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catharina
Guest
Wanted to see these two posts together.
If your best effort involves “trying” to get there,
that is, “showing up” at Mass,
then possibly, your view is rather narrow.
Possibly???
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If your best effort involves “trying” to get there,
that is, “showing up” at Mass,
then possibly, your view is rather narrow.
Possibly???
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ishii
Guest
Wow, is this thread still going on? I think you’re way overthinking this. Its reasonable to suggest that people should put as much thought into what they wear to mass as they do when they go to the Outback steakhouse or to the job interview. What this is about is laziness and the relaxation of dress standards that our pop culture now seems to embrace: the torn jeans sagging down, wearing an ACDC t-shirt at mass? Come on! Can’t reasonable people agree that there should be some standard? And no, that doesn’t mean we have to wear suits (strawman #236) or that women should wear a dress (strawman #389) or that those going straight to or from work should bring a change of clothes (strawman #421). It means that we should put some thought into what we are wearing and not just throw on the dirty jeans and t-shirt laying on the floor that we wore to the rock concert the night before.
Ishii
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ChiRho
Guest
So keep lowering the standards, and give people a pat on the back if they show up? Congratulations, you took an hour out of your Sunday to go to Mass.
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catharina
Guest
:clapping::clapping:
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
The problem with that Ishii is that some people on this thread seem to indicate that is not good enough. It seems to be an either or thing.
For example, a while back…I stated that I wore jeans once in awhile…clean, dark, modest jeans. This is not what I walk the dog in (sweatpants) or what I garden in (ratty jeans). And yet people can not distinguish between that. They think we should be wearing what we would wear to meet the Pope in. They are incapable of backing down on that and in turn throw out the baby with the bath water. As I’ve stated before…I see no one stating that they want the right to wear dirty jeans-T-shirts from the night before. Heck…when it’s hot and my husband wears shorts…docker to the knee shorts…they are clean and pressed and usually worn with a polo shirt or button shirt. Not a dirty ratty appearance. It’s clean, neat, and modest. But I’m sure someone will pipe up here about that not being acceptable
dirty, excess cleavage, butts showing…too much skin, short shorts…I think we all agree…NO!
But there is no agreement on “acceptable” attire for Mass.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Hmm…the problem is what offends someone? Seriously. I’ve been told in other dress threads that having your elbows showing is immodest. So do I move into burka land? We can get so wrapped up in trying to not offend someone and trying to hit the mark that we miss the big picture. Honestly I’m trying to concentrate on Christ and not what brother so and so thinks…because sister so and so will have a different opinion. I see no value in consistantly spinning my wheels trying to be perfect and please everyone. Kind of why I left the Church in the first place. The people in my life were so caught up in rules and judgement that they could not see the bigger picture…I couldn’t find Christ in all that…and I certainly did not see love or joy in that. Someone in church might not think I’m dressing well enough in clean, dark, modest jeans but someone else might be happy to see me, smiling because they know I’ll be there most Saturday nights and Sunday.
But do we seriously think we are going to get agreement on this? I posted a while back what the actual church “leaders:” – Really a few priest had to say on this subject. It was mostly against excessive cleavage, dirty, ratty, T-shirts with logos, too short of shorts or skirts, suggestive clothing. But people have really taken it even further then that because of what they would want. Which in my opinion just throws down a stumbling block to people.
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irishpatrick
Guest
So, silly really. This ain’t rocket science.
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irishpatrick
Guest
Since I spoke of the Pope, I assume that comment was about my comments. I think you know the point I was making. If we dress down for Mass, what are we saying to those around us?The problem with that Ishii is that some people on this thread seem to indicate that is not good enough. It seems to be an either or thing.
For example, a while back…I stated that I wore jeans once in awhile…clean, dark, modest jeans. This is not what I walk the dog in (sweatpants) or what I garden in (ratty jeans). And yet people can not distinguish between that. They think we should be wearing what we would wear to meet the Pope in. They are incapable of backing down on that and in turn throw out the baby with the bath water. As I’ve stated before…I see no one stating that they want the right to wear dirty jeans-T-shirts from the night before. Heck…when it’s hot and my husband wears shorts…docker to the knee shorts…they are clean and pressed and usually worn with a polo shirt or button shirt. Not a dirty ratty appearance. It’s clean, neat, and modest. But I’m sure someone will pipe up here about that not being acceptable
dirty, excess cleavage, butts showing…too much skin, short shorts…I think we all agree…NO!
But there is no agreement on “acceptable” attire for Mass.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Just because I don’t wear to Mass what I would wear to meet the Pope does not mean I’m dressing down. It’s a silly anology really as we are not meeting the Pope everyday. And really far fetched because when am I ever going to meet the Pope?
Perhaps a better reflection would be on what you are saying to your fellow members here? It seems like you think that if someone isn’t wearing your standards…which by all I can figure out is what I would meet the Pope in to Mass…be it daily Mass or Sunday Mass…then it isn’t correct and I am setting a bad example. Someone used the anology of a fancy restaurant that requires a coat and tie. It’s a really bad anology as I have done neither…been to such a restaurant or met the Pope. To draw such comparisons and then say “but I’m not judging you” is…well…not very charitable to say the least.
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catharina
Guest
Not charitable - why not?Just because I don’t wear to Mass what I would wear to meet the Pope does not mean I’m dressing down. **It’s a silly anology really as we are not meeting the Pope everyday. And really far fetched because when am I ever going to meet the Pope?
It’s what you’re saying.
In this post, you seem to point out that you hold the Pope in
higher regard than you hold for God. We meet God in every Mass.
The Pope, only rarely. Is that what you meant to indicate?
So you’d surely "dress up " for the Pope.
HUH?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I’d also like to point out that there’s a legitimate distinction to make between spontaneous ‘excursions’ to Chapel (i.e., visits, on-the-go), and a scheduled, regular, planned Mass. For the vast majority of people – not the occasional person on a very casual vacation who might not have with him or her ‘business casual’ or ‘dressy sport’ clothes in presentable condition – we can manage to take a little bit of care when we visit our King and Saviour, in community, respecting that joint community intention.
OTOH, I grew up with the notion of “making a visit” as often as possible, perhaps because I attended traditional Catholic schools in which we were encouraged to do that daily even during the school day (or before, or after). If you’re out for a walk in casual clothes (flip-flops, athletic shoes, jeans, whatever), the urge to make a visit should predominate (assuming you’re modest, but then, you shouldn’t be out of the house if you’re not modest
).
By contrast, irishpatrick expressed so eloquently the deliberate nature of Mass and how our external effort as members of a unified Church mirror the sacred realities unique to Mass. We may have the same “hearts” for these two different circumstances, but the difference in the signficance of each is what should dictate our outward appearance, rather than some kind of childish demand that God “accept me as I am.” He does, obviously; He just doesn’t need a demonstration of an adult tantrum to accept us.
OTOH, I grew up with the notion of “making a visit” as often as possible, perhaps because I attended traditional Catholic schools in which we were encouraged to do that daily even during the school day (or before, or after). If you’re out for a walk in casual clothes (flip-flops, athletic shoes, jeans, whatever), the urge to make a visit should predominate (assuming you’re modest, but then, you shouldn’t be out of the house if you’re not modest
).By contrast, irishpatrick expressed so eloquently the deliberate nature of Mass and how our external effort as members of a unified Church mirror the sacred realities unique to Mass. We may have the same “hearts” for these two different circumstances, but the difference in the signficance of each is what should dictate our outward appearance, rather than some kind of childish demand that God “accept me as I am.” He does, obviously; He just doesn’t need a demonstration of an adult tantrum to accept us.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Please cease from assume and stating how you think I regard God or I will report you! This thread is suppose to be about the issue at hand–which in actuality is modesty and not on each other.
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catharina
Guest
I simply questioned you about your statement.
You did not answer the question. Ok, fine.
Maybe there is no answer.
People ARE allowed to question each other.
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CMatt25
Guest
Well said Annabelle Marie. But someone has brought up hairy legs with shorts. So although your husband’s knee-length shorts are pressed, it might also depend on the numbers of hairs on his legs. I suppose though someone else could determine an appropriate number for him to have.The problem with that Ishii is that some people on this thread seem to indicate that is not good enough. It seems to be an either or thing.
For example, a while back…I stated that I wore jeans once in awhile…clean, dark, modest jeans. This is not what I walk the dog in (sweatpants) or what I garden in (ratty jeans). And yet people can not distinguish between that. They think we should be wearing what we would wear to meet the Pope in. They are incapable of backing down on that and in turn throw out the baby with the bath water. As I’ve stated before…I see no one stating that they want the right to wear dirty jeans-T-shirts from the night before. Heck…when it’s hot and my husband wears shorts…docker to the knee shorts…they are clean and pressed and usually worn with a polo shirt or button shirt. Not a dirty ratty appearance. It’s clean, neat, and modest. But I’m sure someone will pipe up here about that not being acceptable
dirty, excess cleavage, butts showing…too much skin, short shorts…I think we all agree…NO!
But there is no agreement on “acceptable” attire for Mass.
That is of course if they think shorts of the kind you describe are appropriate.
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CMatt25
Guest
I can understand why you would have felt the way you did Annabelle Marie when you left the practice of the faith. Stumbling blocks is I think a good way of putting it
In addition, those few priests somehow seemed to become the few leaders everyone was supposed to follow it seems. I keep seeing posts about church leaders say this or that. But what if someone’s priest/church leader is not among those few or he has a different perspective as to what attire is appropriate compared to another priest or someone here. Who is the Catholic to follow? Their own priest and church leader or others?
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ishii
Guest
Thanks for you comments, Annabelle Marie. I think you raise some worthy points. And when it comes to attire there is definitely some gray area. You will never get 100% agreement on what is appropriate attire for mass. But I would hope that we could all agree that more thought needs to be put into what we’re wearing and that too many people seem to give it no thought at all. And this might be indicative of a larger problem of non-reverence during mass - the laughing and carrying on during the kiss of peace, the lack of reverence in line to receive communion, talking loudly while in the presense of the blessed sacrament, etc. We seem to have become too casual in general in recent decades and attire is, I think, one manifestation of that. I am speaking generally of course - there might be reasons why some wear dirty clothes and we ought to be careful not to judge individual cases not knowing what their deal is, but generally, I think people dress too shabbily. Let me be the first to pipe up about shorts: I think its too casual. In Hawaii where its warm or hot year 'round, only the tourists came to mass dressed casually. How hard is it to pack a pair of slacks? If you go to a nice restaurant while on vacation you’d not wear shorts, so why wear them at mass? The locals never wore shorts - but they would wear nice aloha shirts and slacks. While I think its possible to take this too far and be too strict - I do think that we need to do a better job here. And I speak as someone who has worn jeans to mass. A few years ago I decided to wear nicer clothes because mass is pretty special, and deserving of nicer clothes! We should want to dress nice for mass! Not agonize over what to wear, mind you, but actually want to dress up a bit - going to mass is not like anything else is it?The problem with that Ishii is that some people on this thread seem to indicate that is not good enough. It seems to be an either or thing.
For example, a while back…I stated that I wore jeans once in awhile…clean, dark, modest jeans. This is not what I walk the dog in (sweatpants) or what I garden in (ratty jeans). And yet people can not distinguish between that. They think we should be wearing what we would wear to meet the Pope in. They are incapable of backing down on that and in turn throw out the baby with the bath water. As I’ve stated before…I see no one stating that they want the right to wear dirty jeans-T-shirts from the night before. Heck…when it’s hot and my husband wears shorts…docker to the knee shorts…they are clean and pressed and usually worn with a polo shirt or button shirt. Not a dirty ratty appearance. It’s clean, neat, and modest. But I’m sure someone will pipe up here about that not being acceptable
I agree, but perhaps we could all agree on a minimum standard or atleast what not to wear.
Ishii
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ishii
Guest
I think there is a fine line between obedience and reverence and having an unhealthy fixation on superficial rules and regulations. One thing is for sure, my happiness of seeing someone at mass far outweighs any concerns about their attire. I would rather have someone go to mass dressed shabbily than not go to mass at all. That said, I think its perfectly legitimate to have this conversation, and to challenge folks (me included) to consider what is appropriate attire for mass and see if we can do anything to improve. Again, let’s not overthink this.
Ishii
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Sarabande
Guest
I think, though, based on pages of posts here, there are so many different ideas of what is dressing nicely for mass. What one person deems as dressing nicely, another person might not deem it as such (modesty issues aside). It’s partly the society that we live in today, which has become more casual in general. I’m not saying that’s completely good or completely bad, because I think there are positives and negatives from it.
As an 18th century reenactor as well as a performer who has to study the history, social customs and movements of various centuries in order to appear legitimate when I perform operas set in different time periods and when I do reenact the American Revolution, I definitely would not have wanted to live day in and day out having to wear specific kinds of clothing (especially the numerous amounts of undergarments and body “armor” for women). I also would not want to be stressed out making sure my movements, bows, hand gestures, etc. were appropriate and non-offensive. At the same time, there was a comfort in knowing exactly what was expected of you to wear. If you were working class or middle class, you usually had just one outfit (middle class you might have a couple more) for church and other special occasions. You weren’t looked down upon for just having one outfit that you’d wear every week. It was normal, but you wouldn’t think about wearing your everyday attire. In other aspects of life, especially for the wealthier classes, there were specific clothing for the time of day and you followed the “rules” for that. In one regard, what a pain in the neck. I’m also looking at it from 21st century eyes.
But, honestly, I think in some ways it was just a lot easier to know what was expected of you for different situations and occasions. Someone had brought up the question of what they would do if a person showed up to their daughter’s wedding wearing casual clothes. Well, that does depend on the situation as well. In the past, it was custom to wear your Sunday best or better for weddings. There was no question about wearing your everyday clothes. It was a lot easier to figure out what to wear. Where attire is easier to figure out for weddings than for Sunday mass today is that for most invitations it is spelled out what is expected for attire. You can mention that it is formal, semi-formal, black-tie, black-tie optional, casual, afternoon dress (although I think afternoon dress could be confusing if you’ve never done that before for a wedding or other special event), etc. So, if a person showed up in attire completely opposite of what was requested on the invitation, that is on the invitee and it could be for a few reasons… did not read the invite well and made an honest mistake, was trying to make a statement (I know people like this who will purposely show up at a formal reception in casual clothing) or just didn’t care.
Unless the parish does have specific standards spelled out either at the church or in the bulletin as to what is expected for mass people are going to dress in all different ways today… for good or ill.
I personally think the standard for most on this thread is that it is kept modest and clean, which is a good start. The only way it would ever become “uniform” again like in the past is if it came down from the top… from the Vatican or at least from the bishop/archbishop, since society, itself, no longer dictates a specific decorum for attire. But the Church has much larger problems to fix and make amends for at the moment and, honestly, from what I’ve known speaking to specific pastors, etc. I don’t even know if individual priests or just individual people would follow what comes down from the top anymore. It’s not happening with other subjects, so I don’t think it would happen with attire at least quickly or willingly. And that’s another part of our society. I mean, I’m all for individuality. I’ve always been an oddball myself and I’m very comfortable with being that way, but I think in general, the pendulum has swung way to far to one end of the spectrum in regards to just doing whatever you want.
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irishpatrick
Guest
First, nothing I have posted here is directed at you personally, so please do not take these statements as a personal attack.Just because I don’t wear to Mass what I would wear to meet the Pope does not mean I’m dressing down. It’s a silly anology really as we are not meeting the Pope everyday. And really far fetched because when am I ever going to meet the Pope?
Second, if you feel comfortable with how you dress to Mass, then great, I have nothing to say about that either way. My comments are general statements–it is now, and always has been, up to each Catholic to make their own choices. So, again, if you feel comfortable with how you dress, then nothing I have said applies to you–at all.
Third, my analogy regarding the Pope stands. I think you know full well what I am attempting to say. Many Catholics quite clearly put little to no thought at into what they wear to Mass, or how they act, or how they look. Yet, we also know that most (if not all) of those same people would dress in suits, dresses, etc…to attend a wedding, or see the Pope or even to work if it is required. Granted, those are human expectations at those events, yet my point all along is that we owe those around us a debt (regarding the faith).
Fourth, with all of this, I am simply saying that when Catholics care very little about how they look when they go to Mass, that IS a message to those around them. It is no different than if we showed-up at a wedding in shorts…it is disrepectful. God does not need us to dress well, the Body of Christ does, and especially Catholic children do (as well as our non-Catholic brethren). Dressing well shows others that we take the Mass seriously, that it means enough for us to dress well, and that is just not another “thing” we have to do. By dressing well, we are telling the world that we understand that during the Mass we are receiving our Lord and Savior–and that it is not a mere symbol, it is truly the Lord!
I intend none of this to be an attack on any person–they are general statements.
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irishpatrick
Guest
I think everyone knows what proper dress means. All this hand wringing is just silly–I doubt there is even one person here who needs a lesson regarding various levels of dress. The truth is, some want to wear the faded jean shorts and t-shirts with logos splashed all over, and they do not care what others think.
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