Supreme Court Ruling on Health Care

[VikingNormandy]

the government has monopoly on education-disaster

now they have monopoly on health-disgusting

and the doctors most -dont even want this health bill

but politicians are convinced they’re so right -always

 

[LisaA]

Reagan, Bush I and Clinton all made cuts to Medicare.

This is absolutely true, In the late 1980s reimbursement for the four most common Medicare surgeries (heart, cataract & hip) were cut nearly 40%…hence my example of the 1988 rate being $5181 and the 2012 $1783. Most of that decrease happened in the late 80s. Then rates were decreased slightly for the next few years.

The across the board rate cuts that have been pushed along every year WERE used to claim Obamacare would be under a TRILLION dollars. However everyone knew this was a fallacy because the rates have already been cut so much they knew that Medicare providers would flee for the hills. Congress is not stupid and if Mr or Mrs Senior can’t get a doctor he or she represents a very important voting block. Make no mistake, this isn’t for the doctors it’s for the Congress.

Lisa

 

[austenbosten]

This is absolutely true, In the late 1980s reimbursement for the four most common Medicare surgeries (heart, cataract & hip) were cut nearly 40%…hence my example of the 1988 rate being $5181 and the 2012 $1783. Most of that decrease happened in the late 80s. Then rates were decreased slightly for the next few years.

The across the board rate cuts that have been pushed along every year WERE used to claim Obamacare would be under a TRILLION dollars. However everyone knew this was a fallacy because the rates have already been cut so much they knew that Medicare providers would flee for the hills. Congress is not stupid and if Mr or Mrs Senior can’t get a doctor he or she represents a very important voting block. Make no mistake, this isn’t for the doctors it’s for the Congress.

Lisa

I’m just not going to put up a source because I’m dealing with Leftists and they don’t believe in facts anyways. If I can’t make money off of it I don’t do it.

Naturally if were were together in person I would bet the Leftist $50; then pull out the facts; and gladly take his $50 dollars from him and go spend it on something.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Are you a vet?

I want better than “pretty good” for our veterans. I want the BEST for them. And I have not heard even “pretty good” for VA hospitals.

Hi Juliane. I’m a vet. My Father is a vet (disabled). I’ve taken him to the VA countless times. Both Detroit, and Ann Arbor. We are very pleased with the service we recieve. Granted, their hospitals, while newer, are different from the ones visited by the general public. They are well suited to their purpose. When you say the best. I’m afraid thats hard to accomplish. We have, some say, the best healthcare system in the world. But, the care comes at a cost many can’t pay. So, in the end. It actually isn’t very good at all.

ATB

 

[bellasbane]

When doctors leave the medical profession, forcing healthcare rationing, you won’t be so glib about this “victory” for American liberal tyranny.

Are there no doctors in Canada, Great Britain or Germany? According to your reasoning, they must all have fled to the United States, since every other industrialized nation in the world suffers from the tyranny of government run universal health care.

Come on, look around you - look at what the rest of the world is like. Look at the FACTS. Obamacare isn’t even a liberal solution - it is a conservative solution that came out of the Heritage Foundation. It is exactly the same program Mitt Romney put in place in Massachusetts. People from all around the world come to Massachusetts, to places like Boston Children’s Hospital, to see the specialists there. There is no basis to all the fear mongering - we have lots of doctors, excellent service and 98% access for all our citizens. Mitt Romney should be running on his healthcare reform record - not running away from it.

The GOP has gone crazy - chewing up policies they once supported because their base is buying into what they hear from the right-wing propaganda machine. Hate does that to people.

 

[seekerz]

Oh yeah throw down the gauntlet. Okay pal I’ll take you up on your challenge.
**
What the Leftist sees.**

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:21[/BIBLEDRB]

To the Leftist this very narrow take on the verse means that Jesus is basically saying it’s good to pay your taxes. Jesus supports Caesar’s taxes.

Here’s what really happened

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:15-22[/BIBLEDRB]

When you read the context, you realize Jesus was answering to the best of his ability without incarcerating himself by disobeying Caesar’s laws and the same by disobeying Jewish law and God. When Jesus says Render unto Caesars what is his and render unto God what is His…Does Caesar really own anything? The answer is No. All things belong to God the Father for He is the Creator of all things! Genesis 1

So yeah pal I ain’t saying anything about Jesus misleading His followers, I’m saying you need to pick up the Good Book once in awhile and read the whole story instead of plucking verses out to justify your political views.

Jesus was not a politician taking sides with ideologues. He said what He meant and He walked the walk. I don’t see why you’re trying to make this more complicated than it is: give the government what is it’s due and God what is His. If His words were not enough, He paid taxes himself.

What else did He have to do, remain here to speak to you directly?!

 

[PaulinVA]

This is absolutely true, In the late 1980s reimbursement for the four most common Medicare surgeries (heart, cataract & hip) were cut nearly 40%…hence my example of the 1988 rate being $5181 and the 2012 $1783. Most of that decrease happened in the late 80s. Then rates were decreased slightly for the next few years.

This is what you get with the government. Their idea of reducing health costs is to lower medicare reimbursements. Viola! Reduced costs!

Only now the docs can’t survive on the medicare reimbursements and are aligning with large group practices and hospitals, reducing availability of medicare/medicaid services and forcing people to be treated in settings that are more expensive, spending more money.

People who are in stable government jobs who can’t get fired for bad behavior or rewarded for good decisions are not the most innovative thinkers.

I have absolutely nothing against that primary care doc who wants to pay his people well, provide benefits, and take home $150K -$250K for his efforts and his education.

 

[seekerz]

Are there no doctors in Canada, Great Britain or Germany? According to your reasoning, they must all have fled to the United States, since every other industrialized nation in the world suffers from the tyranny of government run universal health care.

Come on, look around you - look at what the rest of the world is like. Look at the FACTS. Obamacare isn’t even a liberal solution - it is a conservative solution that came out of the Heritage Foundation. It is exactly the same program Mitt Romney put in place in Massachusetts. People from all around the world come to Massachusetts, to places like Boston Children’s Hospital, to see the specialists there. There is no basis to all the fear mongering - we have lots of doctors, excellent service and 98% access for all our citizens. Mitt Romney should be running on his healthcare reform record - not running away from it.

The GOP has gone crazy - chewing up policies they once supported because their base is buying into what they hear from the right-wing propaganda machine. Hate does that to people.

 

[SamH]

Are** there no doctors in Canada, Great Britain or Germany? **According to your reasoning, they must all have fled to the United States, since every other industrialized nation in the world suffers from the tyranny of government run universal health care.

] - it is a conservative solution that came out of the Heritage Foundation (WRONG!). It is exactly the same program Mitt Romney put in place in Massachusetts.** People from all around the world come to Massachusetts, to places like Boston Children’s Hospital**, to see the specialists there…

And those people come from Germany, Canada and Great Britian. I wonder why?

 

[austenbosten]

Jesus was not a politician taking sides with ideologues. He said what He meant and He walked the walk. I don’t see why you’re trying to make this more complicated than it is: give the government what is it’s due and God what is His. If His words were not enough, He paid taxes himself.

What else did He have to do, remain here to speak to you directly?!

What taxes did Jesus pay? Scipio is right; there were no Roman income taxes, and Christ owned no real property.

So tell me seekerz since you obviously know more about Christ than anyone else, including the Bible…what taxes did Jesus pay?

 

[seekerz]

Which tax did Jesus pay? There was no Roman income tax, and Christ owned no real property.

Matt: 17:23-26.

Here is the accompanying section of Haydock’s commentary:

Ver. 23. They that received the didrachmas, (ta didrachma) in value about fifteen-pence of our money. (Witham) — A tax, according to some, laid on every person who was twenty years of age, for the service of the temple. See Exodus xxx. St. Chrysostom thinks it was paid for the first-born only, whom the Lord would have redeemed for the first-born of the Egyptians, whom he slew. Others think it was a tribute paid to the Romans, as Christ, in ver. 24, seems to insinuate, by mentioning the kings of the earth; and the Jews were tributary to them at this time. In ver. 24, the evangelist uses the word Kensos, taken from the Latin census, or tax.

Ver. 25. Then the children. From these words and the following, that we may not scandalize them, some argue that Christians are exempt from taxes. The fallacy of this deduction is victoriously demonstrated from the express words of St. Paul, (Romans xiii.) commanding us to be subject to the higher powers, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake: Render tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom, &c. The word children then does not mean subjects, but must be understood in its natural limited sense. (Jansenius) — Jesus Christ argues a minori ad majus thus, if the kings of the earth exact money from their subjects only, and exempt their own children, how much more ought I to be exempt, who do not claim my descent from a temporal prince only, but from the supreme King of heaven. This example our Saviour would never have adduced, says St. Chrysostom had he not really been the Son of God. (hom. lix.) Our Saviour uniformly waved his right to exemptions in temporal things: he declares every where that temporal princes have nothing to fear from him, or his doctrines, since his kingdom is not of this world. (Haydock)

(emphasis mine)

 

[seekerz]

What taxes did Jesus pay? Scipio is right; there were no Roman income taxes, and Christ owned no real property.

So tell me seekerz since you obviously know more about Christ than anyone else, including the Bible…what taxes did Jesus pay?

See my post above.

From what I can tell, He paid a tax just for existing!

 

[seekerz]

I have absolutely nothing against that primary care doc who wants to pay his people well, provide benefits, and take home $150K -$250K for his efforts and his education.

I have nothing against such docs either: but, as the economics gurus around here like to tell me, the market will support what it will support and right now Medicare/Medicaid gets to decide what it is or is not willing to pay…Isn’t that how all markets work? The one controlling the wallet decides at what price to buy or to reject? That’s what my friends around her taught me…What makes the income of a doctor immune from market forces?

 

[LisaA]

Are there no doctors in Canada, Great Britain or Germany? According to your reasoning, they must all have fled to the United States, since every other industrialized nation in the world suffers from the tyranny of government run universal health care.

Come on, look around you - look at what the rest of the world is like. Look at the FACTS. Obamacare isn’t even a liberal solution - it is a conservative solution that came out of the Heritage Foundation. It is exactly the same program Mitt Romney put in place in Massachusetts. People from all around the world come to Massachusetts, to places like Boston Children’s Hospital, to see the specialists there. There is no basis to all the fear mongering - we have lots of doctors, excellent service and 98% access for all our citizens. Mitt Romney should be running on his healthcare reform record - not running away from it.

The GOP has gone crazy - chewing up policies they once supported because their base is buying into what they hear from the right-wing propaganda machine. Hate does that to people.

Please quit equating the entire 2700 page bill (plus triple that in regulations) with the concept of the mandate. The mandate is the focus because it was one of the issues being litigated and the hope was that if it were struck down then the whole thing would implode due to the severability clause.

The devil is in the details…the 2700 pages with all of the provisions such as the IPAB aka the Death Panel, the various mandates, the take over of the student loan program, the device taxes, the new investment taxes…I could go on forever.

The theory that this is the same as Romneycare is a total canard and not the product of the ‘evil right wingers.’ Ditto with the mandate being dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation.

The GOP NEVER supported a mandate even if some of its members may have thought this a good solution. On the surface it seems so but in reality has many detrimental results, particularly the perverse incentives.

You need to quit worrying about the evil right wing. It’s been the Left throughout history that has created the kind of nightmares you suggest.

Lisa

 

[scipio337]

See my post above.

Yet the Pharisees still accused him of not wanting to pay taxes.

They brought charges against him, saying, “We found this man misleading our people; he opposes the payment of taxes to Caesar and maintains that he is the Messiah, a king.”

usccb.org/bible/luke/23/

I don’t think the argument is that one should pay NO taxes, but where does one draw the line on what is just?

ETA, and JPII did give us his feelings on overspending and the “Social Assistance State”:

By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need…

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

 

[Jeffrey]

Not according to my grandpa… which is why he opted for a private doctor.

VA health care works pretty good.

 

[LisaA]

I have nothing against such docs either: but, as the economics gurus around here like to tell me, the market will support what it will support and right now Medicare/Medicaid gets to decide what it is or is not willing to pay…Isn’t that how all markets work? The one controlling the wallet decides at what price to buy or to reject? That’s what my friends around her taught me…What makes the income of a doctor immune from market forces?

Government dictates that’s what. A doctor does not get “market price” for his services. He gets what Medicare or Medicaid allows. His only choice is to refuse to take those patients and many do. OTOH while you may ascribe only selfish motives to doctors, most of them try to take some indigent patients and accept some Medicare/Medicaid patients. But again as this pool of patients increases, as the mandates for specific care at no reimbursement increases, there will be fewer and fewer doctors willing to accept them.

So the result is less access, less care, more misery for the American people. Is this what you want?

Lisa

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Could be, but I’m not about to turn in the $2,000 per month I draw from SS above my state salary, on principle. You may come to be singing a different song when you’re eligible for SS.

I’ve planned for retirement, so, yes, I probably will turn down SS on principle, if its still around.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Not according to my grandpa… which is why he opted for a private doctor.

I am eligible for VA medical care, but I’ve worked at a VA hospital and I wouldn’t go near one for care if my life depended on it.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Obama hits Romney on ‘tax’ reversal

President Barack Obama, using some of his sharpest campaign language to date, assailed rival Mitt Romney in an interview airing Friday for reversing his position on a fine included in the president’s health care law.

A short portion of the interview was distributed by Obama’s campaign early Friday. The remainder of the interview was not immediately available.

Obama began by pointing to the law Romney enacted while governor of Massachusetts, which included a similar fine assessed to people who choose not to obtain health insurance.

“On the health care bill, Mr. Romney was one of the biggest promoters of the individual mandate,” the president said in the interview with WLWT in Cincinnati. “In Massachusetts, his whole idea was that we shouldn’t have people who can afford to get health insurance to not buy it and then force you or me, or John Q. Public to have to pay for him when he gets sick.”

…

He maintained, however, that the similar Massachusetts fine was a “penalty” since states have a power to assess mandates and the federal government does not.

In the interview Friday, Obama said the reversal from “penalty” to “tax” could be explained purely by politics.

“The question becomes, are you doing that because of politics?” Obama asked. “Are you abandoning a principle that you fought for, for six years simply because you’re getting pressure for two days from Rush Limbaugh or some critics in Washington?”

Obama, using his position as an incumbent, said the presidency required more consistency than Romney was displaying.

“One of the things that you learn as President is that what you say matters and your principles matter. And sometimes, you’ve got to fight for things that you believe in and you can’t just switch on a dime,” Obama said.

Romney’s campaign, in a statement, flipped that assertion back on the president.

“President Obama is right – as president, what you say matters,” Romney spokesman Amanda Henneberg wrote in a statement. “It matters that President Obama told the American people that Obamacare was not a new tax, then sent his lawyers to convince the Supreme Court that it was a new tax, and now is insisting – again – that it is not a tax. Americans deserve straight answers from their president. Mitt Romney believes Obamacare is a job-killing law that raises a whole series of taxes, cuts Medicare, and gets between patients and their doctors. In order to repeal Obamacare, we must replace President Obama.”

politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/06/obama-hits-romney-on-tax-reversal

Obama said the reversal from “penalty” to “tax” could be explained purely by politics.

No, Obama. It has been declared a tax by the Supreme Court. Solicitor General Donald Virelli argued it was a tax

Obama does not seem to understand Romney opposed and vetoed a penalty/tax which was overrode by a Democrat legislature which was over 80%

The original mandate proposed in Massachusetts was different than the ObamaTax mandate

Romney agreed to the mandate believing that Massachusetts citizens would get the opportunity to purchase inexpensive, catastrophic plans. But the legislature, together with Romney’s successor as governor, Deval Patrick, changed the law to require insurers to offer three tiers of coverage — all of them far beyond catastrophic care. Perhaps Romney ought to have foreseen what future legislatures and governors would do — but that’s a far cry from the accusation that Romneycare was indistinguishable from Obamacare

The bill that passed the legislature contained a number of features Romney couldn’t countenance. He opposed the mandate, preferring to permit individuals to post a $10,000 bond in lieu of insurance. The legislature overrode him. He vetoed the employer mandate

, coverage for illegal aliens, the creation of a new bureaucracy to be called the Public Health Council, a provision limiting improvements to Medicaid, and another provision expanding Medicaid coverage to include dental care. His vetoes were overridden

Few voters know, for example, that Romney strongly opposed the employer mandate and wanted an escape from the individual mandate — allowing people to instead be able to post a bond if they were uninsured and had big medical bills. When Romney signed the law, he believed it contained the escape hatch, but legislators removed it before final passage

my emphases

nationalreview.com/author/126296/latest