraysh. Jubayr’s family was not happy when A’isha’s family embraced Islam. Both families found it difficult to terminate that engagement. A’isha’s father Abu Bakr had to negotiate for divorce. He requested Jubayr’s family to conclude the marriage contract and take A’isha to Jubayr’s home, as was the custom. Abu Bakr knew that Jubayr’s family would not agree to the contract and that then he could negotiate for divorce or disengagement. It was after her divorce that she could be engaged to the Prophet. The author argues that the fact Abu Bakr could negotiate for the conclusion of the contract or divorce is an evidence that A’isha was adult and of marriageable age.
6. The author concludes that Aisha was 19 years old at the time of marriage. There is a textual error 19 (tis’at ashar) was misread as nine (tis’ah). He gives several examples of such errors in the reporting in Hadith books.

1. 
   Summary: M. Khalid Masud

 

[mjdonnelly]

still being a pedophile, and a criminal, no matter who it was

 

[freedomm]

mjdonnelly:

still being a pedophile, and a criminal, no matter who it was

And “God” allowed to let die mercilessly His ONE and ONLY beloved Begotten Son on the cross in an almost naked state and did not accept his last moment prayers but even let criminals and sinners kick and spit on Him??

What kind of a Loving “God” was that anyway, who did all this with His Most Beloved Son??

If this is what He did with His Most Beloved Son, who was sinless, then what will happen to Christian sinners, on the Day of Judgement?

 

[mjdonnelly]

freedomm:

And “God” allowed to let die mercilessly His ONE and ONLY beloved Begotten Son on the cross in an almost naked state and did not accept his last moment prayers but even let criminals and sinners kick and spit on Him??

What kind of a Loving “God” was that anyway, who did all this with His Most Beloved Son??

If this is what He did with His Most Beloved Son, who was sinless, then what will happen to Christian sinners, on the Day of Judgement?

There are several threads around as to why Jesus died on the cross for us, you SHOULD be able to figure out how to do a search for one of them. Or try one of the tracts from the main page.

 

[inJESUS]

freedomm:

And “God” allowed to let die mercilessly His ONE and ONLY beloved Begotten Son on the cross in an almost naked state and did not accept his last moment prayers but even let criminals and sinners kick and spit on Him??

What kind of a Loving “God” was that anyway, who did all this with His Most Beloved Son??

If this is what He did with His Most Beloved Son, who was sinless, then what will happen to Christian sinners, on the Day of Judgement?

hopeless aren’t you? putting Jesus’ death on the level of mohammad’s lust? what does this have to do with mohammad having a dozen wife and slaves as “privileges” from his deity? God gives women as privilege right? i wonder what satan can give better…a deity/person that rewards with “women” has a well known adjective.

Stick to the point if you dont want to be ignored again.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Let me get this straight, Muhammad married a six or seven year old girl and had relations with her when she was nine? How old did people live to in those days? Was the girl able to bear children at nine?

Now the Talmud, which no christian views as authoritive states,

It was taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai stated: A proselyte who is under the age of three years and one day is permitted to marry a priest,13 for it is said, But all the women children that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves,14 and Phinehas15 surely was with them. And the Rabbis?16 — [These were kept alive] as bondmen and bondwomen.17 If so,18 a proselyte whose age is three years and one day19 should also be permitted! — [The prohibition is to be explained] in accordance with R. Huna. For R. Huna pointed out a contradiction: It is written, Kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him,20 but if she hath not known, save her alive; from this it may be inferred that children are to be kept alive whether they have known or have not known [a man]; and, on the other hand, it is also written, But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves,14 but do not spare them if they have known. Consequently21 it must be said that Scripture speaks of one who is fit22 for cohabitation.23

It was also taught likewise: And every woman that hath known man;20 Scripture speaks of one who is fit23 for cohabitation. You say, ‘Of one who is fit for cohabitation’; perhaps it is not so but of one who had actual intercourse? — As Scripture stated, But all women children, that have not known man by lying with him,24 it must be concluded that Scripture speaks of one who is fit for cohabitation.23

...   [edited for space]

R. Jacob b. Idi stated in the name of R. Joshua b. Levi: The halachah is in agreement with R. Simeon b. Yohai.37 Said R. Zera to R. Jacob b. Idi: Did you hear this37 explicitly or did you learn it by a deduction? What [could be the] deduction? — As R. Joshua b. Levi related: There was a certain town in the Land of Israel the legitimacy of whose inhabitants was disputed, and Rabbi sent R. Romanos who conducted an enquiry and found in it the daughter of a proselyte who was under the age of three years and one day,38 and Rabbi declared her eligible to live with a priest.39 The other40 replied:41 I heard it explicitly. And what [matters it] if it42 was learned by deduction?43 — It is possible that there44 it was different; since the marriage had already taken place he sanctioned it; for, indeed, both Rab and R. Johanan stated: A priest may not marry one who is adolescent or ‘wounded’, but if already married, he may continue to live with her. How now! There it is quite correct [to sanction the marriage since in any case] she would ultimately become adolescent while she45 will be with him,46 and she would also ultimately become a be’ulah while with him;46 but here, would she ultimately become a harlot47 while with him?48 R. Safra taught [that he40 arrived at it]42 by deduction, and, having raised the difficulty,49 answered it in the same way.50
**
A certain priest married a proselyte who was under the age of three years and one day.** Said R. Nahman b. Isaac to him: What [do you mean by] this?51 — The other replied: Because R. Jacob b. Idi stated in the name of R. Joshua b. Levi that the halachah is in agreement with R. Simeon b. Yohai.52 ‘Go’, the first said, ‘and arrange for her release, or else I will pull R. Jacob b. Idi out of your ear’.53 ( Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Yebamoth
Folio 60b)

come-and-hear.com/yebamoth/yebamoth_60.html

These are interpretations read INTO the scriptures hundreds of years, if not thousands of years after the events in scripture. No where in the scriptures does it say, men had relations with three year olds, nor with children who were not old enough to bear children. I asked a rabbi friend, about this passage a while back and he understood it to be adoption of very young children, that may someday led to marriage at the proper age of 12 or 13 in that era of history.

Have I missed anything in this discussion?

 

[inJESUS]

yes you missed something…some muslims feel ashamed of this marriage and try to say Aisha was older than 9…even 19…a 19 with dolls? sure.

Whether it was ok at that time or not is not the issue…He is supposed to be the last prophet with the last teachings and the quran says he is the “ideal” example of morality…is pedophilia included? didn’t allah know that this is not a perfect example to humanity? can you just imagine what on earth was on his mind when he, a 53 sleeps with a 9 year old girl? just how could he!

there is another hadith saying mohammad lusted aftera 3 year old girl saying he will marry her when she gets older…that is, she is 10, he’d be over 60…yakk

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

read for yourself

come-and-hear.com/niddah/niddah_44.html
come-and-hear.com/niddah/niddah_45.html

Numbers 31:35-40 (New International Version)

and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

6 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep, of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;

36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;

30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;

16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.

Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version)

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Where in those texts do you see sex with children?

 

[jcaz]

I did not read all 101 posts, nor do I plan on it.

What I did see is this Rodrigo character playing his usual part trying to find some dumb Muslims, thus making him and his beliefs look victorious.

Really, it is great when you can get a Muslim to be “ashamed” of the truth, thus they try to run from it, thus digging a hole for themselves.

BOTTOM LINE

'Aaesah, may Allaah have mercy upon her, was 6 when she was married and was nine when the marriage was consumated. PERIOD. If any Muslim tries to argue these dates in a pathetic effort of trying to debate 'Aaesha’s young marriage, then their argument is based on nothing except their own ignorances and desires.

She was 9 when the marraige was consumated. PERIOD. And there is NO problem with that. This has been discussed before, AT LENGTH, on many other threads, and I will, as such, not get into it again.

It is an equally pathetic argument to suggest that one’s playing with dolls implies that have not reached puberty, as if that were the case, there must be tens of thousands of american women who have not attained puberty!

Anyway, because i’ve seen enough of this Bivar, he will continue and post these such things, perhaps hoping we will waste our time in replying to him. But i cannot.

Here’s a very detailed link responding to any of his claims:
“The Young Marriage of 'Aaesha”

 

[inJESUS]

i’m not Rodrigo, but i guess it is this same point you confirmed , that Aisha was 9 years when the prophet (53) slept with her, that raises questions of perversion and pedophilia…some muslim see how shameful it is so they try to cover it up…others, like yourself, think it is perfectly normal that a man, a “prophet” of 53 years, finds sexual satisfaction with a 9 years old girl…even if you claim she got her period (hence mature?), it is the idea that a full grown man can look at a 9 years old with the eyes of a “man” and not a grandfather…and this “man” is considered the best example of “morals”.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Cyber Knight:

First of all, pls stop tu quoque. Tired to see you always comparing Bible and OT for the Quran. We are talking about a 53 year old men, marrying a 9 year old girl, thats still playing with her doll when the marriage happened!

Just answer.** Is it OK to marry a 9 year old girl? **

So much for Yes or No answers. Justice6000, are you a politician by any chance???

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Its a pedophila. Simple. Why need arguing and presenting pages of excuse for us to believe it was normal.

Lets make it simple, for parents here, if you have 9 year old daughter, are you willing to marry your child to a 53 year old man? Whats your conscience say? How does it feel to see that?

 

[Duchofb]

Doesn’t the Bible say to abide by the laws of man? I’m sure I read that somewhere. I don’t think it is against the law in every country in the world to have sex with a child no matter how reprehensible we feel that it is. Therefore not all religions feel the same way about men marrying children. Also, wasn’t it customary for kings and nobility of ancient times to betroth children to marriage contracts at birth and even marry children into an alliance with another more powerful House to benefit their country or families? Weren’t these marriages performed by clergy of all faiths?

Don’t get me wrong. I despise pedophilia and all the damage and pain it inflicts on the body and soul of the victims. I’m also not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to gain knowledge.

 

[StMarkEofE]

inJESUS:

i’m not Rodrigo, but i guess it is this same point you confirmed , that Aisha was 9 years when the prophet (53) slept with her, that raises questions of perversion and pedophilia…some muslim see how shameful it is so they try to cover it up…others, like yourself, think it is perfectly normal that a man, a “prophet” of 53 years, finds sexual satisfaction with a 9 years old girl…even if you claim she got her period (hence mature?), it is the idea that a full grown man can look at a 9 years old with the eyes of a “man” and not a grandfather…and this “man” is considered the best example of “morals”.

A 53 year old man and a 9 year old little girl? I would have loved to heard the talk at the dinner table. Must have had a lot in common.

 

[Cyber_Knight]

StMarkEofE, justice2006, i mean freedomm, will soon come up with OT verses. So just wait his coming. (or worse, the taqiyan guy lol)