Sublime morality of marriage with a young girl

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” Tarikh Tabari, vol. 4, p. 50

Thanks for that. This is a misreading of the hadith oft-repeated throughout the web.

This is what Shaykh Gibril Haddad has to say about this:

Al-Tabari nowhere reports that “Abu Bakr’s four children were all born in Jahiliyya” but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sad and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each, A’isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.
qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4604&CATE=1

It is not as your source says, ‘These four were born before Islam.’ Methinks it’s a partial quotation that distorts the meaning.

The literal translation is: ‘all these four of his children were born from his two wives that we named (mentioned?) in Jahiliyya.’ The grammatical construct makes it clear that the wives were named (i.e. married) in Jahiliyya, not that the children were born in Jahiliyya. This is clear when seen in the light of Tabari’s explicit statements that Aisha was nine years old when Muhammad consummated their marriage. There is no need to misinterpret his words with partial quotations.

‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old.’ Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters. al-Tabari vol.9 p.129-131.

‘My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.’ al-Tabari vol.9 p. 131.

‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and came the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to (sic – from) Mecca.’ al-Tabari vol.7 p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.

‘The Prophet married Aishah in Shawwal in the tenth year after the [beginning of his] prophethood, three years before Emigration. He consummated the marriage in Shawwal, eight months after Emigration. On the day he consummated the marriage with her she was nine years old.’ al-Tabari vol. 39, pp. 171-173

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro_universal:

Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 37, Number 494:
Narrated Aisha:
(wife of the Prophet) Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening.

Dear pro_universal, why do you bother bringing these hadiths that don’t tell us anything about Aisha’s age?

Are you interpreting the phrase ‘the age when I could remember things’ to mean ‘the age of puberty’? This is totally erroneous reasoning.

Aisha was born after her father embraced Islam. Thus, there was no time that she wasn’t a Muslim. The phrase above merely means that ‘as far as she could remember her parents were Muslims.’

pro_universal:

When reading the above, note that Aisha was not betrothed to Muhammaed until the second year of the hijra, and then there is the time lapse between betrothal and consummation. If she were born in the same year as Muhammad began preaching, that makes her something like 14 or 15 at the age of marriage. That’s even legal in the United States today.

This is totally erroneous. First, the hadith says nothing about puberty, just that as far as she could remember her parents were Muslims. So, why do you assume she was born the same year Muhammad began preaching? The hadith doesn’t say that.

Please bring more of these ‘hadiths’ of yours that aren’t explicit about Aisha’s age but require some convoluted erroneous reasoning and gross assumptions. I will be more than happy to examine them.

Hasta luego,
Cid.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro_universal:

Specifically on your signature line:

Yes, there are also mexican towns named after it. What the Spanish did during the reconquista was atrocious. If you think that is a shining example of Christianity, I urge you not to tell anyone about your beliefs, because it will damage our reputation.

There are many, many societies I’d rather hold up as an example of Christian living before the war-mongering Spanish of the late 15th and 16th centuries.

Spaniards are proud of the reconquista. History is nothing to be ashamed of. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones or did you think the Moors were all saints? Did you think the Muslims sweeping through the Byzantine empire, the Persian empire, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Spain, Eastern Europe and India were all saints?

Or did you think the Moors walked into Spain without shedding blood?

But that is beside the point of this thread. If you want to discuss the history of Muslim military conquests then kindly start another thread.

Chau,
Mata Moro

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro_universal:

The earliest biography (I am told by an arabic speaker, I do not read arabic so I have to rely on this citation) puts aisha at not less than 14 at the time of marriage based on her accepting Islam before Umar ibn al-Katthab. This is from Ibn Hisham, in Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah.

Looks like I missed this one so I will answer it now. The biography does not say Aisha was not less than 14 at the time of her marriage. It is merely another example of Islamist convoluted erroneous reasoning. The oft-repeated polemics is this:

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha’s (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol. 1, Pg. 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

The veracity of that information is in doubt. Shaykh Haddad disputes the contention that Ibn Hisham reported that Aisha accepted Islam ‘quite some time’ before Umar. Instead, Ibn Hisham merely lists her as among those who accepted Islam because of Abu Bakr, without reference to Umar’s conversion.

I think the Islamist is trying to claim that if Aisha was the 20th or 21st Muslim then it must have taken a long time before Umar’s conversion as he was the 41st Muslim.

Be that as it may, this does not prove that Aisha was older than 9 years when she had sex with Muhammad. It is traditionally held that Umar ibn al-Khattab accepted Islam after the revelation of Surah 20, which is believed to have been around the fifth year after Muhammad announced his prophethood in 610AD. The evidence is that Umar did not embrace Islam until the sixth year of the prophethood (Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (The Sealed Nectar), Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri, pg. 46). Thus there is no basis for the assumption that Umar’s conversion in the sixth year of the prophethood allows one to infer Aisha ‘accepted’ Islam in the first year of the prophethood. This is merely a non-sequitar.

Since Umar converted in 615AD and Aisha was born in 613 or 614AD, according to the traditional account, there is no conflict with the notion that she became a Muslim (i.e. at birth, automatically following her parents’ religion) before Umar.

I think the Islamist is drawing a long bow.

Hasta luego,
Cid

 

[Faith101]

LilyM:

Interesting … if Mohammed was such a good role model then why is his behaviour not only illegal today but completely repugnant to us too! Jesus at least in his behaviour (apart of course from his claims to be God incarnate) would be nearly if not actually irreproachable in any time and place.

What would they say about Mary being pregnant at 12?

 

[Faith101]

Eden:

Engaged at the age of seven? Had adult relations at the age of 9 or 10? My goodness.

She *was * an adult at that age. It wasnt a big deal, you guys want to put today’s standards on people who lived 1400 years ago. Just 100 hundred years ago, people were married at 14. The age of marriage is the age of puberty…this was how everyone did it, until only recently.

 

[Faith101]

Cyber Knight:

He was the so called ‘seal of the prophets’ why did he follow such tradition? Didnt he know the implication to the modern society? There will be no other prophet but him to correct his behaviour later UNLIKE he corrected Jesus’ message to the Christians.

the implication is: Women are ready to get married at the age where they can have children, i.e. puberty.

Might be a shocker, but people still do this.

 

[Faith101]

QUOTE=Loboto-Me]What a wonderful example and role model for a husband. When asked who he loved the most among humans, he answered Aisha.

The prophet was an honest and straighforward man. Before he became a messenger, he was known by all of Mecca as “the trustworthy and the truthful”. THe man who asked him that question, asked him directly…giving the prophet no choice but to answer or to lie.

So his poor other wives who’d been faithful and gave him children were basically told that they less lovable than a little girl named Aisha.

Just to clarify, those children were not his own. Only Khadiga, his first wife, had children from him. The other women were widowed with children from another marriage, which he treated as his own.

For background purposes: The prophet was married to Khadiga when he was 25 and she was 40, he lived with her, and only her, for 15 years…until she passed away. After her death, he married another woman, and then Aisha.

Hmmm, I’m sure happy my husband doesn’t follow rolemodels like that. Even us as parents would never tell the world that we love one child more than the others.

You have no idea how he treated them. In a time where men were dominant and women were seen as slaves, the prophet changed all of that. He used to fix his own shoes and help with the housework, he treated them kindly…and they loved him immensely. From reading about his life adn his treatment of his wives, no man, not even today, can do what he did.

When at one point, they were requesting too many things (and he didnt have money to provide for extravagance)…Allah gave them a choice, between the life of this world and all of its beauty or Allah and His messenger. And they chose Allah and His messenger, and remained with the Prophet, and remained dedicated to him even after his death.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Hola Faith101,
I don’t mean to bug you but now would be a good time for you to reveal a hadith that says Aisha had reached puberty when she was 9. Remember what you wrote?

Faith101:

The prophet, peace be upon him, was engaged to Aisha when she was 7 and the marriage was consumated when she was 9 or 10 years old. At that age, she had reached puberty, as is evident by many ahadith.

I think you’re assuming that she must have had puberty before sex. You’ll find your assertion totally unsupported by any historical sources.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[LilyM]

Faith101:

What would they say about Mary being pregnant at 12?

Firstly the only accounts I’ve heard of Mary’s age have said she was at least fifteen or so. Secondly, since she became pregnant she, unlike Aisha, was certainly over the age of puberty. Thirdly, we believe that Mary remained a virgin all her life, even after the birth of Christ, so she never had sex at 12 or any other age. Neither did Jesus himself, who remained a virgin all His life.

You’re barking up the wrong tree if you’re trying to recruit me away from Catholicism or into Islam my friend. In fact you’re probably barking up the wrong forum.

 

[MugenOne]

You know, today girls don’t even reach puberty by 9. If they do, it’s a rare exception due to high protein diet or something. Desert life is hard and it was much harder during the time of Mohammed. The nomads didn’t get to eat well like modern men. If that girls reached puberty by 9, it would take an act of Allah!

 

[Booklover]

pro_universal:

I mean the Church I go to, where we learn things like to love our enemies and make peace. At the Catholic university I went to, we learned to defend the faith with reason, not insults and garbage propaganda. You are clearly not hearing the same message.

It was world standard to marry young and die young in those days. Puberty, not a number, was the determining factor. If you want to argue that Ayesha was not of age to be married, why can’t you produce any evidence that she wasn’t ready? The fact that no one complained is pretty good evidence itself that there was nothing unusual about the marriage.

You need to reread my post. It was an analogy to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to make assumptions about the character of historical figures when you have zero evidence to support your conclusion.

Find me one source written by a person who had contact with Muhammad that says his marriages or behavior was bad. If you can’t do that, how can you continue to pretend that this is a fact?

If you don’t want to spread hatred, then stop typing and start learning. Look up the words “Mata moros” in a translator if you don’t believe me when I accuse rodrigo of being a hate monger.

I’m really surprised that you haven’t become a Muslim if you think so highly of Mohammed! Do you still believe that Jesus is God or just a prophet?

Excuse me, but you sound just like the Muslims when someone does not agree with Islam or Mohammed? Are you using taqqiya on us?

 

[pro_universal]

The veracity of that information is in doubt. Shaykh Haddad disputes the contention that Ibn Hisham reported that Aisha accepted Islam ‘quite some time’ before Umar. Instead, Ibn Hisham merely lists her as among those who accepted Islam because of Abu Bakr, without reference to Umar’s conversion.

Rodrigo, your entire argument was cribbed from the Gibril Haddad citation at Sunnipath. If you read the entire discussion, you will find that he is debating another Islamic scholar. Hence, there is dispute as to whether or not Ayesha was more like 15 or more like 9 when she was married. That right there at least creates doubt for your position.

The nail in the coffin is that you did not provide a single source which says that Ayesha was pre-pubescent at the time of consummation. All you did was repeat the dolls narrative. Again, there was no date associated with that, just you asserting that it was after consummation. Please provide documentation.

As it stands, all we have in the open is the following:

1. There is scholarly dispute as to Ayesha’s age. The older authorities (like Hisham) claim Ayesha was older at the time of marriage. More recent scholars (like Haddad) think she was nine.
2. Absolutely no scholars argue that she was no at puberty when the marriage was consummated.

Looks like your case is having some problems here. Like I said before, there is no substitute for turning to the primary sources and reading for yourself.

 

[pro_universal]

Spaniards are proud of the reconquista. History is nothing to be ashamed of. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones or did you think the Moors were all saints? Did you think the Muslims sweeping through the Byzantine empire, the Persian empire, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Spain, Eastern Europe and India were all saints?

There is no comparison between the two. Where the Muslims went, they fought wars and once the war was over, let the people be. Jews and Christians continued living in Muslim spain just fine under Muslim rule.

In contrast, after the Reconquista, the “christian” crown killed nearly every single Jew in Spain, tortured the rest into converting to Christianity, and killed/tortured virtually every muslim. They also embarked on the path towards racial slavery, laying the foundations for the laws of personal status based on being mulatto, octaroon, etc…

If you know anything about the history of that period in Spain at all, you know it’s disgusting. If you and the Spanish are proud of that, then I suggest you leave the Church, because I think it is more than safe to say that Jesus condemns racism and genocide.

 

[pro_universal]

I’m really surprised that you haven’t become a Muslim if you think so highly of Mohammed! Do you still believe that Jesus is God or just a prophet?

Excuse me, but you sound just like the Muslims when someone does not agree with Islam or Mohammed? Are you using taqqiya on us?

The only thing I am using is an honest reading of muslim sources. I’m sorry, but hatred for Islam is not the best way to learn about it. That’s where most of this garbage information is coming from about Muhammad’s character and the muslims’ beliefs.

I am a confirmed and practicing Catholic. I follow Jesus’s command to love even when it’s not popular to do so, and that includes defending other faiths from malicious lies.

 

[Booklover]

pro_universal:

The only thing I am using is an honest reading of muslim sources. I’m sorry, but hatred for Islam is not the best way to learn about it. That’s where most of this garbage information is coming from about Muhammad’s character and the muslims’ beliefs.

I am a confirmed and practicing Catholic. I follow Jesus’s command to love even when it’s not popular to do so, and that includes defending other faiths from malicious lies.

I don’t see you defending the faith you profess to believe in! All you do is criticize it! Aren’t you aware that Islam wants to destroy all other religions and set itself as the one and only?

By the way, I’m glad that the Spanish reconquered their country. My ancestors come from there!

Vickie

 

[pro_universal]

I don’t see you defending the faith you profess to believe in! All you do is criticize it! Aren’t you aware that Islam wants to destroy all other religions and set itself as the one and only?

By the way, I’m glad that the Spanish reconquered their country. My ancestors come from there!

I haven’t posted any criticism of the teachings of our Faith at all. I don’t think there need be any conflict or shame in admitting that people have pretended to be acting for the Church when they were in fact killing and stealing for personal gain.

You must admit, as proud as you are for the Spanish and your ancestors, that they did not employ the most righteous means of recreating a Christian state in Spain.

Catholic teaching has never supported this kind of activity, but becasue of those who pretended to act on Church authority in the past, now protestants and other anti-Catholic groups use that history to claim that the Catholic Church teaches error and cruelty. It is wrong when they do it to us, and I refuse to do it to other faiths.

 

[Booklover]

pro_universal:

I haven’t posted any criticism of the teachings of our Faith at all. I don’t think there need be any conflict or shame in admitting that people have pretended to be acting for the Church when they were in fact killing and stealing for personal gain.

You must admit, as proud as you are for the Spanish and your ancestors, that they did not employ the most righteous means of recreating a Christian state in Spain.

Catholic teaching has never supported this kind of activity, but becasue of those who pretended to act on Church authority in the past, now protestants and other anti-Catholic groups use that history to claim that the Catholic Church teaches error and cruelty. It is wrong when they do it to us, and I refuse to do it to other faiths.

Are you sure you’re not getting your propaganda from anti-Catholic sites?

Has it ever occurred to you to check anti-Islam sites to see why ex-Muslims there left Islam? They have a right to be heard too and what they say makes a heck of a lot more sense than all the Muslim propaganda I see here! But I think you’ve already been too indoctrinated by “political corretness” and determined to appease Islam in any way you can! You’re a gift to them!

Vickie

 

[pro_universal]

Has it ever occurred to you to check anti-Islam sites to see why ex-Muslims there left Islam? They have a right to be heard too and what they say makes a heck of a lot more sense than all the Muslim propaganda I see here!

Absolutely I have. I’ve read faithfreedom in nearly in its entirety, for example. And I see tons of parallels between “ex muslim” sites and “ex Catholic” sites. This is really a familiar formula to us. Remember that famous “ex priest” Jack Chick was parading around in his comics? Generally what you find on ex muslim sites is the same thing you find on ex-Catholic sites: people who are clearly bitter and angry for personal reasons, engaged in biased and manufactured attacks on their abandoned communities.

But I think you’ve already been too indoctrinated by “political corretness” and determined to appease Islam in any way you can! You’re a gift to them!

This is not true. I’d go so far as to say the politically correct position right now is to criticize Islam. My goal is to be honest about Islam and to recognize that they are humans who seek the truth, just like us.

 

[Eden]

The thread topic is specifically about the prophet Muhammed. To compare what people did “in the name of the Church” to the topic does not work here; although it would work on a thread about what people did “in the name of Islam”. I hope you see the distinction and we can move beyond the discussion of Spanish history.