Sunday Mass Obligation

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ConstantineTG said:
I guess I’m checking out of this thread. I have an answer but it is from the Eastern point of view and we’re in the TC forum. But I must say before I go that FaithInTheSon’s understanding of the place of Liturgy in our salvation is wrong. While there are certainly people who can be saved without attending one Liturgy their entire lives, those of us who are Catholics must attend. As Christ said, to those who are given more, more will be expected. As the workers in the vineyard, we have come as workers earlier thus we need to put in a complete day’s work compared to the workers who came in much later. Though we receive the same wages, more work is expected from us. That is what we agreed to.
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I didn’t realize I said Catholics don’t have to go to mass. I said if you miss you have to confess it.
 
The_Wizard said:
The only things that matter are a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and LOVE.
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Right. And what exactly is such a LOVE ? Some kind of feeling ? Maybe the Bible could give us a definition ? Looking for it, I found it:
“For this is the love for God: that we keep His commandments”. (1 John 5:3).
 
“even the Church agrees” is like saying “even a lawyer will tell you that stealing is a crime.”
 
FaithInTheSon said:
We have already established that the Church agrees with other denominations that Baptism of Desire is possible. You just cannot confirm that it happened. If you are confessing your sins and trying to live according to God’s word, you will not go to hell for not being baptized in water (from my understanding of our Lord).

They are not a “mere” help. They are a help. I did not specify how big of a help but I did not clarify either.

Baptism of Desire or baptism in spirit is definitely real. Therefore you can get to the moon by other means than a space ship in your analogy.
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They are not a “help.” In the Church’s own language they are the “ordinary means” of salvation. Could you please show me where the Church proclaims that “Extra- ordinary” means of salvation has ever happened or even how it could happen?
If you are confessing your sins and trying to live according to God’s word, you will not go to hell for not being baptized in water (from my understanding of our Lord).
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Where are you getting this from? How do you know if one will or will not go to hell as an unbaptized person. By what authority are you claiming this? Because it sure is not the Church’s position.
Baptism is necessary for salvation. That is clear and consistent Church teaching.
Baptism of desire is also taught. But can you please tell me what you think baptism of desire is, when it happens, or if it has ever happened?
We have already established that the Church agrees with other denominations that Baptism of Desire is possible.
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I have no idea what this means. Why are we bringing other denominations in to this? And what credibility would they have anyway. It is not the Church that would agree with this statement but rather the denominations that would agree with the Church. I dont know which denominations you are refering to or even why it would matter. I find the entire statement odd in the context of the discussion. As if agreeing with another denomination somehow lends credibility to the Church? I dont get what you are trying to say:shrug:
perhaps you could show me where we have already established this statement.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
I didn’t realize I said Catholics don’t have to go to mass. I said if you miss you have to confess it.
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nope… If I miss Mass because I was in a car wreck on the way, or if there is no Mass where I live or if I am sick or caring for someone who is sick or many other valid reasons I don not HAVE to go to confession. There is no grave matter, heck, there is no venial matter in some cases either.

You are missing some very basic teaching on this.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
“even the Church agrees” is like saying “even a lawyer will tell you that stealing is a crime.”
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Only proving my point. The Chuch is the Authority to a Catholic not some kind of partial authority like a “lawyer”
We should orient ourselves to that type of thinking.

Stop slandering the Church by comparing her to a lawyer.😃
 
Moore11 said:
They are not a “help.” In the Church’s own language they are the “ordinary means” of salvation. Could you please show me where the Church proclaims that “Extra- ordinary” means of salvation has ever happened or even how it could happen?

Where are you getting this from? How do you know if one will or will not go to hell as an unbaptized person. By what authority are you claiming this? Because it sure is not the Church’s position.
Baptism is necessary for salvation. That is clear and consistent Church teaching.
Baptism of desire is also taught. But can you please tell me what you think baptism of desire is, when it happens, or if it has ever happened?

I have no idea what this means. Why are we bringing other denominations in to this? And what credibility would they have anyway. It is not the Church that would agree with this statement but rather the denominations that would agree with the Church. I dont know which denominations you are refering to or even why it would matter. I find the entire statement odd in the context of the discussion. As if agreeing with another denomination somehow lends credibility to the Church? I dont get what you are trying to say:shrug:
perhaps you could show me where we have already established this statement.
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  1. An ordinary means of salvation is not the only means of salvation. Do you think other denominations go to hell for not partaking in sacraments?
  2. “extra-ordinary” as in other than partaking in sacraments would mean exactly what I said. Those who keep our Lord’s word close to their heart will be saved. Baptism of Desire is real, the Church teaches it and you deny it because you need to see evidence. Sacraments are not necessary for this, but they are very useful.
    Baptism of Desire is when a person shows a contention of sin and shows an intention of doing everything God ordained for salvation. It is a way which the unbaptized share in the universal plan for salvation.
Therefore baptism by water is NOT necessary for salvation yet you tell it to me as doctrine when EVEN THE CHURCH AGREES.
  1. Because it is a protestant argument that baptism occurs only in spirit. I am saying that the Catholic Church says there is a middle ground. Which is true.
 
Moore11 said:
Only proving my point. The Chuch is the Authority to a Catholic not some kind of partial authority like a “lawyer”
We should orient ourselves to that type of thinking.

Stop slandering the Church by comparing her to a lawyer.😃
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Like I said in the michael jordan analogy, I do not say it to trivialize the situation, only to provide an analogy.

But you knew that already, didn’t you?
 
It’s kinda sad but it seems like this thread has degenerated into nick picking on each other instead of dealing with the issue at hand. The views expressed by the so called friend of the OP is held by too many people, Catholic or not and we need to realize that we should be coming up with responses to “I don’t need to go to church to love God or that I just need Jesus and I don’t need to go to church” i think that most all of us who have posted on this thread know and practice going to mass at least on Sunday. We need to move on the apologetic answers to this than try to clobber each other over what words we used. There are too many people that do not see any need at all for attending church (which ever it is) and when we come on CAF to ripe apart simple points and views of each other feeds into the feeling of those who don’t attend anything and don’t want to because of how we are treating each other.
 
Moore11 said:
nope… If I miss Mass because I was in a car wreck on the way, or if there is no Mass where I live or if I am sick or caring for someone who is sick or many other valid reasons I don not HAVE to go to confession. There is no grave matter, heck, there is no venial matter in some cases either.

You are missing some very basic teaching on this.
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Thank you for clarifying then. Do you think I believed I would go to hell if i didn’t go to mass for caring for a sick person and then did not confess it?

Still, I should have clarified.
 
robwar said:
It’s kinda sad but it seems like this thread has degenerated into nick picking on each other instead of dealing with the issue at hand. The views expressed by the so called friend of the OP is held by too many people, Catholic or not and we need to realize that we should be coming up with responses to “I don’t need to go to church to love God or that I just need Jesus and I don’t need to go to church” i think that most all of us who have posted on this thread know and practice going to mass at least on Sunday. We need to move on the apologetic answers to this than try to clobber each other over what words we used. There are too many people that do not see any need at all for attending church (which ever it is) and when we come on CAF to ripe apart simple points and views of each other feeds into the feeling of those who don’t attend anything and don’t want to because of how we are treating each other.
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You are right. However I felt the need to defend myself. That is pride working in me.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
  1. An ordinary means of salvation is not the only means of salvation. Do you think other denominations go to hell for not partaking in sacraments?
  2. “extra-ordinary” as in other than partaking in sacraments would mean exactly what I said. Those who keep our Lord’s word close to their heart will be saved. Baptism of Desire is real, the Church teaches it and you deny it because you need to see evidence. Sacraments are not necessary for this, but they are very useful.
    Baptism of Desire is when a person shows a contention of sin and shows an intention of doing everything God ordained for salvation. It is a way which the unbaptized share in the universal plan for salvation.
Therefore baptism by water is NOT necessary for salvation yet you tell it to me as doctrine when EVEN THE CHURCH AGREES.
  1. Because it is a protestant argument that baptism occurs only in spirit. I am saying that the Catholic Church says there is a middle ground. Which is true.
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We could get WAY off the subject here talking about the salvation of protestants but lets quickly address it and move on.
  1. Again, please define an “exta ordinary means of salvation” Show where it is in scripture or Church teaching. The Church defines that it “may” happen.
    Also, unlike your previous statements I have no authority to declare of think any soul is in hell. Neither do you have the authority to tell me they are not. I do have the right to an opinion that matches the Truth revealed to us by God in his Holy Church. The Church does tell us most importantly how we can gain heaven. I’ll stick with that. If you asked me how to get to Fairbanks Alaska (heaven) and I (the Church) gave you a map then you decided to not follow the roads (sacraments) on the map, I cannot tell you if you are in heaven or hell, only that it is POSSIBLE that you ended up in Fairbanks.
    Some churches may also hand you a map with roads on it but maybe it has incomplete roads or no roads in canada, ETC…
  2. I have stated that the Church teaches in Extra ordinary means. I believe it and hope it for all my loved ones. ( I am the only Catholic in my family) But by no means do I find the means or the “map” for them to be trustworthy enough. I think of the words of Paul, “with fear and trembling I work out my OWN salvation.” I am not guaranteed of my own soul and I am on the road map that the Church has given to me… yeesh.
dealt with above.

Just currious.
Do you find that the idea of people going to hell because they are not Catholic or did not go to Church offends your idea of justice and God himself?

You are on dangerous ground if people are askign how to get to Fairbanks and you just point “north”. And that seems to be what you are saying. In theory you dont need a rocket to to to the moon, in theory Fairbanks is North (Of most locations) but you are arguing that pointing someone 'north" is a good way to get them to Fairbanks. It isnt and it is probably rare.
 
Moore11 said:
We could get WAY off the subject here talking about the salvation of protestants but lets quickly address it and move on.
  1. Again, please define an “exta ordinary means of salvation” Show where it is in scripture or Church teaching. The Church defines that it “may” happen.
    Also, unlike your previous statements I have no authority to declare of think any soul is in hell. Neither do you have the authority to tell me they are not. I do have the right to an opinion that matches the Truth revealed to us by God in his Holy Church. The Church does tell us most importantly how we can gain heaven. I’ll stick with that. If you asked me how to get to Fairbanks Alaska (heaven) and I (the Church) gave you a map then decided to not follow the roads (sacraments) not on the map, I cannot tell you if you are in heaven or hell, only that it is POSSIBLE that you ended up in Fairbanks.
    Some churches may also hand you a map with roads on it but maybe it has incomplete roads or no roads in canada, ETC…
  2. I have stated that the Church teaches in Extra ordinary means. I believe it and hope it for all my loved ones. ( I am the only Catholic in my family) But by no means do I find the means or the “map” for them to be trustworthy enough. I think of the words of Paul, “with fear and trembling I work out my OWN salvation.” I am not guaranteed of my own soul and I am on the road map that the Church has given to me… yeesh.
dealt with above.

Just currious.
Do you find that the idea of people going to hell because they are not Catholic or did not go to Church offends your idea of justice and God himself?

You are on dangerous ground if people are askign how to get to Fairbanks and you just point “north”. And that seems to be what you are saying. In theory you dont need a rocket to to to the moon, in theory Fairbanks is North (Of most locations) but you are arguing that pointing someone 'north" is a good way to get them to Fairbanks. it isnt is is probably rare.
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This depends on your definition of Church. If you mean “the Church” then I know you don’t have to go to the Catholic Church to obtain salvation. However, I agree with the Catholic Church on most things that is why I am Catholic. I don’t agree because I was told, I agree because I reached the same conclusions.
I also believe Satan has infiltrated the Church in more than one way. He probably always has been.

Your analogy is valid for the most point. I won’t try to poke holes in it because I actually like it. I do not, and will not ever, believe Baptism by Desire is rare though.

EDIT: It is all over the scripture. Have you read the Gospel lately? You do not need the Church to tell you what your Lord clearly has.
 
FaithInTheSon said:
This depends on your definition of Church. If you mean “the Church” then I know you don’t have to go to the Catholic Church to obtain salvation. However, I agree with the Catholic Church on most things that is why I am Catholic. I don’t agree because I was told, I agree because I reached the same conclusions.
I also believe Satan has infiltrated the Church in more than one way. He probably always has been.

Your analogy is valid for the most point. I won’t try to poke holes in it because I actually like it. I do not, and will not ever, believe Baptism by Desire is rare though.

EDIT: It is all over the scripture. Have you read the Gospel lately? You do not need the Church to tell you what your Lord clearly has.
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On things like BBD being rare we as Catholics can certainly disagree. We can also disagree on if anyone who is not Catholic will be saved. We only have to agree on the Church’s pronouncement that it is POSSSIBLE and I think we do.

I think we can move on.

I have read the scriptures many times. Perhaps you could cite something to clarify what you are talking about? Just saying it es everywhere is not good enough.
 
The_Wizard said:
Why does the Catholic Church make not going to mass on Sunday a mortal sin?

This question may have been answer before but my search didn’t bring up an answer that I found met the problem I am running into. I have a freind who is a “sometimes” Catholic (complex story). He has what I call “simple faith”. The only things that matter are a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and LOVE. As an example, if questioned about the importance of the virgin birth his reply is “why do I need to care about it?”. He feels that The Church making not going to mass on Sunday a mortal sin is reverting back to “THE LAW” and Jesus did away with “THE LAW” and replaced it with LOVE. And if we really had a relationship with Jesus we would not need to be “FORCED” to go to mass because we would be filled with the Holy Spirit and be “perfect” in Christ and go out of LOVE. So The Church would not need to hang the sword of mortal sin over our heads and FORCE us to go to mass on Sunday. SO, why does The Church hand the sword over our heads?
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It is not a hanging sword, it is Love. It is Love to have an expectation (law) and recognize the consequences of ignoring the expectation (sin).
Its important to remember:
the Church does not invent the reality of mortal sin because it enjoys power or wants to make people feel guilty… it recognizes what sin is and proposes it for our belief and correction. Separation from God (sin) is a bad thing, the disciplines of the Church are merely recognizing a reality. The disciplines are not some arbitrary and mean spirited rule.

Giving a half glance at Mass attendance is minimalist faith. Marriage is a good analogy:
You live in relationship with your wife. A relationship of Love has responsibilities and sacrifces. It has observances and rituals. You would not live in a marriage and never come to the dinner table with your wife would you? That would put you outside the good graces of your wife.

You could probably point to your marriage as a contract and say “sitting at the table and talking to you is not in the rules anywhere”. But your wife has expectations and if you are going to just do the minimum, what does that tell your wife? It says, “I am not THAT interested in you. I know you want my full attention at dinner, but I think I can worship you by watching the football game instead. You will not miss mea bit”. That would cause separation in your relationship, -sin-.

Separation from God is a grave matter, God is THE relationship in our lives. That is what the Church is recognizing.
 
robwar said:
It’s kinda sad but it seems like this thread has degenerated into nick picking on each other instead of dealing with the issue at hand. The views expressed by the so called friend of the OP is held by too many people, Catholic or not and we need to realize that we should be coming up with responses to “I don’t need to go to church to love God or that I just need Jesus and I don’t need to go to church” i think that most all of us who have posted on this thread know and practice going to mass at least on Sunday.
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As the OP I agree with Robwar! Stay on the orginal subject! But I have to disagree with Robwar. It isn’t about “I don’t need to go to church to love God or that I just need Jesus and I don’t need to go to church”. It is about why The Church makes it a mortal sin not to go to mass on Sunday! Why not just suggest it would be nice if you came to mass on Sunday. If you don’t no big deal. My friend see The Church saying you have to go to mass on Sunday or else as “works of THE LAW.”
 
The_Wizard said:
As the OP I agree with Robwar! Stay on the orginal subject! But I have to disagree with Robwar. It isn’t about “I don’t need to go to church to love God or that I just need Jesus and I don’t need to go to church”. It is about why The Church makes it a mortal sin not to go to mass on Sunday! Why not just suggest it would be nice if you came to mass on Sunday. If you don’t no big deal. My friend see The Church saying you have to go to mass on Sunday or else as “works of THE LAW.”
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Nitpicking here.

I agree with that approach and find it to be helpful.

However this one little thing
If you don’t no big deal.
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Bothers me.

It is a big deal, possible the biggest deal of all. Eternity. While we may not need to always beat someone over the head with that fact. Telling someone it is no big deal is not only wrong but it could lead them to worse things. It also shoots your own argument in the foot. If it is no big deal then I dont have to go. It is the biggest deal, it is the sacrifice of our Lord and we are to attend out of his request. If that is no big deal then why are we even worshiping God at all?

If your friend was out on bail and was supposed to make a court date would you tell him, I’d like you to go but it is no big deal?
 
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