suicide is forbidden in islam

[MugenOne]

I agree with Lance. Until Muslims go on TV and denounce Islamist terrorism, nothing gonna change. I remember there was a air talk show host in California asking the Muslim population to join him in a peaceful protest against Islam terrorist. Guess what? No one wanted to join him. And now you wonder why the rest of the world still has this negative perception to Islam.

Lance:

It matters not what Matt25, Edris, r.gonzales or any other Islamic apologist says here. What matters is what the murdering scum bags who committ these acts think. Do you believe for one moment the hi-jackers on 9/11 thought they were going to hell for what they did? Do you think the woman who blew herself up at the police station in Iraq yesterday thought she was going to hell? No, they thought they were going to heaven because this is what they had been taught by their religious leaders. It is not up to Christianity to change the perception of Islam as a violent religion, it is up to Islam and it’s adherents to do so. People can say Islam is a religion of peace until the cows come home but until the Islamist stop committing most of the acts of terrorism in the world I and most other Christians and Jews are not going to believe it.

 

[Lance]

r.gonzales:

and what do you think the muslims who come on this forum to defend their religion from attacks and to clear up misconceptions and deceitful lies spread by missionaries hostile to their religion are doing? muslims who are upon the correct understanding and application of their religion are obligated to call others to it - whether they be muslims who have deviated in some shape or form or non-muslims. and this is what many organisations are doing - trying to call and invite people to islam’s correct understanding and application and part of this entails warning from heretic innovations in religion and incorrect understandings.

Actions speak louder than words. What have you done to stop the terrorist? Have you writtten to the editor of your local paper condemning the terrorist, honor killings, the stoning of adulterers and other autrocities committed in the name of Islam? have you demonstrated against any of these things? If not, why not?

 

[r.gonzales]

cute2904:

amusement park is much better rather than to hear your statement over and over again about your faith.

quite amusing coming from someone who’s been posting in the section of this site dedicated to discussion about islam.

cute2904:

if you still want Islam has a good face infront of the people of the world then do something… not just defending, screaming, yelling ignorant to people who opposite you.

who’s screaming or yelling here? certainly, not i. as for calling people ignorant who oppose me, i only call people ignorant if they display its signs - not merely because they oppose what i’m saying. you, from what you’ve displayed thus far in the posts i’ve read is ignorance of islam and a whole bunch of cut & paste from protestant missionary sites like answering-islam.org.

cute2904:

Always find excuses even though we quoted statements/verses from your books.

they’d be excuses if your quotes were quoted in their proper contexts, conveying their proper meanings. however, most of what you’ve quoted from our scriptures has been taken out of context, conveying meanings contrary to the meanings they actually carry.

cute2904:

I want to see your action there and convert and bring back those mislead muslim, those who are doing bad things to the world.

ha! f.y.i., i volunteer my time to an islamic propagation organisation that calls and invites people to islam’s correct understanding - both muslims and non-muslims. it’s an organisation that holds yearly conventions where it brings legitimate muslim scholars from overseas to give lectures and teach the people their religion, one that holds weekly videolinks and other such events in order to do the same thing. i do my part in calling mislead muslims and non-muslims to my religion - aside from what i do here, which is just one forum of many that i am a registered member of.

with all due respect ms. cute2904, you don’t know me or what i do away from this forum. nor can you “see [my] action” away from it. so your asking for such is pointless.

cute2904:

In the same term I may say, 9/11 was OK as extremists think that America (and its allies) invaded Afghanistan?

what part of “forbidden to kill innocent civilians and non-combatants” do you not understand?

MugenOne:

Until Muslims go on TV and denounce Islamist terrorism, nothing gonna change. I remember there was a air talk show host in California asking the Muslim population to join him in a peaceful protest against Islam terrorist. Guess what? No one wanted to join him. And now you wonder why the rest of the world still has this negative perception to Islam.

you take one incident in a single state in america and assume that it’s the case for the muslim world in general??? i’m sorry, but that’s ridiculous.

f.y.i., statements denouncing terrorism - whether committed by muslims or non-muslims, flood many muslim newspapers and tv shows. there have been conferences and lectures held by muslims in the uk denouncing such things. there have been public official statements issued by the top islamic scholarly committees in saudi and various other countries. governments from various muslim countries have been actively searching for and arresting individuals linked to terrorist activities. run a search here on this forum and you’ll find some links to such news sites and articles that prove this is going on. but simply due to the fact that western media chooses not to disclose these things to the american people, it goes unrecognised and adds to the negative stigma currently attached to islam and muslims.

 

[Matt25]

MugenOne:

I agree with Lance. Until Muslims go on TV and denounce Islamist terrorism, nothing gonna change. I remember there was a air talk show host in California asking the Muslim population to join him in a peaceful protest against Islam terrorist. Guess what? No one wanted to join him. And now you wonder why the rest of the world still has this negative perception to Islam.

Many Muslims have condemned terrorism on TV and off it. I can provide you with links but I guess I would be wasting my time. Let me try another tack. If you think that all/most/many Muslims are wedded by their religion to terrorism does that mean that the USA is wasting its time trying to bring freedom and democracy to Muslim countries? Because if Islam is as hateful as you pretend it is then all these allies of the US in the Iraqi army etc are really just hidden enemies only waiting for a chance to murder Americans.

 

[Writer]

Matt25:

Many Muslims have condemned terrorism on TV and off it. I can provide you with links but I guess I would be wasting my time. Let me try another tack. If you think that all/most/many Muslims are wedded by their religion to terrorism does that mean that the USA is wasting its time trying to bring freedom and democracy to Muslim countries? Because if Islam is as hateful as you pretend it is then all these allies of the US in the Iraqi army etc are really just hidden enemies only waiting for a chance to murder Americans.

There are indeed some groups out there voicing their opposition. A rally was recently held in Portland, Oregon, which had some pretty articulate Muslims present to state their opposition to Islamic terrorism. They could certainly do more (and the media could report it better), but internal opposition to the terrorists is starting to be visible.

 

[Franze]

Matt25:

Many Muslims have condemned terrorism on TV and off it. I can provide you with links but I guess I would be wasting my time. Let me try another tack. If you think that all/most/many Muslims are wedded by their religion to terrorism does that mean that the USA is wasting its time trying to bring freedom and democracy to Muslim countries? Because if Islam is as hateful as you pretend it is then all these allies of the US in the Iraqi army etc are really just hidden enemies only waiting for a chance to murder Americans.

Matt25, you are forgetting like forever, that there aren´t a “true” islam, because there are a free intepretation of Koran, for this reason, people like Ben Laden and R.Gonzalez, are expressing their opinions, what Islam is good, the made by Al-Azhar University, and the shiites? and other schools like malakits or wahabbites?
In Islam, there a powerful relativism.

 

[Matt25]

Franze:

Matt25, you are forgetting like forever, that there aren´t a “true” islam, because there are a free intepretation of Koran, for this reason, people like Ben Laden and R.Gonzalez, are expressing their opinions, what Islam is good, the made by Al-Azhar University, and the shiites? and other schools like malakits or wahabbites?
In Islam, there a powerful relativism.

When you mention al-Azhar I take it you want to remind us of this-

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3059365.stm

** One of the world’s most influential Islamic leaders has condemned all attacks by suicide bombers at an international conference for Islamic scholars. **Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam. Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends…
"Extremism is the enemy of Islam. Whereas, jihad is allowed in Islam to defend one's land, to help the oppressed. The difference between jihad in Islam and extremism is like the earth and the sky," Sheikh Tantawi said. Sheikh Tantawi said Muslim suicide attacks, including those against Israelis, were wrong and could not be justified.

 

[jcaz]

Here’s a summation of the Muslim and Christian discussion thus far…BUT, let’s flip the coin and use a different topic.

Catholic: Catholicism does not allow Abortion! God says so in the Bible, and the Vatican says so. Here are the evidences.

Dumb Muslim Response #1: “Too bad many Catholics disagree with you. That shows you are wrong.”

Catholic Response: What? Are you stupid? Didn’t you just see me give you the verses of the Bible and the statement from our Pope on the subject? Can you NOT READ? Are you Dumb??? What does it matter IF MORE THAN 50% OF ALL CATHOLICS DISAGREED WITH ME? If the Bible and the Church says it is wrong, then the beliefs of ignorant Catholics doesn’t matter!!!

Dumb Muslim Response #2: “As long as the ‘Catholic’ that does not condone these acts is not the ‘Catholic’ that is being followed by the people who are committing abortion, it doesn’t matter a hoot whether ‘the Catholic Faith’ or ‘the Vatican’ condones or condemns them. The Catholics committing abortion will continue to do so and will continue to find justification in other verses of the Bible that claim that it is okay to do this crazy act.”

Catholic Response: What the heck did you just say? How does the ignorant catholic who commits abortion and tries to attach that action to verses from the Bible, how does this person have anything to do with the FACT that God says it is wrong??? Does this person make Catholic Faith bad?

INSANELY Dumb Muslim Response #3 (based on Lances comments): "It doesn’t matter what all you Catholics say here. Bottom line, there are tons of Catholic scum who go murder innocent babies when they abort a fetus. Do you think for one moment that those abortionists that they are doing wrong? Do you think they expect to burn in Hell? You can claim that Catholicism is against abortion ‘until the cows come home’, but until Catholics stop aborting their kids, I and other Muslims are just not going to believe what you say. So don’t try to tell me you are against abortion!

Catholic Response: Let me understand here. I’m giving you the verses from the Bible. I’m giving you statements of official church people. You, however, are going to tell me what Catholics believe based on the actions of people who GO AGAINST THE CHURCH?

Muslim Response: Well there are many Catholics many Catholics who have abortions, and the are even Catholic head people in America who say you can have abortions!

Catholic Response: You mean the “American Catholic Church”. They are not Catholics!

Muslim Response: Who are you to say? Those people say they are Catholics and they say that they have justification to commit abortions. So it doesn’t matter what statements you guys make on this forum, no matter what you say, WE know that Catholics allow abortion.

Guys, work with me! Can you imagine the stupidity of the “Muslim responses” that I just gave. Can you imagine how asinine those statements are.

Yet this sums up exactly your responses to r.gonzales.

 

[George_Waters]

We are told Islam is against suicide. We point out how some Muslims act contrary to the Quran (based on the quotes provided on this thread by Muslims) as proven by their actions (reported worldwide by numerous agencies). Then all we get is the same ole “You are a fool for believing the media!” response. Islamic jurisprudence? Really, what does that have to do with reports of suicide bombers? Why are we attacked for being skeptical of a “peaceful” religion where thousand of its believers murder innocent people worldwide? Actions speak louder than words. If you believe suicide is wrong and murder is wrong why can’t you just admit not all Muslims are faithful to Islam?

 

[jcaz]

Originally posted by George Waters

Actions speak louder than words. If you believe suicide is wrong and murder is wrong why can’t you just admit not all Muslims are faithful to Islam?

George, did you read my posts? And have you read others’ posts.

George, by agreeing that these terrorist actions are done by “muslims” and by giving all the evidences from the Quraan and Sunnah showing that these actions are wrong, it would seem to be a given that we are stating that these people are not “faithful”.

Rather it has been stated numerous times that these ignorant Muslims are NOT faithful to Islaam, at least with regards to these actions in question. So your statement of “why can’t you just admit that not all Muslims are faithful to Islam?” does not make sense. That is the very statement that we are trying to make to everyone.

These terrorists are NOT following Islaam. Rather, they are going AGAINST Islaam. Thus, they are obviously not “faithful” to the Islaamic teachings of not killing yourself and not killing innocent people.

Hopefully this clarifies that for you George.

 

[Edris]

George Waters:

We are told Islam is against suicide. We point out how some Muslims act contrary to the Quran (based on the quotes provided on this thread by Muslims) as proven by their actions (reported worldwide by numerous agencies). Then all we get is the same ole “You are a fool for believing the media!” response. Islamic jurisprudence? Really, what does that have to do with reports of suicide bombers? Why are we attacked for being skeptical of a “peaceful” religion where thousand of its believers murder innocent people worldwide? Actions speak louder than words. If you believe suicide is wrong and murder is wrong why can’t you just admit not all Muslims are faithful to Islam?

Who said that all muslims are faithful to Islam?,  of course not.

and every religion has it’s “black sheep”. There are 1.3 Billion muslims now in the world, if 1% of them are bad, then you have 13 million muslim terrorists, now you and everyone know that this isn’t true. I mean the Taliban + Hamas + the terrorists in iraq they won’t add up to 1 million (0.07% of muslims in the world). On the other hand you have G.W. Bush, the president of the united states, I’m not gonna say that all americans are behind him, but everyone knows that bush is an evangelical, and he keeps winning the elections because of the evangelical votes. There are 45million evangelicals in the US. In case you don’t know, evangelicals have the same exact mentality of binladen and zarqawi. The evangilicals they want to wipe out all muslims in the middle east (Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Sudan, Jordan, and Parts of Egypt) to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ. They are afraid that if Jesus pbuh descends in the middle east, and the muslims were the majority there, they might “crucify him” like the Jews did 2000 years ago!!.

  I don't want to turn this thread into analysing politics and stuff,   but you keep amplifying what bad muslims do and turn a blind eye on what your  bad people do.

Peace

 

[Darrel]

There are 45million evangelicals in the US. In case you don’t know, evangelicals have the same exact mentality of binladen and zarqawi. The evangilicals they want to wipe out all muslims in the middle east (Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Sudan, Jordan, and Parts of Egypt) to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ. They are afraid that if Jesus pbuh descends in the middle east, and the muslims were the majority there, they might “crucify him” like the Jews did 2000 years ago!!.

GW is a methodist, can you support any of this with some linked info? Why would Christians need to prepare the world for the second coming? Is this a joke?

-D

 

[Edris]

Darrel:

GW is a methodist, can you support any of this with some linked info? Why would Christians need to prepare the world for the second coming? Is this a joke?

-D

  Joke for you,  Belief for them.

Steve Waldman
Editor-in-Chief, Beliefnet

"Evangelicals claim President Bush as their own. Yet Bush is a member of the United Methodist Church. Is Bush an evangelical or is he a Methodist, or is he both? Can you be both?
You certainly can be evangelical and Methodist. I think a lot of people assume that evangelical means Baptist. But evangelical is a style, and an approach to your personal faith that actually cuts across a lot of different Christian denominations.
In fact, a lot of evangelical churches now are non-denominational. Distinctions like Methodist, or Presbyterian are less important than they used to be. And so you can be evangelical and be a Methodist.

Would you say Bush is an evangelical?
I think if you look at the definition, the characteristics of an evangelical, he pretty much fits it. He talks about having a personal relationship with God. He talks about having had a transformational experience. He talks about the centrality of the Bible in his life.
The only characteristic of evangelicals that he probably wouldn’t say he has is the obligation to evangelize. And as he has appropriately said, that’s not really the proper role for the president of the United States. But in three out of four of the characteristics that you often see of evangelicals, he fits the bill.
Why doesn’t he call himself an evangelical or a born again? I think for political reasons, probably. That he knows that the word “evangelical,” in some sectors, is a scary word. And that the word “born again,” I some sectors, is a scary word.
So he talks about the importance of God, which is actually kind of a popular concept, without talking about being evangelical or a born again, or part of the religious right, or anything like that, that carries baggage."

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/interviews/waldman.html

 

[Lance]

jcaz:

Here’s a summation of the Muslim and Christian discussion thus far…BUT, let’s flip the coin and use a different topic.

Catholic: Catholicism does not allow Abortion! God says so in the Bible, and the Vatican says so. Here are the evidences.

Dumb Muslim Response #1: “Too bad many Catholics disagree with you. That shows you are wrong.”

Catholic Response: What? Are you stupid? Didn’t you just see me give you the verses of the Bible and the statement from our Pope on the subject? Can you NOT READ? Are you Dumb??? What does it matter IF MORE THAN 50% OF ALL CATHOLICS DISAGREED WITH ME? If the Bible and the Church says it is wrong, then the beliefs of ignorant Catholics doesn’t matter!!!

Dumb Muslim Response #2: “As long as the ‘Catholic’ that does not condone these acts is not the ‘Catholic’ that is being followed by the people who are committing abortion, it doesn’t matter a hoot whether ‘the Catholic Faith’ or ‘the Vatican’ condones or condemns them. The Catholics committing abortion will continue to do so and will continue to find justification in other verses of the Bible that claim that it is okay to do this crazy act.”

Catholic Response: What the heck did you just say? How does the ignorant catholic who commits abortion and tries to attach that action to verses from the Bible, how does this person have anything to do with the FACT that God says it is wrong??? Does this person make Catholic Faith bad?

INSANELY Dumb Muslim Response #3 (based on Lances comments): "It doesn’t matter what all you Catholics say here. Bottom line, there are tons of Catholic scum who go murder innocent babies when they abort a fetus. Do you think for one moment that those abortionists that they are doing wrong? Do you think they expect to burn in Hell? You can claim that Catholicism is against abortion ‘until the cows come home’, but until Catholics stop aborting their kids, I and other Muslims are just not going to believe what you say. So don’t try to tell me you are against abortion!

Catholic Response: Let me understand here. I’m giving you the verses from the Bible. I’m giving you statements of official church people. You, however, are going to tell me what Catholics believe based on the actions of people who GO AGAINST THE CHURCH?

Muslim Response: Well there are many Catholics many Catholics who have abortions, and the are even Catholic head people in America who say you can have abortions!

Catholic Response: You mean the “American Catholic Church”. They are not Catholics!

Muslim Response: Who are you to say? Those people say they are Catholics and they say that they have justification to commit abortions. So it doesn’t matter what statements you guys make on this forum, no matter what you say, WE know that Catholics allow abortion.

Guys, work with me! Can you imagine the stupidity of the “Muslim responses” that I just gave. Can you imagine how asinine those statements are.

Yet this sums up exactly your responses to r.gonzales.

How many Catholics agree with abortion? Would you say that a Muslim has never had or given an abortion? I say more Muslims agree with terrorism than Catholics agree with abortion. When was the last time you saw Catholics rejoicing in the streets because some woman had an abortion? What type of despicable, sick religion would people have to belong to to rejoice at the murder of a human being?
Work with you? Only when you open your eyes and admit that Islam has a problem and is doing next to nothing to fix it.

 

[r.gonzales]

this is the type of ignorance and bigotry that is evident in so many people… and the complaint is to Allah.

Lance:

I say more Muslims agree with terrorism than Catholics agree with abortion. When was the last time you saw Catholics rejoicing in the streets because some woman had an abortion?

that’s your opinion and it’s based on the propaganda spread by western media. and even if that stuff was true, the actions of a few don’t represent the beliefs and views of the group as a whole, let alone what the religion condones or promotes.

Lance:

What type of despicable, sick religion would people have to belong to to rejoice at the murder of a human being?
Work with you? Only when you open your eyes and admit that Islam has a problem and is doing next to nothing to fix it.

sure, blame the religion for the perceived actions of an extreme minority of those who ascribe themselves to it. that’s like saying the whole of christianity is a sick, despicable and perverted homoerotic religion because some of its male catholic authority figures take pleasure out of molesting young little boys.

islam is a religion, it contains laws and legislations that originate from the Quran and prophet muhammad’s teachings. it’s not an institution like the “church”. the problem does not lie withing islam, the problem lies in the ones who ascribe themselves to it and those in authority over them - the various rulers and the various religious leaders. the rules and legislations are there to be followed, whether or not people follow them is up to the people themselves. lack of adherence to the legislation does not necessitate a problem in the legislation itself, however, one thing that it does indicate is deficiency in those who ascribe themselves to it - whether it be due to weakness in faith and will to obey what is legislated, due to ignorance of the legislation or due to flat out rejection of it.

 

[Lance]

r.gonzales:

this is the type of ignorance and bigotry that is evident in so many people… and the complaint is to Allah.

that’s your opinion and it’s based on the propaganda spread by western media. and even if that stuff was true, the actions of a few don’t represent the beliefs and views of the group as a whole, let alone what the religion condones or promotes.

sure, blame the religion for the perceived actions of an extreme minority of those who ascribe themselves to it. that’s like saying the whole of christianity is a sick, despicable and perverted homoerotic religion because some of its male catholic authority figures take pleasure out of molesting young little boys.

islam is a religion, it contains laws and legislations that originate from the Quran and prophet muhammad’s teachings. it’s not an institution like the “church”. the problem does not lie withing islam, the problem lies in the ones who ascribe themselves to it and those in authority over them - the various rulers and the various religious leaders. the rules and legislations are there to be followed, whether or not people follow them is up to the people themselves. lack of adherence to the legislation does not necessitate a problem in the legislation itself, however, one thing that it does indicate is deficiency in those who ascribe themselves to it - whether it be due to weakness in faith and will to obey what is legislated, due to ignorance of the legislation or due to flat out rejection of it.

I don’t remember see any Catholics rejoicing that some of our priests had molested children, I do remember see Muslims rejoicing after 9/11. And I don’t follow your 1st statement about the complaint being to Allah. By the way I am neither ignorant or a bigot, lets not resort to name calling. Stick to the facts and if the facts prove you wrong then take it like a man and admit you were wrong.

 

[jcaz]

Originally posted by Lance:

How many Catholics agree with abortion?

What does that matter? If you are trying to say that only a small percent agree, then the same goes for Islam and the beliefs of these crazed terrorists. Yet you try to impose their idiotic beliefs on Islaam, in your pathetic effort at defaming this religion.

Again, posted by Lance:

What type of despicable, sick religion would people have to belong to to rejoice at the murder of a human being?

Are you going to NIAVELY ASSUME that ignorant Christians/Catholics never rejoiced when they have done stupid actions, never rejoiced when killing in the name of God during the Crusades, or rejoiced when mutating women during the witch hunts? Sure you can cop out of this by saying, “well we never saw them do it.” But any realistic person knows that there were TONS of crazy catholic/christians and surely this happened. So If you want to be critical, then at least apply the same criticism all across the board!

by Lance:

Only when you open your eyes and admit that Islam has a problem and is doing next to nothing to fix it.

WRONG. Islam does NOT have a problem. Rather, Islaam is free from the actions of those crazed people. And further, the problem is with you and your choice to attribute their actions to Islaam. If you want to be a hater, then be a hater. But do yourself a favor and do not come on this board and expose yourself as one without intellect.

Lance, surely you are an intelligent person who holds a job and can think for yourself. Yet the arguments you provide suggest otherwise. Too often people check their brain at the door, boot up the cpu, connect to the internet, and then go argue on forums.

Good point posted by Lance:

Stick to the facts and if the facts prove you wrong then take it like a man and admit you were wrong.

I just had to tell someone this yesterday. And here I tell you to accept your own advice. The FACTS of Islaam prove you wrong when you say Islaam has a problem and when you say that Islaam promotes terror. The FACTS prove you are wrong. So, per your own advice, take it like a man and just admit you were wrong.

Come back and say, “fine, Islam does not allow this, according to the religious teachings, BUT there are so many (mind you, very very small percentage) people who do these acts. So even if I agree with you that the religion does not have a problem, these people do. How can we change this?”

That Lance, would be an intelligent statement, and a good starting point to a discussion. But stubborn blindness in rejecting the facts gets you no where.

And I’m sorry if this post was harsh. But too often, arguments are made, BASED ON EVIDENCE, and it is INSANE to argue, “well, it isn’t true, because I’ve seen Muslims do this.”

Catholic: “We do not allow molestation of children.”

Muslim: “Sure you do, there are many priests who have sexually molested young boys. What kind of dispicable religion allows their religious figures to molest boys.”

Catholic: “Listen you stubborn hater. The catholic church does NOT allow it. That is why these priests who are caught pay a price.”

Muslim: “yeah right. I see priests doing it all the time. I can’t believe that your religion allows this; that is just disgusting. No real religion would allow their people to do that. It is so sad that Catholics allow this.”

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

GEEZ. Can you IMAGINE the stupidity of such comments, if a Muslim were to talk to you like that. How asinine!

Yet, again, this sums up the comments made by posters such as yourself. So read and then RE-READ the Catholic/Muslim arguments/discussions that I present, and if you think that the “Muslim” makes a solid argument, then you just keep it going with those type of posts, because that is what you are currently doing, and EXACTLY how you sound.

 

[dranzal]

I think a few of you missed jcaz’s point in his previous post. He was simply pointing out that it is illogical (at best) to make assumptions about an entire religion based on the actions/beliefs of a small number of its professed (though not faithful) adherents. It is quite counter-productive.

Not all blondes are dumb because one is and not all men are pigs because one is and not all women are weak because one is and not all priests are homosexual predators because one is, etc…

The beliefs of an entire religion cannot responsibly be ascertained by observing the actions and beliefs of one of its members. Indeed, if all but Jesus and Mary (Catholic belief here) are sinless, even all of our popes are sinners.

Does Islam condone or even encourage suicide if the reason (target) is good enough? That is a question for someone known to be a faithful adherent of Islam. Alas, we cannot ask the successful bombers if they considered themselves to be faithful Muslims. Even if they did, a responsible student would pursue the question further and find more evidence from known faithful sources. (jcaz, I know you agree)

Having said all that, I wanted to simply point out one more thing. Another post said…

“islam is a religion, it contains laws and legislations that originate from the Quran and prophet muhammad’s teachings. it’s not an institution like the “church”. the problem does not lie withing islam, the problem lies in the ones who ascribe themselves to it and those in authority over them - the various rulers and the various religious leaders. the rules and legislations are there to be followed, whether or not people follow them is up to the people themselves. lack of adherence to the legislation does not necessitate a problem in the legislation itself, however, one thing that it does indicate is deficiency in those who ascribe themselves to it - whether it be due to weakness in faith and will to obey what is legislated, due to ignorance of the legislation or due to flat out rejection of it.”

This entire statement is also true of “the Church” aka Catholicism. Simply substitute Bible, Jesus, and the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit for “Quran and prophet muhammad’s teachings” and Catholicism for “Islam”. Negative things done by members of the Catholic church all the way up were never part of “Official Church Doctrine” any more than suicide minded terrorists are part of faithful Islam.

Peace, jcaz. Say hi to SCaz and Icaz for me.

 

[r.gonzales]

dranzal:

I think a few of you missed jcaz’s point in his previous post. He was simply pointing out that it is illogical (at best) to make assumptions about an entire religion based on the actions/beliefs of a small number of its professed (though not faithful) adherents. It is quite counter-productive.

Not all blondes are dumb because one is and not all men are pigs because one is and not all women are weak because one is and not all priests are homosexual predators because one is, etc…

The beliefs of an entire religion cannot responsibly be ascertained by observing the actions and beliefs of one of its members. Indeed, if all but Jesus and Mary (Catholic belief here) are sinless, even all of our popes are sinners.

Does Islam condone or even encourage suicide if the reason (target) is good enough? That is a question for someone known to be a faithful adherent of Islam. Alas, we cannot ask the successful bombers if they considered themselves to be faithful Muslims. Even if they did, a responsible student would pursue the question further and find more evidence from known faithful sources. (jcaz, I know you agree)

Having said all that, I wanted to simply point out one more thing. Another post said…

“islam is a religion, it contains laws and legislations that originate from the Quran and prophet muhammad’s teachings. it’s not an institution like the “church”. the problem does not lie withing islam, the problem lies in the ones who ascribe themselves to it and those in authority over them - the various rulers and the various religious leaders. the rules and legislations are there to be followed, whether or not people follow them is up to the people themselves. lack of adherence to the legislation does not necessitate a problem in the legislation itself, however, one thing that it does indicate is deficiency in those who ascribe themselves to it - whether it be due to weakness in faith and will to obey what is legislated, due to ignorance of the legislation or due to flat out rejection of it.”

This entire statement is also true of “the Church” aka Catholicism. Simply substitute Bible, Jesus, and the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit for “Quran and prophet muhammad’s teachings” and Catholicism for “Islam”. Negative things done by members of the Catholic church all the way up were never part of “Official Church Doctrine” any more than suicide minded terrorists are part of faithful Islam.

Peace, jcaz. Say hi to SCaz and Icaz for me.

quite possibly the best post i’ve read today. thank you, dranzal, for your just words and your fairness.

peace.

 

[Lance]

r.gonzales:

quite possibly the best post i’ve read today. thank you, dranzal, for your just words and your fairness.

peace.

I could not care less whether Islam forbids suicide or not. The fact is that of all the suicide bombings in the news they are all Muslim. The people who are posting here saying that suicide bombings are not Islamic are in the wrong place. They should be at the mosque where the hate is preached and taught and telling those people that they are wrong. Telling me I am wrong about my beliefs of Islam is not going to change anything since I am not about to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a mosque.