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Justice2006
Guest
And Mr. Rodrigo is a gift to you (Catholics)?
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pro_universal
Guest
This thread is about the morality of the prophet that muslims accept. There are claims above that blast the morality of the entire Islamic society based on this or that event. I think the comparison to Christianity is perfectly valid to show that immoral acts by some followers or immoral social conditions don’t make the core teaching of a religion immoral.
As for Spain itself, I was responding specifically to Rodrigo’s hate speech. I think hate speech (ie, doing a thing like naming yourself “Muslim killer”) should be responded to wherever it appears.
Eden, will you join me in condemning the use of monikers like “Muslim killer” in a discussion with muslims?
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Booklover
Guest
If you can’t see the difference between Jack Chick and FFI, you’re too far gone already on the way to becoming a dhimmi!
Really, what about The DaVinci Code? It’s always open season on the Catholic Church, but you can’t see that!
When people act irrationally, others have a right to sit up and take notice, unless you consider that killing and burning are legitimate protest against those cartoons? If people are criticizing Islam, it’s Muslims’ actions that have caused the criticism. Can’t you see that?
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Eden
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The thread was started to discuss the morality of the prophet Muhammed. Discussing the morality of Jesus Christ Himself would be the correlary discussion here, not the history of Christianity in Spain. Whether the topic of Spain came up because Rodrigo wrote mata moro in Spanish or not, it has become a diversion from the true topic.
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Eden
Guest
I agree that using the title “Muslim killers” is not necessary here and is also a distraction. As far as I know, Rodrigo is not actually a Muslim killer so I won’t go so far as to condemn him.
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pro_universal
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Well, if you’re using the term “dhimmi” like jihadwatch uses it, I’m afraid you’ve already bought into the chickesque propaganda on those sites. “dhimma” is a real arabic word that means “protected”, in the sense of a citizen of a country’s protection from his government. I am a dhimma of the US government, I have no problem with that. The distortion of the word is a jihadwatch invention, not rooted in facts…just like…
I’m glad you mentioned it. Since we’re bothering people by getting too far from the narrow confines of the opening line, I won’t get started with this, but yes, I realize how that piece of historical garbage damages the Church. That’s exactly the kind of fabrication I refuse to participate in against muslims.
Sure I can see that. But we have a duty to look at what the actual teachings of the religion are, and what most muslims actually believe, before we take the actions of the few and make the whole muslim faith guilty of those acts. Some christians do things that defame christianity also…I expect that when this happens, people will look at what our Church teaches and what most christians believe, rather than criticizing our institutions based on CNN reports. (I think the parallel to the molestation scandal is clear here.)
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pro_universal
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Respectful behavior has value in this discussion and is on point. If someone calls himself “jew killer”, I’m going to condemn the name even if I’m sure he’s never killed a Jew.
It’s uncivilized and just plain rude to use names that invoke mass slaughter, especially on a forum for the message of Jesus.
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Booklover
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Just because he’s not Catholic does not mean that he knows nothing about the church! He’s a much better apologist than I am, and he loves FFI and answering-Islam as well, two more points in his favor!
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Eden
Guest
Fair enough. Yes, I agree. But Rodrigo has a legitmate concern here about the morality of consummating a marriage to a 9 year old.
Going back to the original topic, I had never read these verses about Aisha before. It’s very disturbing. Did you not read the passages which describe a 9 year old girl with her dolls and her toy horse with wings? Then she was sitting on her swing when adults came and led her to the prophet Muhammed sitting on a bed. Her mother made her sit on the man’s lap and then all of the “men and women” left the room. What kind of adult marriage is consummated by the wife being coaxed onto her husband’s lap by the mother?
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pro_universal
Guest
Yes, and I replied…there’s no good evidence to believe that something was amiss. The marriage wasn’t consummated with the mother there, and Ayesha playing with her dolls is a separate hadith.
Marriage at the time of puberty with little concern for years was a norm all over the world in the past, and is a norm now in many places. It’s really not that disturbing.
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Eden
Guest
I should preface this by saying I know next to nothing about Islam and I agree it should be protected from misrepresentation. But after reading the passage that Rodrigo provided, I don’t see how you can read it any other way than that she was a child.
Would you expect an adult wife to be led by her “nurse” (i.e. nanny) and have her face washed because she was dirty from playing on her swing. (She was “being swung” on her swing. We can assume that the nurse was pushing her. Does an adult get pushed on a swing by their nurse?) Would an adult wife be brought in by her mother and “made” to sit on her husband’s lap by the mother? I understand your intent to protect Islam from misrepresentation but I’m reading directly from their writings not a propaganda site.
Is this just an inaccurate translation?
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Justice2006
Guest
Hi Eden,
What verses are you talking abot? Verses of the Koran? Where in the Koran you read verses about 9 year old marraige?
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pro_universal
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The modern European and American idea of “adult” did not exist before the 20th century, so I’m careful to not be too stuck on that. Would a young, recently sexually mature bride possibly be in this situation? Yes. I really don’t find that shocking…it’s still the case in much of Latin America to marry young, for example. It was the case here in the US in most states until recently.
As for the text itself, there are competing histories. Rodrigo quoted from one of thousands of different records of what people said about Muhammad and the early muslims. These records of sayings are called the hadiths. They are basically compilations of “so and so heard from so and so heard from so and so who was a friend of so and so the friend of the Prophet” sayings, so they are not binding as is the Koran to muslims.
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Eden
Guest
Would it be more correct to refer to them as “narrations”? And does the fact that I used the word “verses” nullify what I read?
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Justice2006
Guest
I would like to remind you something, in the words of *Abû Imân Abd ar-Rahmân Robert Squires *:
The flip side to this coin is the fact that the Truth of Islam is still out there and people are finding it.
Yes, Islam is spreading in spite of these hypocritical methods that Christians and others are using to stop it. From the “moon god” lies of Robert Morey to the almost daily distortions in the media, Islam is still spreading in the West.
Actually, the fact that those who make a career out of attacking Islam, such as Christian missionaries, have to resort to lies and distortions when they discuss Islam, is a good sign. Certainly, if they discussed Islam as it was meant to be understood, they would only be hurting their own cause.
When Islam is presented by non-Muslims in the West, usually matters of peripheral importance are addressed and criticised. The core beliefs of Islam, if discussed at all, are presented in a distorted manner. If Islam was just some ridiculous “Third World” religion with no appeal, they would not have to treat it this way.
As a matter of fact, a great deal of the anti-Islamic literature that fills Christian bookstores (and the Internet) is not designed to convert Muslims, but to turn Westerners off to Islam. The people who write these lies are just trying to poison the minds of people so that they won’t be receptive to the message of Islam when they hear it.
islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html ]
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Eden
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There is a difference between defending Islam from misrepresentation and being dishonest about what you have read. When you tell me that there are competing texts and this particular description may not be accurate, I am fine with that. I hope it is not accurate. It is very upsetting to read about this happening to a little girl. But if you want to tell me that what you read in the narration about Aisha is not disturbing and that you see no indication that she was not yet pubescent then that is simply disingenious.
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pro_universal
Guest
Well, you can pretend that modern American and European norms for the age of marriage are the only good ones, but I’m not willing to call virtually all of our ancestors immoral for engaging in the practice of marrying older men to younger women.
It is entirely believable that a still-young girl would have reached sexual maturity (happens all the time), and I’m not shocked by facing a society where sexual maturity rather than emotional maturity is the determining factor in assessing readiness for marriage.
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Eden
Guest
While I appreciate your deep faith and belief in Islam, I am only engaging in this thread out of intellectual curiosity. I do not have an interest in perpetuating any misrepresentations of Islam. But I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for our sins. There is no doubt in my mind about that. I have experienced His love and Truth in my spiritual life and I will never deny Him. I don’t need propaganda sites against Islam for my faith. I don’t need to concern myself with accusations that my Church uses propaganda to retain believers. I know Him and I desire to grow closer to Him every day.
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Eden
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Your ancestors were not prophets. You have equated Muhammed’s marriage with the common man. The reason that Rodrigo questioned the arrangement was because a prophet is expected to be morally and spiritually superior to us and our ancestors.
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Justice2006
Guest
The word “verses” (in Arabic: ayaat) is exclusively referred/used for the sentences of the Koran and not for the contents of any non-Koranic book of Islam or the Muslims.
Words of historian Flavius Josephus or **St. Augustine ** or interpretation of **any Pope ** or even any **Catholic Bible’s footnote ** words are **not the verses ** of the Bible.
The verses are not changeable (in the eyes of their followers) as they are considered the Words of God, whereas all other words of historians/narrations/explanations are subject to further interpretations/scrutiny/criticism based on various factors as such they are of secondary level.
An interpretation of a prosecutor or a defense lawyer is not the law itself.
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