P
ProVobis
Guest
I don’t believe it’s done with the authority of the Church where the Offertory prayers and responses are suppressed/skipped for some hymn that has nothing to do with the Mass.
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TheMc
Guest
I strongly agree with you on the primacy of the propers, but don’t forget that the prayers are still said, just quietly (if the Mass was celebrated in accordance with the rubrics, that is).
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ProVobis
Guest
Problem is that much of this music is personal and/or subjective. What makes one cry turns another completely off. And too much local culture doesn’t exactly make things universal. A Pole, for example, isn’t going to be enthusiastic about singing Anglican or Baptist songs or that he’s some sort of wretch, though he might be most vocal in his Polish community.
I agree with you on the Kyrie, the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Psalmus, etc. where these “hymns” are an integral part of the Mass, which is the reason for attending in the first place.
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ProVobis
Guest
The rubrics require/invite the people to respond “Blessed be God forever” if I’m not mistaken. This can’t be done while a hymn is being sung and I’ve witnessed this quite a few times.
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TheMc
Guest
Actually, the GIRM only states that the people reply this if the priest prays these prayers out loud, which only happens when there is no organ or offertory chant, other chant, or other illict song that replaces the chant.
- If, however, there is no Offertory Chant and the organ is not played, in the presentation of the bread and wine the Priest may say the formulas of blessing aloud and the people acclaim, blessed be God for ever.
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Corki
Guest
This is one of my pet peeves - when the priest just stands and waits until the hymn is over and then does the blessing so that everyone can “participate”.
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liturgyluver
Guest
I agree that a lot of the really vacuous modern music has probably turned a lot of people of, and contributed to the problem. I personally think the guitary folk mass is an afront to the dignity of the liturgy, and I avoid it all costs, though I have a cousin who still loves them.
“O God, Our Help in ages past” is one of my favourite hymns, and we shall sing it on Rememberance Sunday in 2 weeks time. I think Issac Watts - who I think was presbyterian - was a real genius. He also composed “When I survey the Wondorous Cross”, and “Jesus Shall reign wher’er the sun”.
J
johnnykins
Guest
Agreed. Perhaps it’s another reason to keep with chant. Granted, some hate chant, but it at least has been deemed particularly suitable to the Mass.
All prior eras have had their fair share of terrible music. “Bring Flowers of the Fairest” and “Tis the Month of our Mother” are two particularly treacly 19th century contributions.
C
churchmusicgirl
Guest
I personally attribute some of the “lack of singing” in church today to what I call the “American Idol” effect. There is a lot of media today that, in my opinion, promotes the idea that if you do not sound exactly like what [fill in person or show here] says you should sound like, that you shouldn’t even bother with opening your mouth. I tell people now that the point isn’t to sound like the Vienna Choir Boys or Mormon Tabernacle Choir - the point is that this is something we do together.
What has worked for me:
What has worked for me:
- Choose music that is within the skill of your choir and/or musicians.
- Choose music that is within the skill of your congregation. You don’t have to coddle them, but don’t throw too much at them too fast.
- When possible, have a man or a woman with a lower-pitched voice demonstrate new music. Or if you have a soprano do so, have her “warm” her voice and pitch it down, so to speak.
- Sometimes a little bit of catechesis goes a long way. Knowing why we are singing sometimes can be enough incentive to get mouths moving.
- Find out what music moves your congregation. I have been surprised by teens who liked chant and older folks who were so glad to have “something more peppy.”
C
cothrige
Guest
Just a couple of thoughts after reading through some of the responses.
I have seen the idea that singing is praying twice mentioned a few times and I feel compelled to point out that this is entirely untrue. In our parish we have been treated with Three Little Birds by Bob Marley and every Christmas get to endure the lovely Communion hymn Mary Had a Little Lamb. These are only two of the most memorable. At almost every Mass the “hymns” have nothing to do with worship or liturgy and seem to be drawn from pop music CDs or the like. In order for singing to be praying at all the song must first be a prayer, and in many (most?) cases this is obviously not the case.
Personally, I sing during the liturgy and when liturgical music is used. That means I sing the Gloria, the Our Father (unless the words are changed when I will not), the Agnus Dei (with the same caveats as the Our Father), etc. I ignore the junk they stick into the Mass all about how wonderful we are or how God loves to dance or whatever else there is. That stuff I endure, but I won’t join in. It would only encourage them. If I am to be expected to sing at all then the material must be Catholic. Thoroughly Catholic. I was laughing with my wife the other day after going to the “traditional” Mass so as to get something better than Amy Grant as music, only to be met with A Mighty Fortress. It’s good to know that traditional Catholicism is now the product of Martin Luther.
I have seen the idea that singing is praying twice mentioned a few times and I feel compelled to point out that this is entirely untrue. In our parish we have been treated with Three Little Birds by Bob Marley and every Christmas get to endure the lovely Communion hymn Mary Had a Little Lamb. These are only two of the most memorable. At almost every Mass the “hymns” have nothing to do with worship or liturgy and seem to be drawn from pop music CDs or the like. In order for singing to be praying at all the song must first be a prayer, and in many (most?) cases this is obviously not the case.
Personally, I sing during the liturgy and when liturgical music is used. That means I sing the Gloria, the Our Father (unless the words are changed when I will not), the Agnus Dei (with the same caveats as the Our Father), etc. I ignore the junk they stick into the Mass all about how wonderful we are or how God loves to dance or whatever else there is. That stuff I endure, but I won’t join in. It would only encourage them. If I am to be expected to sing at all then the material must be Catholic. Thoroughly Catholic. I was laughing with my wife the other day after going to the “traditional” Mass so as to get something better than Amy Grant as music, only to be met with A Mighty Fortress. It’s good to know that traditional Catholicism is now the product of Martin Luther.
G
Georgia
Guest
I know we all have to hear any song for the first time, but my parish and the one just up the road seem to seek out the most obscure music. It is at every Mass I seem to hear some music I never heard before and likely never will again. Going back to the better-known hymns could help.
We once had a pastor who did his homily on saying that singing was not optional. He was of the opinion that people had to participate in every part of the Mass. After that homily, most people joined in with the music.
I wonder about the large number of people who participate in nothing other than in the right postures and in going forward to receive. There is now a good one-third of the people at any given Mass in my area who never respond. I have been a little startled to hear my quiet voice clearly on responses because so few around me participate. I wonder why. Sure, plenty of people feel awkward about singing, but I can’t imagine why they don’t join in things like the Our Father.
We once had a pastor who did his homily on saying that singing was not optional. He was of the opinion that people had to participate in every part of the Mass. After that homily, most people joined in with the music.
I wonder about the large number of people who participate in nothing other than in the right postures and in going forward to receive. There is now a good one-third of the people at any given Mass in my area who never respond. I have been a little startled to hear my quiet voice clearly on responses because so few around me participate. I wonder why. Sure, plenty of people feel awkward about singing, but I can’t imagine why they don’t join in things like the Our Father.
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roadsend
Guest
I could have written this post and I completely concur with your position.Just a couple of thoughts after reading through some of the responses.
I have seen the idea that singing is praying twice mentioned a few times and I feel compelled to point out that this is entirely untrue. In our parish we have been treated with Three Little Birds by Bob Marley and every Christmas get to endure the lovely Communion hymn Mary Had a Little Lamb. These are only two of the most memorable. At almost every Mass the “hymns” have nothing to do with worship or liturgy and seem to be drawn from pop music CDs or the like. In order for singing to be praying at all the song must first be a prayer, and in many (most?) cases this is obviously not the case.
Personally, I sing during the liturgy and when liturgical music is used. That means I sing the Gloria, the Our Father (unless the words are changed when I will not), the Agnus Dei (with the same caveats as the Our Father), etc. I ignore the junk they stick into the Mass all about how wonderful we are or how God loves to dance or whatever else there is. That stuff I endure, but I won’t join in. It would only encourage them. If I am to be expected to sing at all then the material must be Catholic. Thoroughly Catholic. I was laughing with my wife the other day after going to the “traditional” Mass so as to get something better than Amy Grant as music, only to be met with A Mighty Fortress. It’s good to know that traditional Catholicism is now the product of Martin Luther.
The worst we had was “here comes peter cottontail” as we were leaving church on Easter Sunday a number of years ago. That was a bit too much, even for our rather liberal Pastor, so it only happened once.
BTW we had “A Mighty Fortress” last Sunday also.
I wonder if it is suggested for that Sunday in the OCP song leaders guide?
L
liturgyluver
Guest
That’s fair enough - a lot of the new hymns (or songs as they are sometimes called) that can be banal are actually penned by Catholics whilst what we associate as the more traditional and liturgical material is Lutheran or Anglican in origin.Just a couple of thoughts after reading through some of the responses.
I have seen the idea that singing is praying twice mentioned a few times and I feel compelled to point out that this is entirely untrue. In our parish we have been treated with Three Little Birds by Bob Marley and every Christmas get to endure the lovely Communion hymn Mary Had a Little Lamb. These are only two of the most memorable. At almost every Mass the “hymns” have nothing to do with worship or liturgy and seem to be drawn from pop music CDs or the like. In order for singing to be praying at all the song must first be a prayer, and in many (most?) cases this is obviously not the case.
Personally, I sing during the liturgy and when liturgical music is used. That means I sing the Gloria, the Our Father (unless the words are changed when I will not), the Agnus Dei (with the same caveats as the Our Father), etc. I ignore the junk they stick into the Mass all about how wonderful we are or how God loves to dance or whatever else there is. That stuff I endure, but I won’t join in. It would only encourage them. If I am to be expected to sing at all then the material must be Catholic. Thoroughly Catholic. I was laughing with my wife the other day after going to the “traditional” Mass so as to get something better than Amy Grant as music, only to be met with A Mighty Fortress. It’s good to know that traditional Catholicism is now the product of Martin Luther.
I can understand this reluctance to sing popy or folksy material, but it also seems that people are as unlikely to sing traditional material as contemporary: In the last fortnight two examples of traditional hymns - Praise to the Holiest in the Height, and Sweet Sacrament Divine - were scheduled and were both met with stoney silence.
D
David89
Guest
How can we get people to sing?
PS: I also think it would help if the priest sung the mass. I really enjoy it when this happens
- The priest encouraging people to sing as a form of woreship and as part of our participation in the mass
- Turn down the organ
- While on the organ to be honest most of the time it sounds horrible. Whats wrong with using other instruments in the mass. Im not talking about a band, but how about some guitar everynow and then
- encourage the music ministry to grow, invite new members for fresh ideas
- increase the size of the chior or increase their volume so those who are afraid of sounding bad, or not wanting to stand out can also sing, as they can percieve more people also singing and do not feel as shy
PS: I also think it would help if the priest sung the mass. I really enjoy it when this happens
C
Cat
Guest
Good post. I like the phrase “American Idol Effect.”
I think that we are very much a 'spectator" society in the U.S.A. We watch sports, but most of us do not play them. We watch adventures, but most of us do not seek them. We watch people losing weight, but most of us do not change our diet or attempt to add more exercise to our routine.
And more than anything, we watch the arts and listen to music, but most of us do not create art or make our own music.
We prefer to hear music from an earbud rather than from our own heads or fingers or lungs…
Just last night my husband was attempting to teach me how to waltz (ballroom). He kept fiddling with our TiVo trying to find a waltz that was slow enough and didn’t segue into a piece with a different time signature. I finally exclaimed, “Just hum the freakin’ song! You can make your own waltz music and use any tempo you wish, and even slow it down a little when I can’t keep up!”
Just for the record, I do not own an iPod and I don’t see myself ever owning an iPod. I also don’t listen to music in the car. I have a few CDs that I will play at home while I’m cleaning the house. But most of the time, I prefer to hum or sing softly to myself. I’ll attend concerts to hear professionals, but I would rather go to recitals to hear students, or play in a recital myself.
S
Sarabande
Guest
Cat, I do understand your feelings on this because singing for me is very important spiritually, whether it is secular, religious or sacred music. That said, we do have to remember that singing in the congregation was not a big part of Catholic worship at mass (I stress at mass) until recently. If you have not already, I really recommend reading “Why Catholics Don’t Sing”. You do get an understanding and idea as to why many Catholic cutlures do not sing today. Because you come from a Protestant background where singing is a big thing, I can imagine how foreign and sad this is to you.
It’s not just young people not singing at mass. It’s people from all generations, which is part of the reason why there are threads like this one asking how to get congregations to sing. You do hear older people sing more, but people in their 60s and younger tend to not sing either. What I’ve found, especially when I was teaching music to children at a Catholic school was that when the children are very young from age 3 to about 8 or 9, they sing very well at mass. Then as they get older, peer pressure and then the influence of their parents will stop them from singing. You saw many parents not sing or even say the spoken responses at mass. So, as a child, when you see your parents not doing it, why should you do it? The ones who kept singing also had parents who sang, or at least one parent. Both of my parents loved singing, so we were always singing at mass.
That all said, as much as I love singing, I am also understanding of those who do not want to sing. A number of my relatives who don’t sing have expressed to me that they get more spiritually out of listening than singing and would rather hear the choir sing a motet or anthem than to sing. I understand this sentiment because I sometimes like to just meditate and pray, absorbing the instrumental and vocal music at mass. It sometimes is more spiritually meaningful than to actually sing.
I don’t believe in forcing people to sing at mass or making others feel like they are doing something wrong by not singing (I’m not saying you are advocating this), but I’ve seen people seem to advocate those kinds of sentiments and have even experienced priests who would make the congregation sing the gospel acclamation again at mass or repeat the processional hymn if they didn’t think they sang enough. They would treat them like children. I don’t think that’s right and it would turn me off completely if I wasn’t a naturally singing-type-of-person.
There are many good suggestions on here to encourage more congregational singing, but I think we still should be respectful and understanding of those who do not want to sing for whatever spiritual or personal reasons.
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Inquiringperson
Guest
I’m confused. Are we supposed to sing during Mass?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Lol. You can sing if you want, but you don’t have to. Personally, I prefer to hear a good choir. Other people resent that and like to hear a full congregation singing. I can respect that, but I disagree in most cases.
O
Ohana
Guest
Way to go Cat!. I thought this was worth repeating. I am afraid some here are awfully prejudiced against some hymns. I got very tired of Holy God . . as a child, but am coming back to liking it. I have always loved the Call/Response nature of Here I am. I was once in an auditorium filled with people sing that as loud as they could, with arms uplifted during the Here I am part. Thought my heart would burst!
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Inquiringperson
Guest
I agree. I don’t meant to brag, but my musical intelligence is pretty high so when I hear tons of notes that don’t fit well together, like a lot of c’s and c sharp’s, I immediately am distracted from a bad sounding crowd of singers if I’m not on guard. I can understand the idea of everyone singing as it can cause participation, but I don’t sing, so I just tune it out and focus on the Mass.
From what I observed, I notice that masses with older people in the congregation tends to be silent while masses with teens tends to have lots of teens singing. Anyone notice this in their parish?
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