Sunday Mass Obligation

[FaithInTheSon]

Both of your statements are misleading.
If you cannot go to Mass or don’t know the Church’s teaching that is one thing. But not fulfilling the Sunday obligation is grave matter. For a mortal sin you need full consent, grave matter and knowledge. If all these have been met then the sin is mortal. If the sin is mortal you are at risk of Hell. You cannot die in mortal sin and go to heaven. This is the teaching of the Church. It always has been.

As for the sacraments. They are the ordinary means to eternal life in heaven. To tell someone they do not need the sacraments is like saying you dont need a spaceship to get to the moon. The spaceship is the ordinary means to get there. There may be some other way but it is irresponsible to go around telling others that very important things are not necessary.

The Church does not define anyone to be in hell. For good reason. The Church does define how to get to heaven as it has been revealed to us. What authority do you have to make a statement such as

That is at best something you do not have the authority to proclaim and at worst something that is irresponsible to say.

They were misleading you’re right.

In my defense, it is hard to tell someone that they could go to hell for not going to mass and expect them to listen if they have never been.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The sacraments are not necessary for eternal life either.

We are only united to Christ’s death and resurrection through baptism. And Jesus said unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood then you have no life in you.

Sounds pretty necessary to me.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

If, with full intent and knowledge, you do not go to Mass on a day of obligation–Holy Day or Sunday–you have committed a mortal sin. If you die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin, you go to hell. This is basic Catholic teaching.

You are right. The full intent and knowledge part is necessary, though.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

We are only united to Christ’s death and resurrection through baptism. And Jesus said unless you eat His flesh and drink His blood then you have no life in you.

Sounds pretty necessary to me.

Even the Church agrees that the baptism he is speaking of is in fact the baptism in the spirit. The baptism in water helps to achieve graces (I am almost certain).

Eating His flesh and drinking His blood helps give life on earth (where we are dead in a sense). Is this a false understanding?

 

[Moore11]

They were misleading you’re right.

In my defense, it is hard to tell someone that they could go to hell for not going to mass and expect them to listen if they have never been.

Wow, These forums and the internet would be a better place if all people were as introspective as you. It is rare to get the " I was wrong" response. It shows incredible character to be able to do that in a place where “arguing” and “debating” are the measure of people. (sadly)

I agree with you that beating them with the hell bat is not normally effective but we must be careful not to over correct the other way.

I like the idea of showing them the idea of honoring and loving God through obedience and selflessness. And showing them the logic of doing that at Mass. Which includes talking about what Mass is and what we are saying when we dont attend.

No need to mention hell really. But the OP stated that this person is a “sometimes” Mass goer and a “part time Catholic” so appealing to the teaching and authority of the Church may have to be done, as well as the idea of mortal sin. But it should not be the entirety of the argument.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Even the Church agrees that the baptism he is speaking of is in fact the baptism in the spirit. The baptism in water helps to achieve graces (I am almost certain).

Eating His flesh and drinking His blood helps give life on earth (where we are dead in a sense). Is this a false understanding?

Baptism by water is the ordinary means to salvation, but of course salvation can be lost. Baptism by blood and baptism by desire are possible, but by no means are they guaranteed.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

No one knows this but the Father. It is possible to go to Hell for missing Mass, just as it is possible to go to Hell for an unrepented mortal sin, which is why confession is so important.

The sacraments are the ordinary ways for a Catholic to attain Heaven, but keep in mind missing Mass is a violation of the third commandment to keep holy the sabbath.

True, but sorry I don’t see how that dovetails into missing Mass.

You are right. If it is possible to go to Hell for missing mass, it is just as much possible to not go to Hell for missing mass (repentance).

And it doesn’t, I was just throwing it in there to complete the thought. I should have clarified.

Sorry everyone, you are all right, and not to make excuses but I should have been more clear.

 

[midori]

My freind’s answer to this is if you REALLY LOVED Jesus there would be no need for an obligation. Just like if I REALLY loved my wife I should not have to be FORCED by the threat of the loss my eternal soul, to spend time with her. If you go to mass on Sunday because The Church says you have to or you go to hell it is worst than not going at all. My freind’s thouhgts NOT mine.

Your friend’s own argument is an argument against his own behavior. I don’t see how it would make sense to him.

What saint was it who said she first served God from fear, before she learned to serve God from love? Was it St. Catherine? There’s this thing called “mercenary love” that she talks about in her Dialog, which might apply, and if it doesn’t, is still good reading.

(from the Dialog of Catherine of Siena)
Of the imperfection of those who love GOD for their own profit, delight, and consolation.

“Some there are who have become faithful servants, serving Me with fidelity without servile fear of punishment, but rather with love. This very love, however, if they serve Me with a view to their own profit, or the delight and pleasure which they find in Me, is imperfect. Do you know what proves the imperfection of this love? The withdrawal of the consolations which they found in Me, and the insufficiency and short duration of their love for their neighbor, which grows weak by degrees, and oftentimes disappears. Towards Me their love grows weak when, on occasion, in order to exercise them in virtue and raise them above their imperfection, I withdraw from their minds My consolation and allow them to fall into battles and perplexities. This I do so that, coming to perfect self-knowledge, they may know that of themselves they are nothing and have no grace, and accordingly in time of battle fly to Me, as their Benefactor, seeking Me alone, with true humility, for which purpose I treat them thus, without drawing from them consolation indeed, but not grace.

At such a time these weak ones, of whom I speak, relax their energy, impatiently turning backwards, and sometimes abandon, under color of virtue, many of their exercises, saying to themselves, This labor does not profit me. All this they do, because they feel themselves deprived of mental consolation. Such a soul acts imperfectly, for she has not yet unwound the bandage of spiritual self-love, for, had she unwound it she would see that, in truth, everything proceeds from Me, that no leaf of a tree falls to the ground without My providence, and that what I give and promise to My creatures, I give and promise to them for their sanctification, which is the good and the end for which I created them.

My creatures should see and know that I wish nothing but their good, through the Blood of My only-begotten Son, in which they are washed from their iniquities. By this Blood they are enabled to know My Truth, how, in order to give them eternal life, I created them in My image and likeness and re-created them to grace with the Blood of My Son, making them sons of adoption. But, since they are imperfect, they make use of Me only for their own profit, relaxing their love for their neighbor. Thus, those in the first state come to naught through the fear of enduring pain, and those in the second, because they slacken their pace, ceasing to render service to their neighbor, and withdrawing their charity if they see their own profit or consolation withdrawn from them: this happens because their love was originally impure, for they gave to their neighbor the same imperfect love which they gave to Me, that is to say, a love based only on desire of their own advantage.

If, through a desire for perfection, they do not recognize this imperfection of theirs, it is impossible that they should not turn back. For those who desire Eternal Life, a pure love, prescinding from themselves, is necessary, for it is not enough for eternal life to fly sin from fear of punishment, or to embrace virtue from the motive of one’s own advantage. Sin should be abandoned because it is displeasing to Me, and virtue should be loved for My sake. It is true that, generally speaking, every person is first called in this way, but this is because the soul herself is at first imperfect, from which imperfection she must advance to perfection, either while she lives, by a generous love to Me with a pure and virtuous heart that takes no thought for herself, or, at least, in the moment of death, recognizing her own imperfection, with the purpose, had she but time, of serving Me, irrespectively of herself.

 

[midori]

It was with this imperfect love that S. Peter loved the sweet and good Jesus, My only-begotten Son, enjoying most pleasantly His sweet conversation, but, when the time of trouble came, he failed, and so disgraceful was his fall, that, not only could he not bear any pain himself, but his terror of the very approach of pain caused him to fall, and deny the Lord, with the words, ’I have never known Him.’ The soul who has climbed this step with servile fear and mercenary love alone, falls into many troubles. Such souls should arise and become sons, and serve Me, irrespective of themselves, for I, who am the Rewarder of every labor, render to each man according to his state and his labor; wherefore, if these souls do not abandon the exercise of holy prayer and their other good works, but go on, with perseverance, to increase their virtues, they will arrive at the state of filial love, because I respond to them with the same love, with which they love Me, so that, if they love Me, as a servant does his master, I pay them their wages according to their deserts, but I do not reveal Myself to them, because secrets are revealed to a friend, who has become one thing with his friend, and not to a servant.

Yet it is true, that a servant may so advance by the virtuous love, which he bears to his master, as to become a very dear friend, and so do some of these of whom I have spoken, but while they remain in the state of mercenary love, I do not manifest Myself to them. If they, through displeasure at their imperfection, and love of virtue, dig up, with hatred, the root of spiritual self-love, and mount to the throne of conscience, reasoning with themselves, so as to quell the motions of servile fear in their heart, and to correct mercenary love by the light of the holy faith, they will be so pleasing to Me, that they will attain to the love of the friend. And I will manifest Myself to them, as My Truth said in these words: ’He who loves Me shall be one thing with Me and I with him, and I will manifest Myself to him and we will dwell together.’ This is the state of two dear friends, for though they are two in body, yet they are one in soul through the affection of love, because love transforms the lover into the object loved, and where two friends have one soul, there can be no secret between them, wherefore My Truth said: ’I will come and we will dwell together,’ and this is the truth.”

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Baptism by water is the ordinary means to salvation, but of course salvation can be lost. Baptism by blood and baptism by desire are possible, but by no means are they guaranteed.

Okay I had to look it up. So if you are cleansed of original sin, why are you still held accountable? Or are you not held accountable until you fall? I know you didn’t say it but it is in the definition and I just wanted to clarify.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Baptism by water is the ordinary means to salvation, but of course salvation can be lost. Baptism by blood and baptism by desire are possible, but by no means are they guaranteed.

Also, it is my understanding that Baptism of Desire is guaranteed?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Okay I had to look it up. So if you are cleansed of original sin, why are you still held accountable? Or are you not held accountable until you fall? I know you didn’t say it but it is in the definition and I just wanted to clarify.

Baptism removes original sin and all personal sin committed up till that time; essentially, all sin. But we can only be baptized once, of course. After that, if we commit mortal sin, we must confess it. Otherwise, our souls are in imminent danger of going to hell.

 

[Wiseowl]

Answer is simple: People can’t just love Jesus Christ the way they want it.

John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

agreed, as well Sunday service is vital for Jewish and Christian denominations

 

[YoungTradCath]

Also, it is my understanding that Baptism of Desire is guaranteed?

It is not, because we cannot know if it happens. We can visually verify if a baptism is happening. We cannot do that with baptism of desire and baptism by blood. We know it is possible, however.

 

[victorbuhagiar]

You will not go to hell for not going to mass, but it is something you should confess.

The sacraments are not necessary for eternal life either.

Both are will help you, though.
BTW after he told the Lord that the Lord told him that he should then give away all his possessions. That made him sad because he had many.

What is the use of going to confession if one does not intend to go to Church on Sunday? Also without the sacraments one will not obtain eternal life. I am reminded of the parable of Jesus about the man invited to the wedding but not wearing a proper dress. Or the five foolish virgins who came to the wedding late because they did not get enough oil.

As Christians we do not have a menu to choose what suits us and what doesn’t. You are either for God all the way or not. It is our choice.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Is your friend a baptized Catholic? He’s got very Protestant ideas, and doesn’t believe in the Church’s teachings? Sounds kinda heretical to me.

Hey, I want to be at church, whether it’s a commandment or not. I want to be with “my people.” In fact, I NEED to be there. More all the time. Maybe it’s a function of age, I don’t know, but I need my community and I desperately need to be with Jesus.

 

[Moore11]

Even the Church agrees that the baptism he is speaking of is in fact the baptism in the spirit. The baptism in water helps to achieve graces (I am almost certain).

Eating His flesh and drinking His blood helps give life on earth (where we are dead in a sense). Is this a false understanding?

Uh oh.

I have a problem with this.

Starting off this argument with this phrase

Even the Church agrees

Shows a wrong orientation to your point.
Even the Church? as if the Church is some crazy rigid wacko institution and EVEN it says this. No. To a Catholic it should never be EVEN the Church. It should be THE Church says this…

When the Church talks of extra means of salvation i,e. no baptisms and no sacraments and no Christianity, She has never said this has EVER happened. The Church say this MAY happen. not that it ever has or that it ever will. There are no Saints that fit this description and saints are the only thing the Church pronounces on for the residence of an eternal soul.

To look at the sacraments as a mere “help” is not to understand them completely.

Again I go back to the analogy of the moon. Science might say you MAY get tot the moon without a spaceship. We dont know of how that might be but just that it MAY be possible. So, it is silly to go around telling people that a spaceship is just a mere “help” to get to the moon and that it is entirely possible and maybe even common to go to the moon without a spaceship.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

What is the use of going to confession if one does not intend to go to Church on Sunday? Also without the sacraments one will not obtain eternal life. I am reminded of the parable of Jesus about the man invited to the wedding but not wearing a proper dress. Or the five foolish virgins who came to the wedding late because they did not get enough oil.

As Christians we do not have a menu to choose what suits us and what doesn’t. You are either for God all the way or not. It is our choice.

If there is no priest available to confess to do you think you can not confess? I am not saying that confession to priests is wrong, I just don’t think you would be in hell simply for not confessing to a priest. For instance, I do not think all Baptists are going to hell.

Do you think if a Church partaking in the sacraments was unavailable to you, that you would be unable to obtain eternal life?

You do have a valid point though.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Uh oh.

I have a problem with this.

Starting off this argument with this phrase

Shows a wrong orientation to your point.
Even the Church? as if the Church is some crazy rigid wacko institution and EVEN it says this. No. To a Catholic it should never be EVEN the Church. It should be THE Church says this…

When the Church talks of extra means of salvation i,e. no baptisms and no sacraments and no Christianity, She has never said this has EVER happened. The Church say this MAY happen. not that it ever has or that it ever will. There are no Saints that fit this description and saints are the only thing the Church pronounces on for the residence of an eternal soul.

To look at the sacraments as a mere “help” is not to understand them completely.

Again I go back to the analogy of the moon. Science might say you MAY get tot the moon without a spaceship. We dont know of how that might be but just that it MAY be possible. So, it is silly to go around telling people that a spaceship is just a mere “help” to get to the moon and that it is entirely possible and maybe even common to go to the moon without a spaceship.

We have already established that the Church agrees with other denominations that Baptism of Desire is possible. You just cannot confirm that it happened. If you are confessing your sins and trying to live according to God’s word, you will not go to hell for not being baptized in water (from my understanding of our Lord). Furthermore, when I say even the church it is meant as if to say “even Michael Jordan will tell you to follow through on your jump shot.”(if you were arguing with someone over that) That is an analogy and not meant to trivialize the situation. words are misleading

They are not a “mere” help. They are a help. I did not specify how big of a help but I did not clarify either.

Baptism of Desire or baptism in spirit is definitely real. Therefore you can get to the moon by other means than a space ship in your analogy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I guess I’m checking out of this thread. I have an answer but it is from the Eastern point of view and we’re in the TC forum. But I must say before I go that FaithInTheSon’s understanding of the place of Liturgy in our salvation is wrong. While there are certainly people who can be saved without attending one Liturgy their entire lives, those of us who are Catholics must attend. As Christ said, to those who are given more, more will be expected. As the workers in the vineyard, we have come as workers earlier thus we need to put in a complete day’s work compared to the workers who came in much later. Though we receive the same wages, more work is expected from us. That is what we agreed to.