Swedenborg and Padre Pio

[SteveG]

WhiteDove:

Yes, that’s one thing I remember from that book, that he stated that you wouldn’t be allowed into Heaven unless you thought there was one God, not three. I gathered from that that he had some sort of Unitarian, Oneness type belief, and did not accept the Trinitarian view of God.

Nevertheless, his vision of Heaven was interesting. He really elaborated on the communities of Angels, the levels of Heaven, etc. He said that the hierarchy of Heaven was spiral, with God being in the center, and those communities with a higher spiritual development being closer to the center. Some of it did make sense.

I speak from experience here as I was ‘this’ far away from becoming a member of their church at one point. What you outline above is exactly why it is so scary. It is very beautiful and attractive in so many ways and does ‘seem’ to make sense. To say it is interesting is an understatement.

Fundamentally, the real attraction is that he explains EVERYTHING. I personally suspect that this was do to his scientific bent in which he needed an explanation for everything as he couldn’t leave things unexplained. Because of that, he wipes all the mystery out of the faith.

He describes death, heaven and hell all matter of factly and in very great detail. The problem here is that we are told that what God has prepared eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered the mind of man to imagine what God has in store for us. As a now Catholic, one of the beauties of the faith is mystery. The fact that I, a limited person, can not possibly concieve of God in His fullness. Swedenborg kills that and breaks everything down into an ultimately comforting, but boring set of what he calls ‘correspondances’.

Further, as you read more of his works and speak with more of the folks who are his ‘followers’, the more it becomes clear that the philosphy ultimately boils down to Universalism, and moral relativism. You can see that hinted at even in the few posts SpirituralSon has made here.

Again speaking from experience, I would strongly warn anyone from getting involved with his teachings. They indeed do masquerade as an angel of light and can be extremely attractive, particularly for those people not intimately knowledeable about the faith of the early post-apostolic period and church history.

That being said, again, I am not trying to cast aspersions. Many members of the ‘new church’ are some of the nicest, most moral, family oriented people you can meet. Many people’s experience with Mormonism (which I also considered at one point) is very similar. That fact doesn’t absolve the falsities found therein.

 

[AmandaPS]

Didn’t Swedenborg wrongly prophici that the world was going to end in 1757?

 

[SpiritualSon]

WhiteDove:

I read part of Swedenborg’s Heaven and Hell . It’s not that well written but nevertheless is interesting. It made me think of Heaven in a new way.

I love that English Hymn ‘Jerusalem!’. The words were written by the famous English poet, William Blake. He was a follower of Swedenborg, who was very popular in England. Here are the lyrics:

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England’s mountain green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England’s pleasant pastures seen?
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England’s green and pleasant land.

**Words by William Blake (1757-1827) **

WhiteDove
I just looked at your profile today.Last Sunday was your birthday.

Happy Birthday

 

[Digitonomy]

AmandaPS:

Didn’t Swedenborg wrongly prophici that the world was going to end in 1757?

Wrongly?!?!?

Here’s some more on him from Separated Brethren: A Review of Protestant, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox & Other Religions in the United States, by William Whalen (©2002 Our Sunday Visitor)

He carefully described the flora and fauna of heaven, as well as the appearance of the inhabitants of other planets such as Mercury, Jupiter, Mars, and the moon…
He seldom attended the state Lutheran Church because, he complained, spirits kept interrupting the sermons and contradicting the minister.

The book doesn’t address bilocation, but its description leads me to suspect that he was referring to coexisting in the material and spiritual worlds, not coexisting in Stockholm and Amsterdam. Is that accurate, Harry?

Famous Swedenborgians: Clarence Walker Barron (financial expert), Helen Keller, John “Johnny Appleseed” Chapman, and the father of William and Henry James.

 

[HagiaSophia]

flick427:

No, I am eating fine and not cranky.

Doncha just love the personal remarks when all else fails on the subect at hand?

Since this is a non-Catholic section, I don’t care if someone wants to come in and discuss another belief system but to enter a Catholic forum and say that they “know” a great saint like Pio would lend himself to this kind of "stuff: is enough to make anyone cranky…
:tsktsk:

 

[HagiaSophia]

SteveG:

Yes, I’d especially like to re-read the part about the Pope (It’s been years since I read Swedenborg so I no longer recall which Pope it was) flying overhead of Catholics in the ‘outer’ part of heaven proclaiming his regret for not recanting the concept of the Trinity when he knew it to be false.

Well recently someone has been going into more than one Catholic forum and “pushing Swedenborg” stuff. You have to wonder …

 

[RobedWithLight]

Harry, you stated that:

Heaven and hell are from the human race.The reason for heaven and hell, so that the human race can continue forever.Those in heaven are willing to be led by the Lord,and those in hell are not willing.They want to be led by themselves.There is no fire hell.Nobody burns. Fire in hell means hate towards the Lord and those who look to Him.In hell the evil spirits must work in order to eat.No one there is allow to do evil to another or they will be punish.Even angels are send to hell if they have allow themselves into evil.They sent back to heaven when they repent,and see their wrong doings.
**

So, you are saying that evil spirits still ‘eat’ in hell, and therefore we can by extension say they can ‘drink’ as well? If they indeed ‘eat’, do they eat actual food ?

How does this compare with Christ’s parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. The Rich man who was being tormented in hell had to even beg Abraham to let him drink even a little water and was refused.

There is nothing in Scripture or holy tradition which says that evil spirits in hell can still eat.

To point no. 2 wherein I said that swedenborgians believe the last Judgment has already taken place, you said:

Order was accomplish in heaven and hell.
**
An interesting reply. What do you mean by the term ‘order’? Are you implying that before 1757, there was a lack of order even in heaven?

In your reply to point. no. 3 you said:

*There’s no waiting in the grave forever for last judgment day. Who wants to be in that state? *
**
Of course. I would take it to mean yes. Since the last judgment has already occured according to your beliefs, in 1757, it will no longer be repeated, in stark contrast to Catholic belief that it has yet to come to pass. This is plainly inconsistent with basic Christian doctrine that the dead would be raised up on the last day for judgment as recorded in the book of Revelation.

In your reply to point no. 6 you said:

God is one, in Person and in Essence.

Catholic teaching firmly declares that God is Three Persons subsisting in one Divine Nature/Essence.

Gerry

 

[SteveG]

AmandaPS:

Didn’t Swedenborg wrongly prophici that the world was going to end in 1757?

I don’t believe so. He did say that in one of his visions he witnessed the final judgement in Heaven. Maybe that’s what you could have heard about? As far as ‘prophets’ and revelationists go, he was extremely intelligent and could hardly have been said to come across as a kook. I think it’s pretty well established he didn’t even intend to found a church. His followers just naturally did that based on his ‘revelations’.

 

[SteveG]

digitonomy:

The book doesn’t address bilocation, but its description leads me to suspect that he was referring to coexisting in the material and spiritual worlds, not coexisting in Stockholm and Amsterdam. Is that accurate, Harry?

I don’t want to speak for Harry, but having read and known quite a bit about this topic (years ago mind you), I think your description is right on. Until today, I had never heard of him ‘bilocating’. I think Harry may have possibly misunderstood what we mean by bilocation in reference to Padre Pio.

 

[AmandaPS]

I just re-read the thread, and I still find the Swedenborg theology confusing.

What is bilocate?

 

[SteveG]

AmandaPS:

I just re-read the thread, and I still find the Swedenborg theology confusing.

What is bilocate?

bilocate in the Catholic sense is to be in two places at one time. What Swedenborg claimed was that at a certain point in his life his ‘spiritual eyes’ were opened and he saw and spoke to spirits. These were not trances, he did not ‘go’ anywhere. He just saw them. If he was in a room filled with people there were angels that he could see and speak with that no one else could. He claimed to more or less have one foot in the material world and one foot in the spiritual world. The closest thing a Catholic could imagine to understand this is if you could suddenly see your (and everyone elses) guardian angel, along with all the evil spirits battling them. Hope that helps.

Steve

 

[SteveG]

HagiaSophia:

Well recently someone has been going into more than one Catholic forum and “pushing Swedenborg” stuff. You have to wonder …

I think that’s our friend Harry.(Hi Harry ) I’ve read a bunch of his posts and am oing to see if I can engage him in some discussion on this as I am one of the very, very few (if any) folks on these boards who have likely even heard of the ‘New Church’.

 

[flick427]

AmandaPS:

I just re-read the thread, and I still find the Swedenborg theology confusing.

What is bilocate?

“bilocate” basically means that a person can be in two places at one time…
It is said that St. Pio (Padre Pio) was able to bilocate.
Now this Swedenborg, I don’t know what the deal with this guy is. But like I said, someone having a ability like that isn’t what makes them holy.
This thread confuses me too…I don’t understand under what authority or basis someone considers Swedenborg a valid Theologian. For all we know this guy could have just been having a series of hallucinations to see what he did. I don’t have a clue what this guy was trying to prove…but this is the same idea as the church of scientology…beliefs systems that are just made up and followed with no legitimate authority.

 

[SteveG]

flick427:

This thread confuses me too…I don’t understand under what authority or basis someone considers Swedenborg a valid Theologian. For all we know this guy could have just been having a series of hallucinations to see what he did. I don’t have a clue what this guy was trying to prove…but this is the same idea as the church of scientology…beliefs systems that are just made up and followed with no legitimate authority.

Yes. Swedenborg can be fairly placed in the category which includes the likes of Mohammed (Islam), Joseph Smith (Mormonism), et al. Men who said they had a personal, direct revelation from God (that no one else had of course), and that God explained the REAL truth to them. In each instance it boils down to trusting that the revelation of the individual was genuine and nothing else. And in each case it involved rejecting orthodox Christainity and embracing heresy.

 

[SpiritualSon]

SteveG:

Yes. Swedenborg can be fairly placed in the category which includes the likes of Mohammed (Islam), Joseph Smith (Mormonism), et al. Men who said they had a personal, direct revelation from God (that no one else had of course), and that God explained the REAL truth to them. In each instance it boils down to trusting that the revelation of the individual was genuine and nothing else. And in each case it involved rejecting orthodox Christainity and embracing heresy.

The New Church has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. I don’t know about Smith’s doctrine. Does he worship one God in three persons like your church?

The real truth is from Swedenborg’s writings. He was given the authority. I have my own thread called “truth about God”.

Harry

 

[Antonio_B]

HagiaSophia:

And you know that exactly how?

"…The deviation from the dogmatic views of the church of the period was twofold: firstly there was in Swedenborg’s writing a penetrating criticism of certain dogmatic teachings. First of all was his criticism of the old doctrines of the Trinity and of Christology. According to his opinion the errors arose in the very earliest period of the church which led to the teaching of the triple personality of God and that of two natures in Christ. When faith had been separated from charity, in the sense of active love of the neighbor, the doctrine of faith became an arena for extensive disputation, the result of which was to lead men further and further away from the truth. Probably his most striking criticism was that of the orthodox Protestant doctrine of justification, which was directed by him against its originator, the apostle Paul himself. His main reproach against Paul, which constantly reappears in his criticism of the contemporary theology of justification is this: Paul, by his teaching of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, had separated faith from charity, and had thus given charity a back seat in the virtues of Christian piety (“whereas charity is everything”) and had in this way contributed to a loveless theological formalism in the church.

swedenborg-philosophy.org/journal/article.php?page=1011&issue=103

Perhaps if you are a student of Swedenborg’s, you’d like to share his visions of Catholics and/or their hierarchy in the afterlife?

Dear Lord, what have I done to deserve this? I thought Harry was left forever with his Swedenborg heresy in that other forum, only to encounter the same garbage here.
Sophia, is there no peace for my broken soul?

Antonio :banghead:

 

[flick427]

SpiritualSon:

The real truth is from Swedenborg’s writings. He was given the authority. I have my own thread called “truth about God”.
Harry

Given the authority by who?
Anyone could write a book and say that Angels talked to him and just because it sounds good/true doesn’t make it that way…In fact others have done so just like “SteveG” said…many people seem to think they are right…
Swedenborg says he talked to Angels and we have the “New Church”
Joseph Smith says he talked to Angels and we have “Mormanism”
Muhammed says he talked to an Angel and we have “Islam”
So, how could three people all have talked to God’s angels and all ecieved different answers…it isn’t possible…neither of the three can be right.
No one is probably going to convince you that you are wrong either, I haven’t met any, but I think Swedenborg followers may be stubborn from the way it sounds, though I wouldn’t know.

 

[SpiritualSon]

flick427:

Given the authority by who?
Anyone could write a book and say that Angels talked to him and just because it sounds good/true doesn’t make it that way…In fact others have done so just like “SteveG” said…many people seem to think they are right…
Swedenborg says he talked to Angels and we have the “New Church”
Joseph Smith says he talked to Angels and we have “Mormanism”
Muhammed says he talked to an Angel and we have “Islam”
So, how could three people all have talked to God’s angels and all ecieved different answers…it isn’t possible…neither of the three can be right.
No one is probably going to convince you that you are wrong either, I haven’t met any, but I think Swedenborg followers may be stubborn from the way it sounds, though I wouldn’t know.

The “Mormanism” and Muhammed are false. One thing good about Islam, they don’t worship one God in three Divine persons. They have more respect for Jesus as the greatest prophet than the Jews. How do you know what you were taught was right?

Harry

 

[RobedWithLight]

SpiritualSon:

The “Mormanism” and Muhammed are false. One thing good about Islam, they don’t worship one God in three Divine persons. They have more respect for Jesus as the greatest prophet than the Jews. How do you know what you were taught was right?

Harry

Because 2000 years of accumulated tradition and writings by the greatest minds of Christendom, all of whom complemented each other, and all of whom would have found Swedenborgian doctrines antithetical to Catholic teaching, and now here we are being told that Swedenborg is correct and 2000 years of teaching by the greatest minds of the Church is wrong.

Gerry

 

[SteveG]

SpiritualSon:

The New Church has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. I don’t know about Smith’s doctrine. Does he worship one God in three persons like your church?

The real truth is from Swedenborg’s writings. He was given the authority. I have my own thread called “truth about God”.

You missed my point. I wasn’t saying Swedenborg had anything to do with Joseph Smith. I WAS saying that there is a similarity in how the two religions (Mormonism and New Church) were founded. Joseph Smith, like Emmanual Swedenborg (and like Mohammed before them) claimed to have been visited by angels and spirits who revealed ‘THE TRUTH’ to them. A religious system then sprang up based upon writings of these men regarding what was revealed to them. In that fundamental aspect, the three men, and the three religions are alike. I am not talking about any particular doctrinal similarities at this point. Knowing a good bit about both, I would say that Mormons and members of the new church have very different beliefs.

And this begs the question. Why do you believe in Emmanual Swedenborg’s revelation over Joseph Smith’s, or Mohammed’s or the myriad of other individuals who have claimed similar revelation to ‘restore’ the church.