Supreme Court Ruling on Health Care

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I hate it when people apply modern political theory to interpretations of scripture to justify the separation of church and state. That whole line of reasoning is a product of the Protestant Reformation. Since I’m a Catholic and know my Church history - that doesn’t really work with me.

The Catholic Church has always viewed government as a vehicle for doing God’s work on earth. Jesus said pay your taxes. He also said we should pray to God to “give us this day our daily bread”. Well, who distributed “daily bread” to the people of Rome? That would be the Roman government. Jesus knew this. I don’t recall any scriptures where he argues against this arrangement. Do you think he meant we should expect it fall down like manna from heaven?
Hmm… You seem to have a different view on that scripture than JPII.
By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need…
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

If memory serves correctly, JP II and the Church in general opposed Communism.

I have a tough time finding a late Republic/Early Empire Roman policy of distributing bread daily. Can you provide a source? I always thought it referred to to Eucharistic transubstantiation.
 
I hate it when people apply modern political theory to interpretations of scripture to justify the separation of church and state. That whole line of reasoning is a product of the Protestant Reformation. Since I’m a Catholic and know my Church history - that doesn’t really work with me.

The** Catholic Church has always viewed government as a vehicle for doing God’s work on earth. Jesus said pay your taxes. He also said we should pray to God to “give us this day our daily bread”. Well, who distributed “daily bread” to the people of Rome? That would be the Roman government**. Jesus knew this. I don’t recall any scriptures where he argues against this arrangement. Do you think he meant we should expect it fall down like manna from heaven? .
Are you kidding? Where on earth did you hear this bit of fiction? The Roman Government was not into social services. It was military based and the point was to keep its vassals working to MAKE their own bread plus enough to pay taxes…for the military presence, the nice robes the Romans wore, the military gear, the building of roads to new lands for conquering.

So you think Pontius Pilate had a breadline and he passed out bread? PUH-LEASE. Yes Jesus said render unto Caesar what is his but he sure didn’t say give your money to Caesar to pass out to others.

As I recall Catholic Social Teaching, while it does not prevent a partnership format where the Church works with government to provide social services, the Church is an independent organization and will not bow to Caesar when Caesar insists we provide services against our Church’s teachings. Further if you read Pope Benedict’s earliest encyclical it focused on our need to provide the love of Christ, directly if possible, not send dollars to Uncle Sam or Parliament to dole out.

Wow I am stunned by this interpretation and think I must have missed something significant in my own Catechism.

Lisa
 
Follow the money. Doctor’s will be leaving in droves. The idea that bureaucrats could rush through an overhaul of 1/6th of the economy and make it work is foolishness. We’ve traded** the best healthcare** for mediocre or worse healthcare and rampant bureaucratic cronyism, corruption which follows inevitably on large Utopian schemes.
`

Foolishness? The best healthcare in the world was only available to those who could afford it. Change was needed, and quite frankly, the Republicans had as much opportunity to take action as anyone else. They failed. 🤷

The rest of your declaration, is premature to say the least.

ATB
 
Is it moral for the government to provide services with money that does not exist?
U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 06 Jul 2012 at 03:39:46 PM GMT is:
$15,891,793,986,916
The estimated population of the United States is 313,082,919
so each citizen’s share of this debt is $50,759.06.
The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$3.95 billion per day since September 28, 2007!
brillig.com/debt_clock/
 
*Hi Lisa, nice to hear from you again. Reference your, “Surgery payment by Medicare 1988 $5181.00”. What can I say. The eighties were a time of excesses.🤷

Otherwise, from what I’ve seen of medicare payments. They have a fee schedule that they go by. If the charge is considered allowable. They’ll generally pay 80 percent of the allowable fee. My Dental insurance does the same thing. (Sadly, they don’t pay 80% though.)

As I’m sure you, as someone in the business, knows. Many organizations have fee schedules. Workers comp in most states is another example. So in short. It’s not revolutionary, it’s how things are done. I’ve not heard of any hospitals, or ambulance companies going out of business for it. Quite the opposite in fact. If they did not have medicare payments coming in, in a timely fashion. Then, they would go out of business.;)*

I’m sure you know this as well. Much in the medical profession has changed between 1988 and 2012. In general, procedures are much less invasive. Many surgeries are handled on an “out patient” basis. I would have to wonder about a physician who is performing the very same procedure today. That he did in 1988. Besides that, Surgeon/physician incomes rose drastically in the eighties. There was the advent of elective surguries. Most of which, I don’t believe deserve medicare reimbursment in the first place. But, they drove up costs non-the-less. Without some serious innovation on the part of our government. We might have seen physician fees cut entirely from medicare. GW, and his administration actually considered this. Where do you suppose we would be now, if they had?

ATB
Mickey you are woefully ignorant of medical finances and progress in medical care. Yes Medicare has a fee schedule and that was precisely what I referred to. Our specialty clinic has a procedure for which our charge is $5900. Now maybe you dismiss the talent it takes to open up a person, fix what’s wrong, close him back up again and then care for him for 90 days following the surgery. Oh you didn’t realize that when we do a surgery there is a “global period” where our care is covered as a part of the surgical payment. Now just in case you actually have respect for a doctor who went to school for 20+ years and think his lifesaving skills are worth paying for, how much of that $5900 do you think he gets from Medicare? That’s right it’s limited to $1785 quoted previously. IOW Medicare sets the fees that a doctor can make for doing various procedures. Realize Medicare sets this fee based on a formula that doesn’t reflect the increased cost of providing the care and realize further that it’s stagnant if not being reduced.

If you haven’t heard of hospitals or doctors going out of business because of low reimbursement rates, you haven’t been paying attention. Or an alternative is to turn down these patients. That is the grand fallacy of the Obamacare plan. Doctors don’t have to take those patients and there are fewer and fewer who will accept Medicare and Medicaid. So you can have that nice Medicare card or the Obamacare card but the doctor doesn’t have to see you. In case you’ve been asleep for the past century, slavery has been against the law for a while.

You are correct that technology has increased greatly. For example many patients’ heart disease is being treated with stents and angioplasty rather than surgery. OTOH I suspect not too many people think we ought to be doing heart surgery on an outpatient basis! I guess you must be a medical professional to have such knowledge of this right?

But better to be wrong than in doubt!

Lisa
 
I hate it when people apply modern political theory to interpretations of scripture to justify the separation of church and state. That whole line of reasoning is a product of the Protestant Reformation. Since I’m a Catholic and know my Church history - that doesn’t really work with me.
What? You subtly are saying that I’m not Catholic because I don’t agree with you? Come on.
The Catholic Church has always viewed government as a vehicle for doing God’s work on earth. Jesus said pay your taxes. He also said we should pray to God to “give us this day our daily bread”. Well, who distributed “daily bread” to the people of Rome? That would be the Roman government. Jesus knew this. I don’t recall any scriptures where he argues against this arrangement. Do you think he meant we should expect it fall down like manna from heaven?
In the early Church they pooled their money together and distributed to each according to his/her need. They did not give it to the Romans to distribute. The admonition to give alms was not an admonition to give money to the government to distribute. I’m sorry. but your argument is simply not true. As a matter of fact, in modern times Catholic Charities gets money from the government (in contracts) to distribute alms, not the other way around.
If you are not getting insurance benefits from your employer and have to buy insurance on your own, then I can see how a person making $91,000 a year with a family of four would be hard pressed to pay for it without help. Having that albatross lifted would certainly free people up to spend more money in other areas of the economy, which is exactly what we need to get it moving again.
Putting a stone of taxes around other people’s necks to take the “albatross” of insurance premiums off of others’ necks is justified? Really? This is getting more absurd as it goes on.

Where do you think government largess comes from? Is it like manna from heaven?
 
Actually Rome did have a breadline. It also had government-subsidized sports venues, subsidized education, finally they offered free bread, free oil, free pork, free wine, free education, free corn, free salt (which was highly expensive at the time), and of course did I mention free games?

Well it sounded great but it cost a fortune and it forced Rome to tax their rich into oblivion when that ran out of steam, they devalued their coin into obscurity causing massive inflation, when that no longer worked, they simply taxed people by their “stuff” and enslaved them…by that time the Romans were greeting the Barbarian hordes as Liberators.
 
Mickey you are woefully ignorant of medical finances and progress in medical care. Yes Medicare has a fee schedule and that was precisely what I referred to. Our specialty clinic has a procedure for which our charge is $5900. Now maybe you dismiss the talent it takes to open up a person, fix what’s wrong, close him back up again and then care for him for 90 days following the surgery. Oh you didn’t realize that when we do a surgery there is a “global period” where our care is covered as a part of the surgical payment. Now just in case you actually have respect for a doctor who went to school for 20+ years and think his lifesaving skills are worth paying for, how much of that $5900 do you think he gets from Medicare? That’s right it’s limited to $1785 quoted previously. IOW Medicare sets the fees that a doctor can make for doing various procedures. Realize Medicare sets this fee based on a formula that doesn’t reflect the increased cost of providing the care and realize further that it’s stagnant if not being reduced.

If you haven’t heard of hospitals or doctors going out of business because of low reimbursement rates, you haven’t been paying attention. Or an alternative is to turn down these patients. That is the grand fallacy of the Obamacare plan. Doctors don’t have to take those patients and there are fewer and fewer who will accept Medicare and Medicaid. So you can have that nice Medicare card or the Obamacare card but the doctor doesn’t have to see you. In case you’ve been asleep for the past century, slavery has been against the law for a while.

You are correct that technology has increased greatly. For example many patients’ heart disease is being treated with stents and angioplasty rather than surgery. OTOH I suspect not too many people think we ought to be doing heart surgery on an outpatient basis! I guess you must be a medical professional to have such knowledge of this right?

But better to be wrong than in doubt!

Lisa
Lisa that’s the whole point. Cut reimbursment rates so low, doctors and hospitals are forced to turn away all Medicare/Medicaid patients…then the government can say “Look, Look! At these evil, greedy, heartless doctors and hospitals turning down grandpa because he has Medicare and Medicare unlike the greedy private insurance companies…don’t charge their patients outrageous prices…we need a nationalized health care service like the British have.”

Yep I see those Gutless Commie-Libs pushing it in say 10 years.
 
Didn’t Karl Marx make that argument about the “common good”? The US is based on individual freedom - not the common good.

We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.
Hillary Clinton

Society does not consist of individuals, but expresses the sum of interrelations, the relations within which these individuals stand.

Marx, The Grundrisse (1857)
Karl Marx accurately described the state of the working class under the unfettered capitalism of the second half of the 19th century. Charles Dickens did the same. For a more modern treatment, I recommend Steve Johnson’s book The Ghost Map. He does a fantastic job describing London at the time of the cholera epidemic in 1854. It is both shocking and amazing.

If that is the world you want to return to, then by all means support the extreme right-wing Republican agenda being funded by billionaires who are trying to buy the election. What sort of power and concessions do you think Sheldon Adelson expects to get from the GOP for his 10 million dollar donation to the Koch brothers “Americans for Prosperity” superpack?

[Sheldon Adelson Pledges $10 Million to Koch Brothers Effort](Sheldon Adelson Pledges $10 Million to Koch Brothers Effort)

Follow the money to see where the incentives lie. Seriously, what do you think motivates men who are so wealthy to spend so much money to defeat a moderate liberal like Obama? Pure political power is the only thing they lack.
 
Sure it does,if you are willing to plan ahead,“hurry up and wait” as is so often the case with gov’t programs.:eek:
Romneycare is a government program and nobody in Massachusetts is waiting in line to see a doctor. Go back and read my first post.
 
ObamaTax is not RomneyCare on a federal level. RomneyCare did not create many new taxes, like ObamaTax does. They are two different bills…
“You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to”

They work exactly the same way. In Massachusetts, the penalty for non complying with the Individual Mandate is taken out of your TAX RETURN - just like it is at the Federal level.
 
Follow the money to see where the incentives lie. Seriously, what do you think motivates men who are so wealthy to spend so much money to defeat a moderate liberal like Obama? Pure political power is the only thing they lack.
Follow the money to see where the incentives lie. Seriously, what do you think motivates men who are so wealthy to spend so much money to defeat a moderate like McCain? Pure political power is the only thing they lack.
 
“You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to”

They work exactly the same way. In Massachusetts, the penalty for non complying with the Individual Mandate is taken out of your TAX RETURN - just like it is at the Federal level.
Romney opposed and vetoed a penalty/tax which was overrode by a Democrat legislature which was over 80%
What changes would Romney make to RomneyCare?
Governor Romney is often asked what he would change about RomneyCare, or what he would have done differently. Romney’s first response is “I would re-institute my vetoes.” Many voters don’t realize that Romney vetoed significant portions of the bill in an attempt to control costs and unnecessary regulation. Unfortunately, all of Romney’s vetoes were later overridden by the Massachusetts legislature which was 87% Democrats at the time. Here is a list of provisions that Romney vetoed, or things he would otherwise change:
1 – The item Romney most vigorously opposed was the “Employer Mandate” which required that all businesses with 11 or more employees provide health insurance to those employees. In his view, an employer mandate was an unnecessary burden on businesses in the state. Romney believed that the employer mandate would harm low-profit-margin businesses (such as new or struggling businesses) and that it could reduce wages, or distort employment patterns.
2 – Minimum Coverage Options - Romney wanted a “higher deductible” option of health insurance that would pass the state’s “minimum-coverage” guidelines. Romney wanted to give the citizens of MA the option to buy a bare-bones policy that covered only hospitalization and catastrophic illness. That idea was rejected by the legislature. Instead the legislature mandated benefit-rich insurance plans (also called “gold-plated” insurance plans). “We wanted no mandated benefits,” Romney said in a recent interview. Imagine the additional cost imposed on the state and the individual by mandating these benefit-rich insurance plans.
3 – Romney also objected to the state’s “minimum-coverage guidelines” not only because it required expensive features that only a few people would use but also because some people would morally object to certain provisions such as “unlimited in-vitro fertilization” and abortion. Romney believed that consumers should be free to choose a healthcare plan with the benefits they wanted, not be dictated by the government what features their healthcare plan must contain. (source – No Apology, paperback edition, pg. 194)
4 – Romney vetoed coverage of dental care, and optical care for Medicaid participants. Romney noticed that 60% of employers who offered health insurance didn’t offer dental/optical benefits. Providing dental/optical benefits seemed unfairly generous and extremely costly. Romney estimated that the dental/optical insurance costs for Medicaid patients would add an additional $75 million per year, an exceedingly large amount.
5 – Opt out option - Romney wanted to have a way for people to be able to “opt out” of the insurance mandate if an individual could show that they had sufficient money to pay for catastrophic care. One could opt out of the mandate by posting a bond – essentially a promise to pay for future uninsured health care costs. The principle of being able to opt out of the mandate mattered to Romney. Despite arguing in favor of an opt out option, the Democratic legislature rejected the idea.
6 – Romney wanted to control costs by having everyone, even the poorest of citizens, pay some portion of their premiums for their health insurance. But the current law gives it to the poor absolutely free. Romney also argues that giving healthcare absolutely free to poor citizens creates a strong incentive for people – particularly the unhealthy – to move into the state. Imagine the increased costs “free” healthcare creates for the government. (Additional source – No Apology, paperback edition, pg. 194)
7 – Romney vetoed a medicaid expansion for children that was added to RomneyCare by the Democratic legislature. Romney vetoed the provision due to cost constraints but the veto was also overridden.
8 – Romney vetoed coverage for non-poor legal immigrants called “special status aliens.” This group of individuals were legal immigrants who had come to America with the sponsorship of an individual who agreed to be financially responsible for them. Romney thought the state should take into account the financial status of the sponsor before offering coverage. It is interesting to note that even though the MA legislature initially overturned Romney’s veto, the MA legislature later re-institituted this policy by giving reduced subsidies to legal immigrants as costs for the health care law increased.
9 – In order to increase choice and competition, Romney fought for a plan that would have allowed employees to use their employers funds to buy health insurance on the open market. According to this plan, an employee wouldn’t have been locked in to using their employers health plan. Employees could choose any plan from any insurance company that best fit their needs, and then use their employers funds to help pay for it.
10 – Romney would also have rather provided a tax break for those who have health insurance rather than a tax penalty for those without health insurance. Both would have provided the same mathematical incentive to become insured. (Source, No Apology, pg. 194)
11 – After RomneyCare was passed, Romney’s successor, Governor Patrick, set the state’s share of the premiums above a level Romney thought was affordable. Those who received subsidies on their health insurance, now could rely on the government to pay a bigger portion of their premiums. (source – No Apology, hardback edition, pg. 175)
12 – Gov. Patrick also added an expensive prescription drug benefit after Romney had left the governorship.
13 – Romney also supports the need for patients to provide documentation to insurance companies of prior coverage in order to be insured. There have been reports of people “gaming the system” and not signing up for health insurance until they are sick or the state tax filings are due. A simple way to avoid such a problem is by requiring patients to show evidence of prior coverage.
14 – Emergency Room Visits - In Massachusetts (as in other states), too many people continue to go to the Emergency Room for simple problems that could be easily treated by their family doctor. The problem with going to the ER is that it cost 3-5 times as much for the same care. Romney supports taking steps that encourage people to go to their family doctor first, such as raising the co-payment charge on ER visits in order to dissuade people from using the ER as a way to get primary care. (Source, No Apology 2nd edition)
In summary, Romney fought for a health care system with less regulation, more competition, and less cost to the state, individuals and businesses. It is important to note that all of these modifications to RomneyCare made by his successor and the MA legislature have had a major impact on costs. Were Romney a part of the implementation of the bill, and were his vetoes not over-ridden, the law would be considerably different today, and the state would stand to save a lot of money
 
Karl Marx accurately described the state of the working class under the unfettered capitalism of the second half of the 19th century. Charles Dickens did the same. For a more modern treatment, I recommend Steve Johnson’s book The Ghost Map. He does a fantastic job describing London at the time of the cholera epidemic in 1854. It is both shocking and amazing.
.
That explains a lot.
 
Are you a vet?

I want better than “pretty good” for our veterans. I want the BEST for them. And I have not heard even “pretty good” for VA hospitals.

😦
Of course we want what is best for them!

However, I don’t think it is the quality of care that is the problem, but rather the new claims approval process. Due to improved battlefield medicine, more veterans are surviving serious injuries that would have killed them in the past. The current system wasn’t designed to handle so many cases so there is a backlog getting claims approved.

I heard that there is legislation being proposed to fix this by making it more like the IRS, which assumes you don’t cheat on your taxes, but randomly audits returns just to keep everyone honest. So new claims would be treated as valid and acted upon unless proven otherwise. Sounds reasonable to me.
 
Karl Marx accurately described the state of the working class under the unfettered capitalism of the second half of the 19th century. Charles Dickens did the same. For a more modern treatment, I recommend Steve Johnson’s book The Ghost Map. He does a fantastic job describing London at the time of the cholera epidemic in 1854. It is both shocking and amazing.

If that is the world you want to return to, then by all means support the extreme right-wing Republican agenda being funded by billionaires who are trying to buy the election. What sort of power and concessions do you think Sheldon Adelson expects to get from the GOP for his 10 million dollar donation to the Koch brothers “Americans for Prosperity” superpack?

[Sheldon Adelson Pledges $10 Million to Koch Brothers Effort](http://sheldon Adelson Pledges $10 Million to Koch Brothers Effort)

Follow the money to see where the incentives lie. Seriously, what do you think motivates men who are so wealthy to spend so much money to defeat a moderate liberal like Obama? Pure political power is the only thing they lack.
Why do the signs in the federal parks say “Don’t feed the Animals”?
 
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