Surah 5:47

[jlhargus]

This is really an extension to a post of mine in an earlier thread and is an example of how verse 5:47 in the Qur’an explains the disobedience of Christians caused by them not judging based on what has been revealed to them as recorded in their own scriptures on whether or not something is good or evil

Let us examine what the Second Commandment says in the Book of Leviticus:

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” … Leviticus 26:1

Does anyone see the word “worship” in this verse of the Bible?

The Second Commandment is warning against ‘making’ any graven images, ‘erecting’ them and ‘bowing down’ to these statues and pictures.

It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg

In the immortal words of Benjamin Netanyahu – “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then what is it?”

And so, if something looks like a graven image, then making that object, erecting that object and bowing down to that object is very likely to be a most serious and major sin as stated in the Second Commandment… and committing a sin does NOT in any way, shape or form bring anyone closer to God.

JL: What about the kaaba stone in Mecca?

Num 21:7: Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8: And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9: And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

This is an image commanded by the Lord for healing. It is an image a foreshadowing of Christ. The serpent is Christ on the Cross taking on himself all the sins of the world and healing of sin all who look upon him. Would God command a sinful thing to be made for healing? Is God now commanding us to sin?

Ex 25:17: And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18: And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19: And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20: And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21: And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22: And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

Here again the Lord is commanding the making of images of things in heaven and earth to be used in the most Holy or Holies where he will commune with his people. Would the Lord forbid images with a command and then command them to be made even though it was idolatry=sinful? No, He forbad images as gods to worship.

 

[LtTony]

As I have pointed out before on this forum, the claim that the New Testament texts are corrupted, while widespread in certain circles today, has no basis in the Qur’an, in the early Islamic community nor in the classical thinkers of Islamic thought. The texts as we have them seem, for the greatest part, to be the texts as written by their authors.

On the other hand, while those texts offer the best historical access to the person and teachings of Jesus, none of those texts are a written text by Jesus and discerning, historically, what might be the ‘injeel’ of Jesus, through the accounts of the New Testament writers, is a challenge even for the modern, Christian, Biblical scholar.

A long thread on the “corruption” of the Bible, which LtTony also participated in, can be found here…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=426361

Thank you. I will review that thread.

I have heard what you posted before. But it does not seem to be mainstream muslim thought. May I ask, do you only believe in the Koran and reject hadith?

Also, when you write, “and is certainly nothing like Islamic dogma. Of course none of that changes that the idea is widespread, at the moment,” what constitutes "Islamic digma?

“but the idea of an original written text that was subsequently corrupted seems unsupportable.” I would agree, but wouldn’t you agree that most muslims expressing views in the West believe this?

“none of those texts are a written text by Jesus”

So? I don’t think He ever commanded anyone to write anything down. The Bible is a completely different book than the Koran. It seems to me Muslims need a “rule book” to cover every single nuance of life. For a lot of reasons, including that the have the common human trait of needing to be “right, have all the answers.” (There are christians just like that, too.)

My goodness you are the first Muslim I have come across that admits the bible has not been corrupt! However Islamic sources with greater credibility such as Ibn 'Abbas claim it has been corrupt.

Exactly

 

[LtTony]

Muslims believe that Christians (and also Jews) are headed for the Hell-fire because they are flagrantly ignoring and violating much of the Ten Commandments which was handed down to them by God Almighty Himself.

Surah 5:47 of the Qur’an is really a manifestation of the Lord’s displeasure with Christians who have violated the Ten Commandments and which has alas, led them to go far astray in their faith.

Indeed, if you examine every instance where the Qur’an and the Sunnah admonishes the People of the Book, then it is just so obvious that it has been brought about by their gross and willful disregard of the various aspects of the Ten Commandments.

And so, instead of nitpicking about various verses in the Qur’an, let us examine whether or not Christians have willfully disregarded and violated vital aspects of the Ten Commandments since they are indeed found in the Qur’an (with the exception of the Sabbath) and is therefore common ground for discussion between Christians and Muslims.

“Surah 5:47 of the Qur’an is really a manifestation of the Lord’s displeasure with Christians”

How is that? Please relate your reply to the OP, which I don’t actually agree with: that the Koran says Christians will be judged on their Bible from the Christian perspective. I think this Surah (5) says Christians and Jewswill be judged by what Mohammad says.

 

[LtTony]

JL: I might be good also to examine whether or not moslems have willfully and grossly disregarded and violated vital aspects of the Ten Commandments

Well, they basically worship Mohammad. They have essentially assigned him a partnership. Allah and his messenger, Allah and his messenger, on and on and on.

 

[Hypatia]

(Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur’an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

Here it clearly shows a claim the scripture had been distorted. Please bear in mind Ibn Abbas lived during the 7th century which was the same century the Quran had been revealed which places him as an early source contradicting your claim there is no early source stating the scripture is corrupt…

Ibn 'Abbas is one of the early community, but Bukhari is not even born until after 800 CE, and the collection of hadith takes place over 200 years after the death of the Prophet(pbuh). Bukhari is not a straightforward tool where one just whips out whatever hadith one likes, even for Sunnis who rely very heavily on the collections by Bukhari and Muslim.

The safest thing to say about Bukhari is that it does an excellent job representing the range of opinions found within the political and religious circles in which Bukhari moved in the 9th century CE (and these circles have some notable limits). Personally, I find it difficult to go beyond that.

My impression is still that the opinion that concerns you does not become a widespread and widely influential argument until after some time after Ghazali. For instance, even quickly browsing through Bukhari, the position is not prominent, even in other hadith attributed to Ibn 'Abbas on the topic (where the saying is clearly about misinterpretation).

Again, the corruption of some original pure and correct text is a non-starter, historically speaking. The manuscript tradition of the New Testament is fairly well established and the variations in it are minor. The problem with Christian texts about Jesus is not deviation from some original text, it is how little can be gleaned about the historical person of Jesus from them and the fact that we have no written texts from Jesus to help us pierce through the lives written by his followers some 40-70 years after his death.

…and Allah knows best.

 

[LtTony]

And morals are superior in Muslim countries? Please

Have you watched the news recently. These Muslim countries are God-forsaken places.

Morals are no better nor any worse in muslim countries.

What remains in the books of the Christians of the Injil/“Good-News” given to Isa Ibn-Maryam (aleyhi sallam) and what testimony is given in said “New Testament” of his life and teaching (whatever the deficiencies of said accounts) is sufficientand

still contain the truth.

Double talk.

No one who reads the “canonical New Testament” attentively (either at face value or with scholarly erudition) walks away with an opinion which differs than that of the Qur’an

“No one.” Wrong. Many many people do, in fact.

and that the matter of how he left the world was a doubtful matter amongst the early Christians

No, it wasn’t. That is only your opinion.

(ex. Mark’s account has no “resurrection narrative” - and the other three “gospel writers” offer differing accounts, including of the circumstances of his being taken to Paradise.)

Meaningless at best, incorrect at worst. You should start a thread on that subject or search for previous discussions. It is frequently debated on the internet.

 

[LtTony]

This is really an extension to a post of mine in an earlier thread and is an example of how verse 5:47 in the Qur’an explains the disobedience of Christians caused by them not judging based on what has been revealed to them as recorded in their own scriptures on whether or not something is good or evil

Let us examine what the Second Commandment says in the Book of Leviticus:

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” … Leviticus 26:1

Does anyone see the word “worship” in this verse of the Bible?

The Second Commandment is warning against ‘making’ any graven images, ‘erecting’ them and ‘bowing down’ to these statues and pictures.

It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

In the immortal words of Benjamin Netanyahu – “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then what is it?”

And so, if something looks like a graven image, then making that object, erecting that object and bowing down to that object is very likely to be a most serious and major sin as stated in the Second Commandment… and committing a sin does NOT in any way, shape or form bring anyone closer to God.

“If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then what is it?”

That’s not a duck. It is a statue. No one is worshiping the statue. It is not an image of a deity other than God or is not the deity itself. You apparently lack a fundamental understanding of “idol”, idol worshipping and what was going on at the time of Moses. A Muslim often prays with his face to the ground; he is not worshiping the ground, though.

All if this is off topic, however; another of your rants.

"how verse 5:47 in the Qur’an explains the disobedience of Christians caused by them not judging based on what has been revealed to them as recorded in their own scriptures on whether or not something is good or evil "

I’m sorry but whatever thought you are trying to express is so poorly constructed that it is incomprehensible.

 

[hamba2han]

JL: What about the kaaba stone in Mecca?

Num 21:7: Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8: And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9: And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

This is an image commanded by the Lord for healing. It is an image a foreshadowing of Christ. The serpent is Christ on the Cross taking on himself all the sins of the world and healing of sin all who look upon him. Would God command a sinful thing to be made for healing? Is God now commanding us to sin?

Ex 25:17: And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18: And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19: And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20: And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21: And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22: And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

[Here again the Lord is commanding the making of images of things in heaven and earth to be used in the most Holy or Holies where he will commune with his people. Would the Lord forbid images with a command and then command them to be made even though it was idolatry=sinful? No, He forbad images as gods to worship.

Firstly, Muslims do NOT worship the black stone… nor do we worship the Kaaba itself, we are merely bowing down towards it and when we are far away, we bow down in it’s direction.

I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. … (Psalm 138:2)

Secondly, the function of the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is to explain and teach Muslims the **correct **way to interpret the Qur’an in cases where there may arise differences in opinion on what would be the most accurate meaning of any Qur’anic verse or passage.

Think of the Qur’an as the map to guide us in the journey through life and think of the Sunnah as the accompanying legend by which to accurately read this map.

And so, in most matters regarding the Qur’an, Muslims need only refer to the Sunnah in order to obtain the most accurate meaning possible.

Therefore, I would most certainly suggest that Christians refer to what Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself as well as his disciples did in order to resolve any seeming contradictions in Biblical interpretation.

In the case of the Second Commandment, did Jesus Christ (pbuh) and his disciples ever make, erect or bow down to graven images?

I believe that the answer is a most emphatic ‘No’.
[/quote]

 

[rikkk1958]

This is really an extension to a post of mine in an earlier thread and is an example of how verse 5:47 in the Qur’an explains the disobedience of Christians caused by them not judging based on what has been revealed to them as recorded in their own scriptures on whether or not something is good or evil

Let us examine what the Second Commandment says in the Book of Leviticus:

“Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” … Leviticus 26:1

Does anyone see the word “worship” in this verse of the Bible?

The Second Commandment is warning against ‘making’ any graven images, ‘erecting’ them and ‘bowing down’ to these statues and pictures.

It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg

In the immortal words of Benjamin Netanyahu – “If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then what is it?”

And so, if something looks like a graven image, then making that object, erecting that object and bowing down to that object is very likely to be a most serious and major sin as stated in the Second Commandment… and committing a sin does NOT in any way, shape or form bring anyone closer to God.

Who says that we worship statues? Anybody who mis interpret Catholics praying in front of statues are wrong because we never said we worship the statues. It is you Hamba that says we worship statues. Can you read our minds when we pray? If we tell you that we do not worship statues, would you not believe us? If you don’t, why? Because you see us praying in front of statues? Is this your only basis for judging us?

That is not fair Hamba because you can not read our minds. The CCC condemns idolatry and that proclamation is official that we do not worship anything except the Lord God. If you insist then it is not our problem, you should just keep believing yourself to justify your judgment. We judge our actions by what we think, for it is us alone who knows what we think and not what other thinks.

 

[hamba2han]

“Surah 5:47 of the Qur’an is really a manifestation of the Lord’s displeasure with Christians”

How is that? Please relate your reply to the OP, which I don’t actually agree with: that the Koran says Christians will be judged on their Bible from the Christian perspective. I think this Surah (5) says Christians and Jewswill be judged by what Mohammad says.

And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors. … Al-Qur’an 5:46&47

This passage of the Qur’an is saying that since Christians are not judging whether or not an action like the making, erecting and bowing down to graven images is sinful according to what has been revealed in the Ten Commandments, then this can only mean that they are incurring the displeasure of their Lord.

 

[hamba2han]

Who says that we worship statues? Anybody who mis interpret Catholics praying in front of statues are wrong because we never said we worship the statues. It is you Hamba that says we worship statues. Can you read our minds when we pray? If we tell you that we do not worship statues, would you not believe us? If you don’t, why? Because you see us praying in front of statues? Is this your only basis for judging us?

That is not fair Hamba because you can not read our minds. The CCC condemns idolatry and that proclamation is official that we do not worship anything except the Lord God. If you insist then it is not our problem, you should just keep believing yourself to justify your judgment. We judge our actions by what we think, for it is us alone who knows what we think and not what other thinks.

Kindly read my post again, nowhere do I say or even suggest that Christians are worshiping statues or any other forms of graven images.

What I am saying however is that many Christians are indeed either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to objects which look like graven images.

 

[LtTony]

Secondly, the function of the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is to explain and teach Muslims the **correct **way to interpret the Qur’an in cases where there may arise differences in opinion on what would be the most accurate meaning of any Qur’anic verse or passage.

But the Koran is “clear”. It says so several times. But muslims need help understanding what is allegedly “clear.” There are differences of opinion on what is “clear.”

In the case of the Second Commandment, did Jesus Christ (pbuh) and his disciples ever make, erect or bow down to graven images?

They may have created art. They may have prayed in areas where there was art. There may have been religious art in their worship places.
I’m sure they didn’t worship idols, though.

But again, this is one of your off topic rants.

 

[LtTony]

And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors. … Al-Qur’an 5:46&47

This passage of the Qur’an is saying that since Christians are not judging whether or not an action like the making, erecting and bowing down to graven images is sinful according to what has been revealed in the Ten Commandments, then this can only mean that they are incurring the displeasure of their Lord.

The Qur’an states that “tablets” were given to Moses, without even quoting their contents.

Your mindless, narrow view of that commandment puts you into a situation where you have to go though all sorts of ridiculous contortions to rationalize and permit any sort picture/image.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_shall_not_make_for_yourself_an_idol

In typical muslim fashion, you have made the simple so complex that you lose sight of it’s purpose, much like the religious authorities in Jesus’ time.

Kindly read my post again, nowhere do I say or even suggest that Christians are worshiping statues or any other forms of graven images.

What I am saying however is that many Christians are indeed either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to objects which look like graven images.

The commandment is pretty simple: don’t worship an idol. Again, don’t muddy the water with your absurd fundamentalism, and passive/aggressive semantics.

Mohammad’s obtuse spin on this easy-to-understand principle leads to some of Islam’s well-known intolerance:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites#Destruction_of_important_sites

There’s nothing wrong with drawing a picture. There’s nothing wrong with displaying it. There is nothing wrong with praying – to God – near it or in front of it.

Have you ever drawn a picture? Taken a photo? Looked at a picture? Based on your interpretation, you have committed a terrible sin.

 

[jlhargus]

Firstly, Muslims do NOT worship the black stone… nor do we worship the Kaaba itself, we are merely bowing down towards it and when we are far away, we bow down in it’s direction.

JL: I never said anyone WORSHIPED anything. You seem to be back peddling. You did not mention anyone WORSHIPING anything in your original post. IN FACT you claim just having images was forbidden by the second commandment.

Let us examine what the Second Commandment says in the Book of Leviticus: “Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.” … Leviticus 26:1

Does anyone see the word “worship” in this verse of the Bible?

The Second Commandment is warning against ‘making’ any graven images, ‘erecting’ them and ‘bowing down’ to these statues and pictures.

It does NOT explicitly warn against worshiping statues… but it does indeed warn against either making and/or erecting and/or bowing down to them.

JL: Now that you realized you have your own images, such as the black stone, you change your view. What about those images of the moon, MADE AND ERECTED, on some mosques and flags? If images themselves are sinful then why do you have them?

I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. … (Psalm 138:2)

JL: Psalm 138 is speaking of Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem where God’s presents came down. When Psalm 138 was written pagan’s worshiped the black stone along with many so called other gods at Mecca. In the same manner you worship one today .

Secondly, the function of the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is to explain and teach Muslims the **correct **way to interpret the Qur’an in cases where there may arise differences in opinion on what would be the most accurate meaning of any Qur’anic verse or passage.

Think of the Qur’an as the map to guide us in the journey through life and think of the Sunnah as the accompanying legend by which to accurately read this map.

And so, in most matters regarding the Qur’an, Muslims need only refer to the Sunnah in order to obtain the most accurate meaning possible.

JL: I don’t know what your point is here. I have no need to think of the Quran at all. Nor does it matter to me what LEGENDS are used to interpret. Evidently not all Muslims use the same LEGENDS to interpret Quran as not all agree. How do you know your interpretation is correct?

Therefore, I would most certainly suggest that Christians refer to what Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself as well as his disciples did in order to resolve any seeming contradictions in Biblical interpretation.

JL: : I would also most certainly suggest that Moslems ALSO refer to what Jesus as well as his disciples did by reading the Bible and listening to the Church He founded. The Church God’s Word calls the pillar and ground of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15. The SEEMING contradictions in Biblical interpretation is of your own making.

In the case of the Second Commandment, did Jesus Christ (pbuh) and his disciples ever make, erect or bow down to graven images? I believe that the answer is a most emphatic ‘No’.

JL Did Jesus and his disciples ever bow down, kiss or touch a black stone. Did they ever walk seven times around any temple with a black stone. Even though that temple and black stone was there in Jesus’ lifetime. Yet He never visited or mentioned it. I believe that the answer is a most emphatic ‘No’.

 

[LtTony]

JL Did Jesus and his disciples ever bow down, kiss or touch a black stone. Did they ever walk seven times around any temple with a black stone. Even though that temple and black stone was there in Jesus’ lifetime. Yet He never mentioned it. I believe that the answer is a most emphatic ‘No’.

Excellent point.

 

[jlhargus]

Excellent point.

JL: Thanks LtTony

 

[mercytruth]

hamba2han,

I understand your sensitivities to only worship the one true God. It is not my intention to discuss the difference between worship, and giving honor to someone who is not the one true God.

My intention is show you that Isa, Y’shua, that is Jesus Christ gave us a deeper, more strict fulfillment of the ten commandments than Mohammed.

Here are a few examples,

**“You have heard that it has been said, “You shall not commit adultery”, but I say unto you, that whosoever shall look upon a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery in his heart”.

'You have heard that it has been said, “You shall not kill”, but I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause, is in danger of the judgement"**

Isa also told us that we are to ‘love our enemies’. Isa also told us ‘to bless those who curse us, and do good to those who despitefully use us, and persecute us’.

Isa above all else teaches us that we must be obedient to the one true God, and his ten commandments from the heart. And Isa, our Lord Jesus Christ teaches us that the two great commandments are the fulfillment of the law of Musa. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, mind, body, soul, and strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

hamba2han,

This is a higher, and more strict teaching than the teachings of your prophet Mohammed. This is why we believe Isa, our Lord Jesus Christ, is ‘the prophet like unto Moses’, rather than Mohammed. And, hamba2han, Jeremiah the prophet said that a new covenant was going to be given to us, a covenant that was going to be written on the tablets of our hearts…(Jeremiah 31:31-34).

The Creator of all sees your heart hamba2han, and He sees my heart. Where then, is our salvation from the desparate sinfulness of our hearts?

He loves us so much, that He sent His anointed one, the Messiah to this earth to fulfill the deepest meaning of the ten commandments of Musa, and then become the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. To become like the serpent on the pole, that Musa lifted up in the wilderness, that whosoever has been bitten by satan and sin, can be healed.

 

[arabic_catholic]

JL: What about the kaaba stone in Mecca?

Num 21:7: Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8: And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9: And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

This is an image commanded by the Lord for healing. It is an image a foreshadowing of Christ. The serpent is Christ on the Cross taking on himself all the sins of the world and healing of sin all who look upon him. Would God command a sinful thing to be made for healing? Is God now commanding us to sin?

Ex 25:17: And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18: And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19: And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20: And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21: And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22: And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

[Here again the Lord is commanding the making of images of things in heaven and earth to be used in the most Holy or Holies where he will commune with his people. Would the Lord forbid images with a command and then command them to be made even though it was idolatry=sinful? No, He forbad images as gods to worship.

actually I just made a video about the Kabba and tha pagan roots of it , I mentioned 6 example of other kabbas in pre-islamic time arabia , and the book I am quoting from is a muslim historian , many of them follow the same rituals that muslim do today !

youtube.com/watch?v=qpTkIKN1_oo
[/quote]

 

[Dave_B]

Telling us such things with neither details nor (most importantly) context does nothing to further knowledge or understanding.That said, do you impugn the sacred law detailed in the Pentateuch or as portrayed in the various prophetic and historical books of the Tanakh as well?I believe I have heard this line of thinking described as “‘nicer than God’ Christianity.”

I think you are mistaken to think that God is not a God of love. I simply do not believe God, who gave us his Son to save us from our sin, would advocate jihad and violence.

It is a fact that Muhammed brought nothing new except what was inhuman and evil. This may not be politically correct. But you should search your heart and see if this is the truth.

Our God is a God of peace and love. He loves us. He does not want holy war and violence. He wants us to show brotherly love to one another. Jesus called us all to live a holy life, where we love God with all our heart and soul, and where we are to love our neighbour.

Please read the gospels and meditate on their real meaning, during Holy week. God bless you.

 

[hamba2han]

Quite a few questions are being asked about the Islamic ruling regarding making images and so to briefly explain:

In general, it is forbidden in Islam to make graven images of things which have a soul such as human beings and animals… but it is permitted to produce pictures of things which do not have a soul such as trees, inanimate objects and scenery.

Unfortunately, not all Muslims fully understand the religious ruling on making graven images and so you will see many Muslims too are committing the sin of producing forbidden images.

This explanation on the prohibition on making graven images is contained in the ahadith and it might be possible that it was explained in earlier scriptures as well like the **Injeel **but alas, large portions of these earlier scriptures have either been lost or corrupted and so we can only speculate whether or not they did contain more detailed explanations of religious laws.

hamba2han,

I understand your sensitivities to only worship the one true God. It is not my intention to discuss the difference between worship, and giving honor to someone who is not the one true God.

My intention is show you that Isa, Y’shua, that is Jesus Christ gave us a deeper, more strict fulfillment of the ten commandments than Mohammed.

Here are a few examples,

**“You have heard that it has been said, “You shall not commit adultery”, but I say unto you, that whosoever shall look upon a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery in his heart”.

'You have heard that it has been said, “You shall not kill”, but I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause, is in danger of the judgement"**

Isa also told us that we are to ‘love our enemies’. Isa also told us ‘to bless those who curse us, and do good to those who despitefully use us, and persecute us’.

Isa above all else teaches us that we must be obedient to the one true God, and his ten commandments from the heart. And Isa, our Lord Jesus Christ teaches us that the two great commandments are the fulfillment of the law of Musa. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, mind, body, soul, and strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

hamba2han,

This is a higher, and more strict teaching than the teachings of your prophet Mohammed. This is why we believe Isa, our Lord Jesus Christ, is ‘the prophet like unto Moses’, rather than Mohammed. And, hamba2han, Jeremiah the prophet said that a new covenant was going to be given to us, a covenant that was going to be written on the tablets of our hearts…(Jeremiah 31:31-34).

The Creator of all sees your heart hamba2han, and He sees my heart. Where then, is our salvation from the desparate sinfulness of our hearts?

He loves us so much, that He sent His anointed one, the Messiah to this earth to fulfill the deepest meaning of the ten commandments of Musa, and then become the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. To become like the serpent on the pole, that Musa lifted up in the wilderness, that whosoever has been bitten by satan and sin, can be healed.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Prescribed for the son of Adam is his portion of adultery which he must inevitably acquire. The adultery of the eyes is the glance. The adultery of the ears is listening. The adultery of the tongue is speech. The adultery of the hand is the grasp. The adultery of the foot is the step. The heart yearns and desires. The genitals then either confirm this or deny it.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]

This hadith means that a share of adultery will inevitably befall the sons of Adam. However, some of them will actually commit adultery by engaging in unlawful sexual intercourse and others will not. True adultery is to engage in outright sexual intercourse.

Those who do not actually commit adultery through outright sexual intercourse can still be said to do so in a figurative sense. This could be by looking at unlawful sights, by listening to sexual acts, by touching an unrelated woman with the hand, by kissing her, by walking somewhere with the intention of committing adultery, by engaging in illicit talk with a woman, or what have you. All of these can be considered adultery only in a figurative sense. Though such acts are sinful, they do not constitute adultery in a legal sense.

The above is just one example of just how similar the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) are… but as you can see, the main difference is that the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) generally contains a great deal more detailed explanations of particular religious rulings.

There are actually many, many other examples of such similarities, all that one needs to do is to refer to the ahadith and compare it to the actual teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself as recorded in the New Testament… and NOT the teachings of Paul or anyone else.