Surrogacy and Homosexuality

[CatholicSheila]

Yeah, but.

Catholics conform to a certain set of beliefs. Presbyterians conform to a different set. Methodists to a different set. And so on.

If a person is going to flout the beliefs of Catholicism to such an extent as OP, that person wouldn’t rightly be part of the group called Catholics.

A lot of Catholics don’t know that IVF is wrong. A lot of Catholics don’t know that gay adoption is wrong, or if they have heard it is, they don’t understand why. It is very difficult to accept a teaching one doesn’t understand. Especially if someone does not have a strong faith life to begin with and a strong trust that the Holy Spirit guides our Church.

We can disagree with her. We should inform her of what the church teaches. Expecting her to change her mind just because we’ve told her is unrealistic. Deeming her a non-Catholic because she hasn’t changed her mind is uncharitable. Perhaps those who are making that accusation have never struggled with the faith but I have. I know that when I hear something I don’t like my first thought isn’t “Oh, ok, I’ll change my view then”. Especially if it is something I hold very dear and see only good in. Even more so if I’m been attacked for my view - that doesn’t open anyone up to listening. It may be a prideful reaction, but it is a human reaction. With time the Holy Spirit works on us and shows us that the Church does know best. In my experience however, He can take his time sometimes.

The OP is not a “good” Catholic. She admits that herself in her first post when she says she is lapsed. That does not mean we get to decide whether or not she is Catholic. The Church gets to make that decision and unless she does something that results in automatic excommunication, the Church deems her to be Catholic. If the Church will not claim she isn’t Catholic, who are we to claim so? Does Starrsmother, or you, know better than the Church?

 

[Starrsmother]

How about some charity? You don’t get to decide who is or isn’t Catholic. I agree that what she is doing is a sin, but we all sin. We’re no less Catholic for it.

Look. I can’t convince you of anythimg; I’m a retired women’s health nurse practitioner and nurse midwife. When I was working, I bet I put in over 1000 IUD’s. I’m not proud of that–infact I am qiuite ashamed now. It’s a sin that I’ve confessed. BUT at the time, I didn’t look at things as I do now. Moreover, I have an SSA daughter–live and learn. I don’t know what the gay couple are paying you, but I assure you that if you are truly Catholic it’s not enough.You will live to be horribly ashamed of your decision. When I put IUD’s in women it didn’t bother me. It bothered me when I came back to the church. God set the rules for reprodction. All; I am saying is that what you are doing is a sin. So why do it? Is there a lot of money involved as that would be a huge temptation. Remember though that the child you carry and feel inside you for 9 months will be raised by homosexuals, You are making a huge mistake. All I’m doing is bringing it up and reminding you that you will one day have to answer to God for itl Children deserve a mom and dad—not 2 moms or 2 dads… I have 5 kids and I loved every pregnancy. I would have never entered into one where the child had to bear and live with the result of the decisions I made. I don’t think you are a bad person. But if God wanted 2 men or 2 women to be able to reproduce, He would have made it possible. If you are truly Catholic, think of your immortal soul–and also think what you are doing to an innocent baby. Or you can certainly do this,and at least . consider that you are not Catholic–so find another church that fits your needs. What you propose is against Catholic dogma–and I know that you know this. Do you want to know why it is such a serious sin—or have you made up your mind already? I’'ll happily discuss why it is a terrible thing for you to do—but only if you care. If you’be been offered enough money or whatever and your decision is made, then I see no reason to continue the dpscusson…

 

[MaryT777]

As a single father with full custody I’ll leave the Catholic church and its teachings out of it.

I can not imagine anything more cruel to do to a child than deny it having a mother or father. Although my wife decided to move out when our kids were tweens, and I provide her full access/visitation in my home (every morning during the school year, couple of afternoons and bring dinner once-a-week, and I ensured each kids has a cell phone and she can call them anytime), it has affected them in such a devastating way at the most fundamental level of identity and self-worth, I could never personally do that to a child. Ever.

Kids need a Mom and they need a Dad. I’m male and could never be a Mom. Two gay men are men, they may be even more masculine than myself. The kids going to be missing something fundamental to their basic needs as a human being.

It’s bad enough with no-fault divorce that we do this to kids. That it happens to them. I would never, ever choose this for a child.

In all likelihood your child will forever wonder why their own mother felt so little for them that she could treat them as a commodity, to be given away. That they meant so little to their own mother, just a transaction, just a product.

I agree; kids long for a mother and father. All kids.
Mary.

 

[Starrsmother]

Look. I can’t convince you of anythimg; I’m a retired women’s health nurse practitioner and nurse midwife. When I was working, I bet I put in over 1000 IUD’s. I’m not proud of that–infact I am qiuite ashamed now. It’s a sin that I’ve confessed. BUT at the time, I didn’t look at things as I do now. Moreover, I have an SSA daughter–live and learn. I don’t know what the gay couple are paying you, but I assure you that if you are truly Catholic it’s not enough.You will live to be horribly ashamed of your decision. When I put IUD’s in women it didn’t bother me. It bothered me when I came back to the church. God set the rules for reprodction. All; I am saying is that what you are doing is a sin. So why do it? Is there a lot of money involved as that would be a huge temptation. Remember though that the child you carry and feel inside you for 9 months will be raised by homosexuals, You are making a huge mistake. All I’m doing is bringing it up and reminding you that you will one day have to answer to God for itl Children deserve a mom and dad—not 2 moms or 2 dads… I have 5 kids and I loved every pregnancy. I would have never entered into one where the child had to bear and live with the result of the silly decisions I made—even if they were PC at the time. I don’t think you are a bad person. But if God wanted 2 men or 2 women to be able to reproduce, He would have made it possible. If you are truly Catholic, think of your immortal soul–and also think what you are doing to an innocent baby. Or you can certainly do this,and at least . consider that you are not Catholic–so find another church that fits your needs. What you propose is against Catholic dogma–and I know that you know this. Do you want to know why it is such a serious sin—or have you made up your mind already? I’'ll happily discuss why it is a terrible thing for you to do—but only if you care. If you’be been offered enough money or whatever and your decision is made, then I see no reason to continue the discussion…God blress you and help you to to make the deciison that both He and you want made----

 

[kozlosap]

Yeah, but.

Catholics conform to a certain set of beliefs. Presbyterians conform to a different set. Methodists to a different set. And so on.

If a person is going to flout the beliefs of Catholicism to such an extent as OP, that person wouldn’t rightly be part of the group called Catholics.

Even that is a gross over simplification of belief standards, especially in the more educated first world nations. From different polls, it is quite apparent that the majority of Catholics from the USA, Canada and Western Europe do not stand with the dogma of the Church on hot button issues such as ABC, LGBTQ ISSUES, and reproductive technology. Yes, I do think that in the next fifty years the RCC will soften her views and very slowly move into the new millennium.

 

[sw85]

A lot of Catholics don’t know that IVF is wrong. A lot of Catholics don’t know that gay adoption is wrong, or if they have heard it is, they don’t understand why. It is very difficult to accept a teaching one doesn’t understand. Especially if someone does not have a strong faith life to begin with and a strong trust that the Holy Spirit guides our Church.

We can disagree with her. We should inform her of what the church teaches. Expecting her to change her mind just because we’ve told her is unrealistic. Deeming her a non-Catholic because she hasn’t changed her mind is uncharitable. Perhaps those who are making that accusation have never struggled with the faith but I have. I know that when I hear something I don’t like my first thought isn’t “Oh, ok, I’ll change my view then”. Especially if it is something I hold very dear and see only good in. Even more so if I’m been attacked for my view - that doesn’t open anyone up to listening. It may be a prideful reaction, but it is a human reaction. With time the Holy Spirit works on us and shows us that the Church does know best. In my experience however, He can take his time sometimes.

The OP is not a “good” Catholic. She admits that herself in her first post when she says she is lapsed. That does not mean we get to decide whether or not she is Catholic. The Church gets to make that decision and unless she does something that results in automatic excommunication, the Church deems her to be Catholic. If the Church will not claim she isn’t Catholic, who are we to claim so? Does Starrsmother, or you, know better than the Church?

The OP said explicitly “if the Church teaches X, then I will renounce Catholicism.” So, yes, it is reasonably safe to say she is not in communion with the Church, having publicly announced as much, repeatedly.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Even that is a gross over simplification of belief standards, especially in the more educated first world nations. From different polls, it is quite apparent that the majority of Catholics from the USA, Canada and Western Europe do not stand with the dogma of the Church on hot button issues such as ABC, LGBTQ ISSUES, and reproductive technology. Yes, I do think that in the next fifty years the RCC will soften her views and very slowly move into the new millennium.

Why? What has she softened in the last 50 years?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Even that is a gross over simplification of belief standards, especially in the more educated first world nations. From different polls, it is quite apparent that the majority of Catholics from the USA, Canada and Western Europe do not stand with the dogma of the Church on hot button issues such as ABC, LGBTQ ISSUES, and reproductive technology. Yes, I do think that in the next fifty years the RCC will soften her views and very slowly move into the new millennium.

You can think that all you want. Make sure you are inhaling and exhaling though. The point is that the Church is binding. That is the authority that Christ gave Her. So even if the liberal fantasy of softening came true (it can’t) it will not change the fact that She binds with laws and standards now. And you live now.

People were still convicted during the prohibition you know.

I do find it odd that people supplant their own beliefs in place of the Church and expect her to change to fit “modern” ideals. As if a homosexual society were something sophisticated and modern and civilized that the world has never seen before.

Did she soften her teachings for Greece, or Rome? LOL. What you will see is a definite softening. But it will not be the Church who is doing it, it will be some members that do it.
In Iraq, people are holding their headless children, but here, we treat our faith like it is something that needs to change.

 

[Starrsmother]

So, here it is inaa nutshell. Either you qccept Catholic dogma or you don’t. If you can’t live with Catholci dogma the quit qnd go to a different church that sells whatever you want to hear. But dom’t ’ expehxt the Catholic church to change so you can make some bucks as a brood-cow! for gays! Get q lifea

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So, here it is inaa nutshell. Either you qccept Catholic dogma or you don’t. If you can’t live with Catholci dogma the quit qnd go to a different church that sells whatever you want to hear. But dom’t ’ expehxt the Catholic church to change so you can make some bucks as a brood-cow! for gays! Get q lifea

That’s telling her!

 

[on_the_hill]

So, here it is inaa nutshell. Either you qccept Catholic dogma or you don’t. If you can’t live with Catholci dogma the quit qnd go to a different church that sells whatever you want to hear. But dom’t ’ expehxt the Catholic church to change so you can make some bucks as a brood-cow! for gays! Get q lifea

Posted the person from Alaska, probably typing with frozen fingers on an iPhone.

 

[Todd977]

LilPuppie, it appears that your intentions are good, selfless even, and, of course, you must do what you think is right. However, based on your decisions to be a surrogate mother, it seems to me that your moral compass, your sense of right and wrong, is off a bit, at least from a Catholic perspective. I don’t know; perhaps you have been unduly influenced by the secular culture without realizing it. I would hope you will consider making the effort to realign your moral compass to correspond more closely to Catholic moral teaching, which is based on divine revelation and the work of some very intelligent people over thousands of years.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

LilPuppie, it appears that your intentions are good, selfless even, and, of course, you must do what you think is right. However, based on your decisions to be a surrogate mother, it seems to me that your moral compass, your sense of right and wrong, is off a bit, at least from a Catholic perspective. I don’t know; perhaps you have been unduly influenced by the secular culture without realizing it. I would hope you will consider making the effort to realign your moral compass to correspond more closely to Catholic moral teaching, which is based on divine revelation and the work of some very intelligent people over thousands of years.

Nice!

 

[CatholicSheila]

Look. I can’t convince you of anythimg; I’m a retired women’s health nurse practitioner and nurse midwife. When I was working, I bet I put in over 1000 IUD’s. I’m not proud of that–infact I am qiuite ashamed now. It’s a sin that I’ve confessed. BUT at the time, I didn’t look at things as I do now. Moreover, I have an SSA daughter–live and learn. I don’t know what the gay couple are paying you, but I assure you that if you are truly Catholic it’s not enough.You will live to be horribly ashamed of your decision. When I put IUD’s in women it didn’t bother me. It bothered me when I came back to the church. God set the rules for reprodction. All; I am saying is that what you are doing is a sin. So why do it? Is there a lot of money involved as that would be a huge temptation. Remember though that the child you carry and feel inside you for 9 months will be raised by homosexuals, You are making a huge mistake. All I’m doing is bringing it up and reminding you that you will one day have to answer to God for itl Children deserve a mom and dad—not 2 moms or 2 dads… I have 5 kids and I loved every pregnancy. I would have never entered into one where the child had to bear and live with the result of the decisions I made. I don’t think you are a bad person. But if God wanted 2 men or 2 women to be able to reproduce, He would have made it possible. If you are truly Catholic, think of your immortal soul–and also think what you are doing to an innocent baby. Or you can certainly do this,and at least . consider that you are not Catholic–so find another church that fits your needs. What you propose is against Catholic dogma–and I know that you know this. Do you want to know why it is such a serious sin—or have you made up your mind already? I’'ll happily discuss why it is a terrible thing for you to do—but only if you care. If you’be been offered enough money or whatever and your decision is made, then I see no reason to continue the dpscusson…

I’m not the OP

Check who you’re replying to before you actualy reply.

 

[CatholicSheila]

The OP said explicitly “if the Church teaches X, then I will renounce Catholicism.” So, yes, it is reasonably safe to say she is not in communion with the Church, having publicly announced as much, repeatedly.

She used future tense, which means nothing. We’ve all said we’ll do x, and then never do it.

We don’t get to say “well, you’re already not a Catholic”. Only the Church gets to say that. Whilst a sin this isn’t a serious enough issue for the Church to say that.

 

[sw85]

She used future tense, which means nothing. We’ve all said we’ll do x, and then never do it.

We don’t get to say “well, you’re already not a Catholic”. Only the Church gets to say that. Whilst a sin this isn’t a serious enough issue for the Church to say that.

The Church has already said that deliberate and knowing subscription to beliefs proscribed by the Church separates one from the mystical body of Christ. See, e.g., Pope Pius XII’s Mystici Corporis Christi, para. 22.

 

[marymary1975]

Wow, I never expected to find such judgement (not everyone). How much MONEY am I getting? It’s not about money. I live in Canada, paid surrogacy is illegal. For every penny I receive I have to have a receipt proving it’s a pregnancy related expense, not that that was a factor in my question.

I’m doing what I feel in my heart is right. If being true to the church would mean denying a family to someone, the church loses. If children are truly gifts from God, God has a poorly researched gift list. Perhaps I am being prideful, or selfish, or I’ve already left the church behind. But I believe God’s love is only rivalled by the love of a parent, and in choosing to do this I believe I am honoring God. He created us in His image, gay or straight. If I am wrong, I am prepared to someday answer to Him for that. I’ve been Catholic my whole life, as are my parents and their parents before them, but I have to be true to myself before I can be true to a book that also tells me I can’t eat shellfish.

No one is entitled to a child. Children are not goods that all of sudden you decide you get one and then go and get them. You mention that the church loses if means “denying a family to someone.”. You will be denying the child a mother and children deserve the right to have a responsible mother and father to take care of them. So the church loses because the church not only considers the “I want” from the adult but considers the actual need of the child?

By doing this you are not honoring God, you are honoring the I want of adult, creating a motherless children and we haven’t even mention putting a toll on your own body and putting your own self at risk.

Your last statements denotes that you have very little knowledge of the catholic faith as if you would have actual knowledge of the faith you should know that the dietary laws of the old testament were overthrown by Jesus himself.

 

[abdulmasih]

The right to have children was given to married men and women. It’s how Seth, Cain and Abel were born. If you go against this order, you go against God.

 

[MarkInOregon]

She used future tense, which means nothing. We’ve all said we’ll do x, and then never do it.

We don’t get to say “well, you’re already not a Catholic”. Only the Church gets to say that. Whilst a sin this isn’t a serious enough issue for the Church to say that.

What makes someone a Catholic? Am I Catholic if I say I am but believe nothing the Church teaches? And I have no interest in pursuing or trying to understand what the Church teaches? Am I not a Catholic if I say I’m not but yet believe everything the Church teaches?
Just what is it that makes one a Catholic – baptism? What determines when one has left the Church?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[CHRISTINE77]

What makes someone a Catholic? Am I Catholic if I say I am but believe nothing the Church teaches? And I have no interest in pursuing or trying to understand what the Church teaches? Am I not a Catholic if I say I’m not but yet believe everything the Church teaches?
Just what is it that makes one a Catholic – baptism? What determines when one has left the Church?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I would say she is an extreme cafeteria Catholic

Pope Francis said that rigid traditionalists and cafeteria Catholics “aren’t really Catholics”

patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2014/06/pope-francis-rigid-traditionalists-and-cafeteria-catholics-arent-really-catholics/