Sweden defends no lockdown plan; says coronavirus immunity growing

[tomarin]

‘Are we going to turn x million into telemarketers?’

A fate worse than death.

Woody Allen: ‘about death, we’ll what can you say? There are things worse than death: if you’ve spent an evening with an insurance salesman, you know what I’m talking about.’

 

[Ridgerunner]

Everybody waiting for a vaccine may starve, lose their house and go stir crazy staying at home, and still be disappointed if a vaccine doesn’t come along fairly soon. I still don’t see where anybody predicts a vaccine before September, and that seems to be a minority view. And it really seems if the economy doesn’t open up before September, there won’t be an economy anymore except possibly in China

I do see where one pharmaceutical company has just satisfied FDA that its vaccine won’t kill monkeys. Whether it will prevent Covid19 in monkeys is yet to be learned. Whether it will do any good for people appears to be a long way off.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Why can’t a robust national testing program be put in place?

Must vary from place to place. In my state, nearly every town, some quite small, have testing sites. Many around here at least have drive-through sites. I think they’re local effort things, begun either by county health departments or medical complexes.

https://health.mo.gov/living/healthcondiseases/communicable/novel-coronavirus/mobile-testing.php

 

[Cathoholic]

Cathoholic . . . .

That means that the average age of people who die with Corona Virus,
is virtually identical to the average age of people who die without Corona Virus.

Some of those freightened people are not getting their diabetic care, their cancer care, or paying their expenses because they are too freightened.

The scare tactics are self-destructive.

Far from people like me ignoring the mortality and morbidity associated with the virus, it is the scare-mongers in the media that are
ignoring the WHOLE PACKAGE of mortality and morbidity associated with the nightly freight night on the news (admittedly there are some notable exceptions in the media).

niceatheist . . .

So we’re back to expendable populations.

Why say “back to”?

I don’t see your guys ever straying from “expendable populations”.

Whether it is the pre-born,
old,
and/or immune suppressed,
it is always your guys who seem to think of them as “expendable populations”.

The old and immune supressed people can hibernate just fine if they want to (without FORCING OTHERS to do so).

The hibernation model
has watched eighty thousand deaths
and enormous economic hardship (much of it yet to trickle down).
More economic hardships will follow from this in the future.

It is time to change away from a paradigm that has been an utter failure.

 

[billsherman]

What do you imagine for WPA work at home?

Any number of things. The actual WPA did so many varied projects that I can’t imagine anyone has counted them all.

Basically the idea is to put people on projects within their sphere of competency. The projects need to be “for the public” though. So, for example, many state and local governments have laid off employees. You could have the federal government pay the salaries of the laid off workers to go back to their jobs for some temporary period of time.

You could also do things like have laid off journalists write local tour guide books. Laid off electricians could be placed into a consortium to upgrade or repair the electrical systems in public buildings and parks.

Use your imagination! Basically, the idea is to gainfully employ individuals who are out of work instead of bailing out shareholders with huge checks to a small number of corporations. It’s been done before, it could be done again.

 

[Cathoholic]

billsherman . . . .

Why can’t a robust national testing program be put in place?

I don’t want a “national testing program”.
I would rather do my own testing and my own quarantining.

The last thing I want is MORE Government, at least for me.

If someone wants to go into their doctor for a test instead, that’s fine too.

Or like with pregnancy testing,
you could just do BOTH (home and physician but NOT “national”!) testing.

 

[billsherman]

billsherman:

Why can’t a robust national testing program be put in place?

Must vary from place to place.

It probably does. Which means that there isn’t a robust national testing program. I’m not sure if it fell through, or if it never existed and Trump meant it to be aspirational. But regardless, a robust national testing program would make getting through this a lot less painful.

 

[dvdjs]

In my state,

Your state ranks a sorry fortieth out of fifty in tests per capita,

 

[Theo520]

You could also do things like have laid off journalists write local tour guide books. Laid off electricians could be placed into a consortium to upgrade or repair the electrical systems in public buildings and parks.

I love the concept of WPA but it can’t be applied here, during a lock down.

A tour guide needs the writer to visit all the places they are recommending, not stay in quarantine. Can’t recommend any entertainment because they are all closed and many may not reopen due to bankruptcy.

You are also asking for electricians to break quarantine. If so, why not just let them get back to work on their unfinished construction jobs, so it’s not on the govt dime.

WPA isn’t an answer to this crisis.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is my impression that it is largely in the hands of governors and local officials with financial aid from the federal government; some of it in kind and some in the form of money. Possibly that’s not an ideal example of subsidiarity, but it’s not a terrible one, and frankly, one I would prefer to some national program started from scratch.

I’m not sure, either, what a “robust testing program” would be. Right now, at least here, testing is available to the point that the testers stand idle much of the time. I’m not aware of anyone who has a reason to be tested failing to get a test. Maybe somewhere.

But I can’t see testing people just to do it. All that does is tell the testers about one day. The next day the person might get the disease.

 

[ATraveller]

Let’s see what Australia has to say about herd immunity:

Scott Morrison has slammed a strategy being adopted by other nations to combat the coronavirus pandemic, labelling it a “death sentence”.

The prime minister said while Australia was showing promising signs of recovery, the same clearly was not the case overseas and in some areas where “herd immunity” was being used.

“United States haven’t reached it, Sweden hasn’t reached it, the UK hasn’t reached it… even with all the death and devastation we’ve seen in those countries - they’re nowhere near herd immunity,” Mr Morrison said.

'Death sentence': PM slams coronavirus strategy used by some countries

Scott Morrison said Australia was forging ahead, while others were still in their peak of the pandemic.

au.news.yahoo.com

Country	Population	Confirmed Cases	Tested/million	Deaths
:australia: Australia	25,706,500	6,966	34,564	97
:sweden: Sweden	10,333,456	27,272	14,371	3,313

New Cases Reported (daily)
:australia:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
:sweden:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
(COVID-19 pandemic in Australia - Wikipedia)
(COVID-19 pandemic in Sweden - Wikipedia)
(COVID-19 testing - Wikipedia)

 

[Theo520]

@ATraveller
Scott Morrison seems a bit rash in his condemnation.

The benefits of herd immunity come late, we won’t know for a year if it was a better or more viable path for some countries.

Australia took the path of a Hare while Sweden bet on the Turtle. The race is far from over.

 

[Emeraldlady]

@ATraveller
Scott Morrison seems a bit rash in his condemnation.

The benefits of herd immunity come late, we won’t know for a year if it was a better or more viable path for some countries.

Australia took the path of a Hare while Sweden bet on the Turtle. The race is far from over.

Herd immunity was one of the topics discussed when the epidemic was raging in China based on the Chinese death stats, but when the more realistic view of how deadly the disease was by the Italy stats, there really was no alternative to lockdown. You can’t aim for herd immunity as a primary principle, with such a deadly killer.

 

[Cathoholic]

Emeraldlady . . .

You can’t aim for herd immunity as a primary principle, with such a deadly killer.

I never thought “herd immunity” was the aim.

I always thought the aim was to flatten the curve and not break our healthcare system. At least here in the USA.

.

You can’t aim for herd immunity as a primary principle, with such a deadly killer.

The average age of people dying WITH Corona Virus? About age 82.
The average age of people dying WITHOUT Corona Virus? About age 82.

For those elderly or immune suppressed that choose to remain in hibernation?

I’m fine with that.

But with 80,000 deaths WITH lockdowns,
the lockdowns seem to have been very ineffective in preventing deaths. At least in certain populations (the elderly in Florida have seemed to do better than the eldely in New York).

Lockdowns have been very effective in hurting the economy.

 

[Emeraldlady]

But with 80,000 deaths WITH lockdowns,
the lockdowns seem to have been very ineffective in preventing deaths

Is it you belief that without lockdowns the death toll would have still been 80,000?

 

[Cathoholic]

Emeraldlady . . .

Is it you belief that without lockdowns the death toll would have still been 80,000?

But I never suggested “without” lockdowns did I?

I suggested those most vulnerable can choose of their own accord to lockdown themselves or not lockdown.

Is it your belief that with lockdowns the economic toll can be zero?

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady . . .

Is it you belief that without lockdowns the death toll would have still been 80,000?

Sweden who’ve taken that path, today have a death rate of 328 per million pop. compared to neighbours locked down Denmark with 91 per mill. pop. and locked down Norway 42 per mill. pop. and locked down Finland with 50 per mill. pop.

The correlation is undeniable. Without lockdown the vulnerable are toast regardless of all their caution.

Is it your belief that with lockdowns the economic toll can be zero?

I know it’s not zero because we are living it. But the history of the world shows that economic recovery is inevitable.

 

[Cathoholic]

Sweden who’ve taken that path, today . . .

But that’s not what I asked.

I want to know WHY we should have economic destruction, only to have to go “out” and face the virus anyway?

It doesn’t make sense, and it is immoral.

Without lockdown the vulnerable are toast regardless of all their caution.

Then they can choose to lock themselves down.

. . . the history of the world shows that economic recovery is inevitable.

No it doesn’t. Sometimes yes and sometimes no.

The obvious examples being those who starve to death, or get sick, or cannot get access to their healthcare.

A callous disregard for economic hardships can morph into blowing off the deaths of those victims of unnecessary economic dismantling. Not by you, but by others.

And WHY have economic destruction, but still have to go out and face the virus?

And I have been asking this for weeks from many people.

And have had no satisfactory answer.

Just insults, deflection, ad hominems, etc.

One of the only ones who has given a direct answer about this is Rush.

He says it is political.

I have wondered about that now for awhile myself.

Why?

By their ACTIONS, some of these people in power and/or influence
seem to WANT this destruction of America.
At least for now. And they seem to want to capitalize on this viral infection for political gain.

And I am open to other answers, but am not seeing any.

Rush Limbaugh: Democrats Will Try to Keep Economy Shut Down to Ensure Trump Loses Re-election​

JOSHUA CAPLAN

12 May 2020 Breitbart News

Tuesday on his nationally syndicated radio show, conservative talker Rush Limbaugh said Democrat Party lawmakers will attempt to squash plans to reopen the economy while the Chinese coronavirus pandemic subsidies as part of an effort to sabotage President Donald Trump’s prospects of winning re-election in November . . . .

Rush: Dems Will Try to Keep Economy Shut Down to Ensure Trump Loses

Rush Limbaugh said Democrats will attempt to squash plans to reopen the economy as part of an effort to ensure Trump loses in 2020.

www.breitbart.com

 

[Emeraldlady]

Sweden who’ve taken that path, today . . .

Lockdown conforms to the Christian moral solution which puts saving lives as the first priority. But I suspect that most support lockdown because of pragmatism ie. a decimated population is like a 3 legged dog. Vulnerable both to stronger aggressors and to internal ideological aggressors. I suppose yes that qualifies as a generic (not partisan) political/ideological motive.

Without lockdown the vulnerable are toast regardless of all their caution.

The vulnerable are more in need of help and assistance than anyone. Those loopholes have been the downfall of the vulnerable even in strict lockdown. They are toast left to their own fate.

. . . the history of the world shows that economic recovery is inevitable.

You can’t count Atlantis.

The obvious examples being those who starve to death, or get sick, or cannot get access to their healthcare.

Give me a concrete example where epidemic avoidance measures have done more harm than good to a nation?

A callous disregard for economic hardships can morph into blowing off the deaths of those victims of unnecessary economic dismantling.

That’s the purpose of welfare. In the West at least, we have become very cognizant of the absolute necessity of government assistance in times of crisis which is a very humane evolution.

And WHY have economic destruction, but still have to go out and face the virus?

Like any war we have to take time to bunker down, re group, train, plan and strategise to make the best defense. Scientists are flat out looking for cures to alleviate and vaccines to immunise. We by now all know that this thing is going to be with us for the long hall but to just recklessly believe the best way is to sacrifice the vulnerable and then tomorrow we can just get on with our life uninterrupted is the stuff of fantasy.

 

[Emeraldlady]

nd I have been asking this for weeks from many people.

And have had no satisfactory answer.

Just insults, deflection, ad hominems, etc.

One of the only ones who has given a direct answer about this is Rush.

He says it is political.

I have wondered about that now for awhile myself.

Why?

By their ACTIONS, some of these people in power and/or influence
seem to WANT this destruction of America.
At least for now. And they seem to want to capitalize on this viral infection for political gain.

And I am open to other answers, but am not seeing any.

The majority of nations have gone into lockdown. This isn’t a uniquely American approach. This is war against a deadly enemy and a time to exercise the faith we proclaim.

1 Tim 6 17 As for those who in the present age are rich, command them not to be haughty, or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but rather on God who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18 They are to do good, to be rich in good works, generous, and ready to share, 19 thus storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of the life that really is life.