Suppose the head or leader of your church decided that the Pope is right -

[JRKH]

In the context of this discussion, we are speculating what would happen if a pastor in (say my church) announced that he now believes the Pope (and hence all of RCC doctrine) “is correct after all”. This would be basically the pastor saying that much of what we believe is incorrect. So, we are not talking about some small doctrinal issue like “how many angles can dance on a the head of a pin?” We could debate that question all day and disagreement in the end will not change what we believe in any real sense. We are talking about large issues here.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we, the people in the pews have a responsibility to study and know the Scriptures. In addition, we should know our doctrine. So, if the pastor on Sunday morning expounds on a doctrine and is teaching that which is incorrect, it would certainly be noticed more than one person. Everyone at one time or another will ask the pastor what he ment by a comment on a scripture verse or something to that effect. You ask pastor the question, listen to the answer and then act accordingly. Sometimes I have to go back and really dig into the scriptures to find out what is being taught. I have to be satisfied that it is sound teaching although, as mentioned, I don’t have to agree with pastor on 100% of every thing, but we do have to have agreement on the basics of the faith. So of course a chance to explain is given and we take it from there.

Even in a small church like the one I belong to, we only have 1 paid staff member and that is our pastor. The decons and elders are lay persons. The Bible in 1 Timothy and Titus lays out the qualifications for these offices. It is assumed that the persons holding these positions meet the requirements and take the responsibility seriously. They would take a leading role if the pastor went off the reservation so to speak but the final decision would rest with the membership. It is not in any way shape or form a game of “got ya”. I have not personally seen a pastor removed from office for this issue, but I have seen a pastor resign a post because he changed his view on a major doctrine.

Not sure if this is the answer you are looking for or not. Hopefully though it gives you some idea how it works. I think you looking for something that doesn’t exist in a church like mine, that is inerrant creeds or statement of faith. Only the Bible is inerrant. I personally find no theological fault with the Apostles creed and this is I believe the position of many Roman Catholics. But do we place that creed on a par with the Bible? I know I don’t. And yet here is one of the flaws (in my opinion) with the theology of the RCC. If you make the claim the the Apostles Creed is an early statement of faith but try to justify things like IC or the office of Pope, you have to look beyond the creed itself. Catholics (I think) take the statement in that creed …I believe in the Catholic Church to find any kind of justification for these doctrines. But that is a whole other discussion for another day.

Take care,
Jom

Your answer is quite adequate. Thank you. I had started a thread some time back where I asked NCC’s how they comply with the “Tell it To The Church” passage. it was quite interesting and amazingly charitable. If you are interested ** It is here**The upshot of the thread was that virtually every denomination uses the same basic model that the RCC does in that disagreements are not placed before the entire congregation, but rather dealt with by elders and pastors etc. Granted you say above that the final decision rests with the congregation, and that might be workable in a very small church, but I’m sure you’ll agree that such a system would be impracticable in a large denomination dealing with a major issue(s) of doctrine.
The only difference between the Protestant small m magisterium and the Catholic large M Magisterium is there reach. The Magisterium effects every Catholic Parish worldwide while the Protestant magisterium effects only the local community, and this is a weakness in so far as remaining in the Christian unity of “Being of One Mind” that Both Christ and St Paul Prayed for.

Peace
James

 

[cheese_sdc]

• that catholicism does indeed contain the fullness of truth, and let’s suppose the leader of your church declared that while individuals in the congregation (you) may not fully understand everything within the catholic church or it’s mysteries, it is non the less true, would you convert to catholicism, and if not, why not?

This is a non-issue, as I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

 

[Jon_Hus]

Your answer is quite adequate. Thank you. …Peace
James

My pleasure James

Jon

 

[jake23]

It is amazing how so many can overlook the big picture of things! Life is bigger than just scripture! There where christian rituals, teachings, and authorities before the Bible was put on paper! Not everthing was written on a paper since the poeple of this time embraced scripture and ritual. The Bible is (name removed by moderator)serations of truth’s and authorities of God as the rituals and teachings that where handed down from Christ to the apostles are truth’s and authorities of God. The successions and authorities are obviousely displayed anyways in the Bible when It was voted that matthias would replace Judas.

It baffles me that not only do some protestants neglect to realize that it is the Catholic Bishops that gave us the Bible, but that Luther took out scripture from the original Bible and re-interpreted different verses to fit his personal opinion. These things are out in the open for anyone to learn and yet there are still pridefull self opinionated people out there who will argue that they know what the are talking about and will represent a church that is outside of the holy apostolic church given by Christ

 

[Jon_Hus]

How have you come to the conclusion on what matters are small doctrinal issues and which are big? I haven’t ran across any where in the Bible which lays out for us the major issues and the less than major issues.

God bless you

You mean like the difference between venial or mortal sins? Just kidding.

There are probably many different ways to answer your question which may or may not satisfy you. If a RCC priest were to go off on a tangent, how would this be handled? I would imagine some of the well read folks in the pews would do some research and confront the priest and then if there is no satisfaction contact the Bishop. But my point is you would know something is wrong even if you didn’t know exactly what it is. Not trying to put words in your mouth, but a some point you would have to make a decision based on how important this issue in question is. You are not going to jump off a cliff if you want the front door painted green and the priest insists it should be orange, if you know what I mean. But temper this with the knowledge that in my church, we take doctrine seriously.

I guess though at the end of the day, in my camp, we strive to be mature, spirit filled and well versed Christians and act accordingly.

yours truly,
Jon

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You mean like the difference between venial or mortal sins? Just kidding.

There are probably many different ways to answer your question which may or may not satisfy you. If a RCC priest were to go off on a tangent, how would this be handled? I would imagine some of the well read folks in the pews would do some research and confront the priest and then if there is no satisfaction contact the Bishop. But my point is you would know something is wrong even if you didn’t know exactly what it is. Not trying to put words in your mouth, but a some point you would have to make a decision based on how important this issue in question is. You are not going to jump off a cliff if you want the front door painted green and the priest insists it should be orange, if you know what I mean. But temper this with the knowledge that in my church, we take doctrine seriously.

I guess though at the end of the day, in my camp, we strive to be mature, spirit filled and well versed Christians and act accordingly.

yours truly,
Jon

Jon I was just curious who it was that is deciding when a issue is major or not. It appears since I was not shown in the Bible which issues are major and minor that it is you that is the deciding factor. What if someone in your congregation does not agree with you on what is major and what is minor?

God bless you

 

[greggy53]

It is amazing how so many can overlook the big picture of things! Life is bigger than just scripture! There where christian rituals, teachings, and authorities before the Bible was put on paper! Not everthing was written on a paper since the poeple of this time embraced scripture and ritual. The Bible is (name removed by moderator)serations of truth’s and authorities of God as the rituals and teachings that where handed down from Christ to the apostles are truth’s and authorities of God. The successions and authorities are obviousely displayed anyways in the Bible when It was voted that matthias would replace Judas.

It baffles me that not only do some protestants neglect to realize that it is the Catholic Bishops that gave us the Bible, but that Luther took out scripture from the original Bible and re-interpreted different verses to fit his personal opinion. These things are out in the open for anyone to learn and yet there are still pridefull self opinionated people out there who will argue that they know what the are talking about and will represent a church that is outside of the holy apostolic church given by Christ

The Protestant Churches have only two things to lean on. The Bible, and how wrong they think the Catholics are. They haven’t the history or apostolic traditions we have, so it’s hard for us Catholics to understand why they can never admit the Bible says what it plainly says. If they are wrong about the Bible, the jig is up, and the Catholics are right after all.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Hold the phone. Talk about pulling verses out of context as a proof text. Romans 15:14 proves that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith? How about some Official Church Teaching on that exegesis?

What about the very next verses?

Romans 15:15, 16 - But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Why would a Church that was just spoken of as having the fullness of the Truth have to be boldly reminded of anything?

Haydock has no remark on this verse.

Here (newadvent.org/fathers/210229.htm) is St. John Chrysostom’s Homily on that verse. St. John clearly points to this verse as speaking to the particular Christians in Rome at the time and has nothing to do with an overall prophetic message that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth.

From Sacra Pagina’s Interpretation of Rom 15:14 - (see attached thumbnail)

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6484&d=1251899497

If the Catholic Church points to this passage as Scriptural proof that the Catholic Church posses the fullness of the truth, I sure would like to see that.

On several occasions the non-Catholic posts Scriptures to back up their arguments the Catholic antagonist retort is that there is no private interpretation and the Church is the official interpreter of Scripture – then the Catholic when posting Scripture to prove their point must back it up by some sort Church document showing that the poster is using the verse in question correctly according to Catholic teaching.

There is no way this verse in Romans points to the Catholic Church having the fullness of the truth. Even a simpleton like me can see that.

Might be best to respond to this with a separate thread. I’ll be posting soon. Hope to see ya there!

God bless.

 

[Jon_Hus]

Jon I was just curious who it was that is deciding when a issue is major or not. It appears since I was not shown in the Bible which issues are major and minor that it is you that is the deciding factor. What if someone in your congregation does not agree with you on what is major and what is minor?

God bless you

Let me clarify one thing, I’m not a pastor nor do I hold any church office. I’m just a simple man in the pew. As a matter of fact, I’m not a member of the church I attend however I’m a member of the church praise team (I play in the praise band) and I’m given the honor of offering thanks and testimony from time to time. So, for that reason, I would not consider it my place to take matters of disclipline into my own hands although I might express concern to one of the elders if I had a concern.

At this point you are probably asking yourself why I’m not a member of the church I attend. Fair question. We moved to our present location in November of 2004. Our new home is 150 miles from our old place. We spent in excess of 3 years looking for a place to call home. It has not been an easy task. The church I attend is 24 miles commute each way for us. The pastor by sheer coincidence was the assistant pastor years ago of our old church. I have know this man since 1989. I consider him to be not only my pastor but a personal friend. I know his theology and he knows mine in detail and I can say we have minor (very minor) areas of difference. This does not bother either of us as we can both learn from each other, we enjoy each others company very much, when we are together our conversation is mainly on the topic of the Bible and there is no since of superiority between us. I intend to join at some point in the future.

As for what is major and what is minor, that is intrusted to the guidence of the Holy Spirit by much prayer and Bible study on the particular issue at hand. I understand that the RCC has all manor is manuals and guide books on what is acceptable and what is not but still, it can not be claimed by the RCC that all of the clergy is in lock step with Rome or that error doesn’t go unpunished.This all goes to the heart of the differences between how Catholic and Protestants define the church. Catholics, at the end of the day define the church as the clergy. Protestants define the church as the individual body of believers in Christ. For this reason, arguements in the RCC are settled by the statement “the church teaches…”, arguements in protestant churches are settled “the Bible teaches…”

One last comment, I don’t have the expectation that any church is perfect or 100% error free. I do have the Bible which I consider the final authority of the faith. I do not feel that it is imperitive that everyone believe the same as I do but I want to be in fellowship with like minded individuals who are trusting in Christ and in Him alone. Hope this answers your concerns. I’m enjoying this thread and appreciate your interest and candor.

have a great day,
Jon

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

As for what is major and what is minor, that is intrusted to the guidence of the Holy Spirit by much prayer and Bible study on the particular issue at hand.

I understand but there is no where in the Bible which states what issues are major or minor. No where in the Bible does it say what beliefs are okay to have disagreements on. You stated:

we are not talking about some small doctrinal issue

Meaning that if your pastor decided that Catholicism was true then he would be accepting differences in major doctrines. Your first post in this thread was an answer to allischalmers:
Jon Hus:

allischalmers:

I think that he would be out of our church in about two seconds

It would not take us that long. Any longer than 3 seconds though, and then I leave and hope that I don’t get trampled at the door.

How can your congregation decide to “out him” of your Church if there is no agreement on what a major or minor issue it? Or is there an agreement? In which case I have to ask how this agreement came about? Since it is not in the Bible, was it your pastor who decided? If it was your pastor, how can you go with him on what the major or minor issues are and now all the sudden “out him” of your congregation because he decides that Catholicism is true?

This all goes to the heart of the differences between how Catholic and Protestants define the church.

It is tough to generalize. Yes in general there is a difference of opinion between Catholics and Protestant but I would say that Lutherans and Anglicans both have a more Catholic viewpoint of Church than a Baptist or non-Denominational do.

Catholics, at the end of the day define the church as the clergy.

I have to, respectfully, disagree with you here Jon. Catholics believe that the Church is the Body of Christ which is both visible and spiritual. Here is what the Catechism has to say:

The Church - both visible and spiritual

771 “The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope, and charity, as a visible organization through which he communicates truth and grace to all men.” The Church is at the same time:

• a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;

• the visible society and the spiritual community;

• the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches."

These dimensions together constitute “one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element”:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p1.htm#I

Protestants define the church as the individual body of believers in Christ.

I already mentioned Lutherans and Anglicans. I believe their view of Church goes much deeper than this and is more in line with the Catholic view, however the Catholic Church also teaches this, in that it is not and either/or situation but a both/and. Both visible and spiritual:

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: “In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification.” This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which “really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another.”

791 …The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: “From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.” Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm#II

One last comment, I don’t have the expectation that any church is perfect or 100% error free.

So why the need to out a pastor within 3 seconds or you would be out the door?

I do have the Bible which I consider the final authority of the faith.

I understand that, but in this case it does not tell us what issues are minor, so why do you consider the issues with Catholicism major?

I do not feel that it is imperitive that everyone believe the same as I do but I want to be in fellowship with like minded individuals who are trusting in Christ and in Him alone.

If your Pastor believed that Catholicism was true he would be trusting in Christ alone. So again why the need to “out him” with in 3 seconds?

God bless you Jon

 

[Jon_Hus]

Roman_Catholic,

I have tried to answer you questions and concerns in an honest and concise manner. I have no expectation that anything I write will change your mind or influence you in any way. That is not my purpose anyway. What you are now asking in the form of statements is basically a rehash of the entire protestant reformation. An interesting subject but beyond the scope of this discussion.

You have every right to believe whatever you want. I reserve that same right for myself. I do not believe that my beliefs are anymore irrational than yours. The discussion however has gone from an inquiry into procedures to a full blown hearing of what-if’s covering every possible scenerio. I humbly ask that you re-think your methods of inquiry. If you want to get the last word in, by all means do so but be advised that you are not as clever as you think you are. I don’t mean to sound harsh or come across as mean spirited but I know full well what the CCC has to say about the make-up of the church. It is not an understatement for me to claim that I have agonized over this issue for years. My study includes a full hearing of the church fathers (several years of constant reading of tens of thousands of pages) and indebth study of church history and doctrinal history from both catholic and non-catholic sources. This I do not care to debate right now as I have better things to do with my time.

I seriously doubt that you or anyone else on this forum has read anything of the fathers (with the possible exception of Augistine) except for the references to them in the CCC. If I’m mistaken, please accept my appology and then lets take this discussion up a few notches and get right to the nub. At that point you would have my total undivided attention and interest. But I’m not holding my breath as I have not seen anyone on this forum show that they have more than the most rudimentary knowledge or understanding of doctrinal history and development.

yours truly,
Jon

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Jon I am not sure how our conversation turned into what your posts suggests?

I have no expectation that anything I write will change your mind or influence you in any way.

Change my mind and influence me? I asked a question. I wasn’t looking for you to change my mind on anything, just to support your posts and answer my question.

What you are now asking in the form of statements is basically a rehash of the entire protestant reformation. An interesting subject but beyond the scope of this discussion.

I didn’t believe so. I believed it fell within the scope of your statements that you made on this thread. Particularly you saying that these aren’t “small doctrinal issues” and you not being able to show me in the Bible where the major and minor issues are out lined. I was curious how you came about determining what issues are major and minor and then, since they are not based on the Bible, why a pastor would be outed from your Church especially with you saying that you believe that no Church is 100% perfect. I was hoping that it wasn’t simply a dislike of anything Catholic. Since I didn’t wish to call into question your motives or sincerity I figured I would ask you instead. Something which was not granted to me in return.

reserve that same right for myself. I do not believe that my beliefs are anymore irrational than yours.

When did I ever say your beliefs were irrational? All I have asked is for you to clarify on those beliefs and the statements you made regarding them. Not that they are irrational.

I humbly ask that you re-think your methods of inquiry.

What? I asked a question.

If you want to get the last word in, by all means do so but be advised that you are not as clever as you think you are.

Again, I am not sure what you are talking about Jon? If I am not as clever as I think I am is that not all the better reason to ask questions? To enlighten my bewildered little mind?

I don’t mean to sound harsh or come across as mean spirited

Well you completely failed in this Jon, I am sorry.

I seriously doubt that you or anyone else on this forum has read anything of the fathers (with the possible exception of Augistine) except for the references to them in the CCC.

Well you would be wrong Jon. I am at a total loss as to how our conversation turned you to such a defensive stance in that you are questioning my motives, my sincerity and intelligence. I have done a great deal of reading but this doesn’t mean I have all the answers. Since I don’t have all the answers that means I have questions.

If I’m mistaken, please accept my appology and then lets take this discussion up a few notches and get right to the nub. At that point you would have my total undivided attention and interest.

No Jon that won’t be necessary. I have had all the conversation with you that I would care for.

God bless you