Swedenborg and Padre Pio

[Faithful_2_Rome]

Swedenborg “appeared” to me last night in a vision…

He told me he was wrong… he ws mislead by demons…or just his overactive mind…he still isnt sure…

Oh…he also asked me why anti catholics, schismatics, heretics, atheists and pagans wanna waste their time on pro catholic sites unless they are actually trying to LEARN SOMETHING…

I told him that I was hoping since he was dead and on the other side, HE may be able to answer that FOR ME.

 

[SteveG]

SpiritualSon:

The “Mormanism” and Muhammed are false. One thing good about Islam, they don’t worship one God in three Divine persons. They have more respect for Jesus as the greatest prophet than the Jews.

What do you mean Mormonism and Islam are false? Joseph Smith DID claim to have spoken with angels and claimed to recieve private revelations upon which he founded a religious system. Likewise with Mohammed and Islam. What are you saying is false? Are you saying their religions are false? If so, by what right do you claim such. Their claim is as good as Emmanual Swedenborg’s. How do we know his was ‘true’ and theirs false? How is one to evaluate? Or should I just take your word for it?

SpiritualSon:

How do you know what you were taught was right?

Well now, in matters of faith, none of us can be 100% certain in a scientific way. We can however use our reason and God given intellect to examine the evidence and claims of any system of belief. In my own case, after deep and long study on biblical scholareship (prior to being a believer), I came to be satisfied that the New Testament is historically reliable. From reading that history I become convinced that Jesus Christ was God and that he had founded a Church. From reading that history and the subsequent writings of the disciples of Jesus’ apostles (early church fathers) it became clear that church was the Catholic Church, which continues via apostolic succession to this day.

The basis of Christian orthodoxy is actually quite different from the new church. It is actually based in claimed historical occurrences that either were or were not true, as oppossed to a personal revelation to a particular person. Jesus didn’t have a revelation he shared with his followers who then built a religious movement. The faith turns on the truth or falsity of one particular historical event…the ressurrection. This either happened or it didn’t and it depends not on the apostles revelation, but on the whether the fact that they claimed to have seen him risen from the dead is true or not. I am convinced by their later willingness to give their own lives in defense of this claim that they were not lying. One does not die for a lie. There is a possibility they suffered mass hallucination, but this explanation seems unlikely as well, as the record tells us that over 500 of his followers saw him risen. That would be some mass delusion!

Do you see the fundamental difference? Your religion is ultimately based solely on your trust in the truth of the private revelations of one man (Emmanual Swedenborg) which you have no way of verifying or evaluating the factualness of. Ours is based on historical occurrences which either did or did not happen. Occurrences which are supported by the subsequent actions of his followers and can to some extent be evauluated based on ‘outside’ evidence and history. In our case, a non-believer could fairly say that we are mistaken and the evidence points elsewhere. In any event, at least we have a history and evidence to examine. This historical basis for both Judaism and Christianity is unique among religions. All you have is the hope that Swedenborg’s revelations were genuine.

 

[HagiaSophia]

flick427:

but I think Swedenborg followers may be stubborn from the way it sounds, though I wouldn’t know.

Well at least one appears to be lonely and desperate for someone to talk to.

 

[SpiritualSon]

The Catholic Church does not believe the Word has a spiritual sense in it. They say the Word is Holy because the Lord spoke it. No matter how simple I explain the meaning of the Lord’s flesh and blood,they still don’t get it.

A Jew asked the Lord in John, “How can a man be born again a second time?” The Catholic Church has an idea what the Lord was saying about being born again. This means the old self must die,so that the new self may live.

On floor of Mary Magdalene’s church in France there is a painted snake. The snake is in a round circle,with the tail in its mouth. The snake means life from death, regeneration, born again. The Lord taught Mary Magdalene the spiritual sense of the Word,especially the regeneration of man. The Lord also taught her how to put away the old self by doing repentance,and put on the new self.

Harry

 

[SteveG]

Harry:
I am not letting you off the hook here. Please respond to this from my previoius post…
*** Joseph Smith DID claim to have spoken with angels and claimed to recieve private revelations upon which he founded a religious system. Likewise with Mohammed and Islam. What are you saying is false? Are you saying their religions are false? If so, by what right do you claim such. Their claim is as good as Emmanual Swedenborg’s. How do we know his revelation was ‘true’ and theirs false? How is one to evaluate? Or should I just take your word for it?***

SpiritualSon:

The Catholic Church does not believe the Word has a spiritual sense in it.

This is patently false. The church teaches three ways of reading scripture, the literal, the allegorical, and the deeper/spiritual sense. The fact is the spiritual sense of scripture as understood by the Church is manifestly different from Swedenborg’s understanding. But until you answer my first question (above), I can’t see why his understanding should be trusted over the church’s.

SpiritualSon:

They say the Word is Holy because the Lord spoke it. No matter how simple I explain the meaning of the Lord’s flesh and blood,they still don’t get it.

They get it, they just aint buyin it because it’s based solely on Swedenborg’s private interpretation which stands in stark contrast to the understanding of orthodox Christianity from the apostles onward.

SpiritualSon:

A Jew asked the Lord in John, “How can a man be born again a second time?” The Catholic Church has an idea what the Lord was saying about being born again. This means the old self must die,so that the new self may live.

I feel sorry for you in the sense that your Catholic education must have been very poor indeed. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about regarding Catholic theology/belief. It’s why people are having a hard time understanding what you are trying to communicate. The Catholicism you are presenting is a straw man, and is unrecognizable to them as the faith they hold dear. I am not even sure what you mean by…

*** The Catholic Church has an idea what the Lord was saying about being born again. ***
... What do you think the Church understands being born again to mean? What is the 'idea' you think the Church has?

 

[Antonio_B]

Steve,

I hate to tell you but some of us here already dealt with Harry in another forum and he will go on, and on, and on, like the Energizer Bunny until he drives you to insanity!

Swedenborg is his Gospel and no matter how many reasonable explanations of Christianity, nothing matters but Swedenborg.

Antonio :nope:

 

[Faithful_2_Rome]

Lets see…Peter…okay…first Pope…second…third…etc…I’m looking but…I cant seem to…wait a sec’…is that…NOPE…its not there…NO “Swedenborg” for Papal succession …

 

[SpiritualSon]

SteveG:

Harry:
I am not letting you off the hook here. Please respond to this from my previoius post…
Joseph Smith DID claim to have spoken with angels and claimed to recieve private revelations upon which he founded a religious system. Likewise with Mohammed and Islam. What are you saying is false? Are you saying their religions are false? If so, by what right do you claim such. Their claim is as good as Emmanual Swedenborg’s. How do we know his revelation was ‘true’ and theirs false? How is one to evaluate? Or should I just take your word for it?

---

The LDS beliefs on the trinity
The Trinity**?** We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that they are One Eternal God - yet they are also three distinct Beings.

The question is, how are they one? Most modern Christians accept creeds developed primarily in the fourth century that teach a Trinity of one substance and one Being, without body, parts, or passions, yet having three coequal persons. Many feel that the doctrine of the Trinity is exactly what the Bible teaches, but I see that doctrine as a departure from the teachings of the Bible due to the powerful influence of Greek philosophy, where God was taught to be immaterial and of one “substance.” So what do the scriptures mean when they speak of Christ and the Father being one? Recall the great prayer of Christ in John 17. There, in verse 21, Christ prayed that His followers “all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me; that they also may be one in us.” In verse 22, He again prayed “that they may be one, even as we are one.” A related concept of oneness is also expressed by Paul in 1 Cor. 3: 6-8: “I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase… Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.” In my view, this kind of oneness is a unity of purpose, intent, and heart, not a blending of substance into one being. When Christ prayed (many times) to His Father in Heaven, we believe that He was doing exactly that - communicating with His Father, another Being, of whom Christ said, “My Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), contradicting, for example, the Athanasian Creed. Likewise, In Acts 7:55,56, before being killed by hateful critics, Stephen looked up towards heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” He saw two Beings. Further, in the creation story in Genesis 1, God (Elohim, a plural noun) says in verse 26: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” We feel inclined to take that literally. (Note that the same wording is used to describe the physical similarity between Adam and one of his sons in Genesis 5:1-3; see also Heb. 1:3 and James 3:9.) I know that goes against what most churches teach and is certainly open to debate, but taking the Bible too literally should not be sufficient cause to say we are not Christians.

From me:
I see your church is agreeing with the LDS. The oneness between man and man is not the same as the oneness between Father and Son. The oneness between Father and Son is that of the Soul and Body of Jesus Christ. The Soul and Body of Jesus Christ is His Divine and Human. The Lord’s inner self, which is the Father, and His outer self is the Son or Human. We are all one when it comes to good, but each person has their own understanding.

Harry

 

[SpiritualSon]

I was thinking that the Mohammed and Islam religion isn’t false as the LDS. What they need is understanding. They believe in one God like the Jews, but they, like the Jews don’t believe Jehovah God became Man. The Mohammed and Islam consider the Lord to be the greatest prophet. They shun the three Divine persons.

**In the spiritual world the Mohammedans’ hostility to the Christians is primarily due to the Christians’ belief in three Divine Persons, leading to the worship of three Gods and three Creators; and with the Roman

Most hostility is towards the Catholics in the spiritual world, because of the way they bend the knees before images.They call the Catholics idolaters, and other Christians, fanatics, saying that they make God three-headed, saying one the mouth, but think three. Consequently they accuse them of splitting omnipotence into three, instead of acknowledging the single omnipotence of the one God. This, they say, makes them like fauns with three horns, one for each God, and with three together for the one God.

Harry

**

 

[SpiritualSon]

AmandaPS:

I just re-read the thread, and I still find the Swedenborg theology confusing.

What is bilocate?

What is so confusing about it?

Harry

 

[Gryphon]

Antonio B:

Dear Lord, what have I done to deserve this? I thought Harry was left forever with his Swedenborg heresy in that other forum, only to encounter the same garbage here.
Sophia, is there no peace for my broken soul?

Antonio :banghead:

Antonio, Antonio… don’t let Harry cut up your peace!

He’s a heaven-sent opportunity to point out - very charitably, of course - just how wrong E. Swedenborg was…

… and thereby help in the salvation of how ever many souls read through this thread - perhaps even Harry’s!

We can’t expect everyone on these forums to agree with us. Especially not on the “non-Catholic religions” forum!

But we can expect the forums to give us the opportunity to reasonably and charitably defend the Faith while we’re here on earth. We’re currently members of the Church Militant, so that’s part of the job.

Which is why we are engaged in the mighty battle to secure souls for Christ… through prayer… through sacrifice… and (at least occasionally)… by making a darned fine argument on a thread like this! We do what we can… and leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit.

It’s only in Heaven that we’ll get to the know true peace of the Church Triumphant (and may God grant you full measure, Antonio).

I’ve been meaning to go back to the other thread and pick up where Harry and I left off… but the nine-day wonder of the family reunion just ended, and I’m still up to my eyebrows in laundry, and catching up on 500 emails at work, and I thought Harry had probably packed his bag and gone home. Now that I know Harry’s still here, I’ll have to go look up the other thread… but not tonight. Time for me to sign off and hit the hay!

 

[SteveG]

SpiritualSon:

SteveG:

Harry:
The LDS beliefs on the trinity
The Trinity? We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that they are One Eternal God - yet they are also three distinct Beings.
…

     From me:

I see your church is agreeing with the LDS. The oneness between man and man is not the same as the oneness between Father and Son. The oneness between Father and Son is that of the Soul and Body of Jesus Christ. The Soul and Body of Jesus Christ is His Divine and Human. The Lord’s inner self, which is the Father, and His outer self is the Son or Human. We are all one when it comes to good, but each person has their own understanding.

Harry

I did not ask for a dissertation on LDS belief. I have studied LDS belief in detail, and they manifestly do not believe in the trinity in the same way as Catholics. The Vatican even recently put out a statement that from a Catholic perspective LDS baptisms are not valid BECAUSE of their heretical understanding of the Trinity.

Nor did I ask for an explanation of Swedenborg’s understanding of the Trinity-which I am already well acquainted with, having read probably as much or more of his works as you.

I don’t believe I even brought up the trinity.

I realize this Swedenborgian notion of the trinity is what you are plugged into right now, but for a moment, please read and respond to my question as if we are two real human beings engaged in a real conversation.

     I will ask again with all charity that you answer the ACTUAL question I asked.  
     ***Both Joseph Smith and Mohammed claimed to have spoken with angels and claimed to have recieved private revelations upon which they founded a religious system. Their claim to such revelations is the same in nature as Emmanual Swedenborg's. How do we know that his revelation was true and their's false? How is one to evaluate?

---

 

[HagiaSophia]

Antonio B:

Dear Lord, what have I done to deserve this? I thought Harry was left forever with his Swedenborg heresy in that other forum, only to encounter the same garbage here.

 

[Antonio_B]

And Gryphon has no idea what Harry is like. As you well know, one can point reasonable arguments for the heresy call Swedenborg to no avail.

And of course, the Padre Pio reference has me irritated to no end!

Antonio

 

[SpiritualSon]

ALatter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (Article of Faith 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (Articles of Faith, chap. 2) Encyclopedia of Mormonism, AGodhead.

The doctrine above is false.There are no three gods. God is one,in Person and in Essence,and that God is Our Lord Jesus Christ.

According to Swedenborg’s teachings,and what I believe, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of one God in the same manner that man has a mind, body and spirit. The Mind, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore the Divine Trinity is in Him.

Jesus said,The Father is greater than I. The Lord meant that His Soul is greater than His outer self.He was talking about Himself.Amen

Harry

 

[SpiritualSon]

Heaven and hell are from the human race.The reason for heaven and hell, so that the human race can continue forever.Those in heaven are willing to be led by the Lord,and those in hell are not willing.They want to be led by themselves.There is no fire hell.Nobody burns. Fire in hell means hate towards the Lord and those who look to Him.In hell the evil spirits must work in order to eat.No one there is allow to do evil to another or they will be punish.Even angels are send to hell if they have allow themselves into evil.They sent back to heaven when they repent,and see their wrong doings.
**

So, you are saying that evil spirits still ‘eat’ in hell, and therefore we can by extension say they can ‘drink’ as well? If they indeed ‘eat’, do they eat actual food ?

How does this compare with Christ’s parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. The Rich man who was being tormented in hell had to even beg Abraham to let him drink even a little water and was refused. **
He who knows that “tongue” signifies doctrine, may understand what is meant by the words of the rich man in hell to Abraham:

That he would send Lazarus that he might dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool his tongue, that he should not be tormented in the flame (Luke 16:24).

“Water” signifies truth, and “tongue” doctrine; by the falsities of which he was tormented, and not by the flame. No one in hell is in flames, but flames there are appearances of the love of falsity; and fire is the appearance of the love of evil.

Harry

**

 

[SteveG]

SpiritualSon:

ALatter-day Saints believe …

Are you an automaton bent on simply copying and repasting your definition of the Trinity into post after post, or are you a real person who can read a question and formulate your own response to it?

I have known many members of the new church, and I can not recall any of them being so unwilling to actually engage in a REAL discussion. Your behavior is reflecting badly on your fellow believers.

 Again, with charity, please read and answer this question....
 ***Both Joseph Smith and Mohammed claimed to have spoken with angels and claimed to have recieved private revelations upon which they founded a religious system. Their claim to such revelations is the same in nature as Emmanual Swedenborg's. How do we know that his revelation was true and their's false? How is one to evaluate?***

…I am NOT asking you about the differences in the beliefs of the three religions.

 Let me reformulate it if it is unclear.
 ***We have three men all claiming to have met with angels and had the truth revealed to them. All three truths differ from each other and are based on the trustworthiness of the revelations being claimed. How am I to know which of the three had the real/correct revelation?***

 If you don't have an answer don't be ashamed or afraid to just say so.

 

[hlgomez]

According to Swedenborg’s teachings,and what I believe, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three aspects of one God in the same manner that man has a mind, body and spirit. The Mind, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore the Divine Trinity is in Him.

Jesus said,The Father is greater than I. The Lord meant that His Soul is greater than His outer self.He was talking about Himself.Amen

Harry

No amen to that. You don’t confuse the two natures of Christ. When the Lord said that the Father is greater than I–He meant in His humanity, not His Divinity. You are defining your own dogmas which is very dangerous. When Jesus assumed our humanity, he assumed our entire being–body, soul and spirit–these are not God’s nature but human’s. God is Spirit–that’s His nature! Jesus Christ human nature IS NOT in the Father nor the holy Ghost. The human nature which was assumed by the Second Person of the Trinity is only found in Jesus Christ–the Word made flesh.
You are on a slippery slope brother, come back to the Catholic faith–if you are a Catholic…

Pio

 

[SpiritualSon]

…I am NOT asking you about the differences in the beliefs of the three religions.

Let me reformulate it if it is unclear.
We have three men all claiming to have met with angels and had the truth revealed to them. All three truths differ from each other and are based on the trustworthiness of the revelations being claimed. How am I to know which of the three had the real/correct revelation?

If you don’t have an answer don’t be ashamed or afraid to just say so.

Swedenborg was the one who was chosen,not the other two or any other church.

The Lord’s second coming was by means of the Word in the spiritual sense. This means the Son of man will not be coming in person, because the Son of man means the Lord as to the Word.

If you really want to know which one claims the truth, go to the Lord directly and ask Him.Ask Him to help you to understand the truth. Don’t go to any Priest, Bishop or the Pope, just go to the Lord and ask Him.

As I type these word a thought has come into my mind that those outside the New Church are kept in ignorance by the Lord so that they may not make false the writings of the New Church.
It is the Lord who is keeping you and others here in ignorance.

Harry

 

[SteveG]

SpiritualSon:

Swedenborg was the one who was chosen,not the other two or any other church.

I sincerely do appreciate you finally taking a stab at this and responding. However, this still doesn’t really answer the question. It just restates what you believe, not why. The question boils down even further than before to be…
**

• How do you KNOW Swedenborg was chosen? On what do you base that very strong claim?***

SpiritualSon:

If you really want to know which one claims the truth, go to the Lord directly and ask Him.Ask Him to help you to understand the truth. Don’t go to any Priest, Bishop or the Pope, just go to the Lord and ask Him.

I have done that, and He told me to go talk to the Pope, the successor of Peter and the head of the church which Jesus founded (see Matthew 16:18).

Beside in all seriousness, this can’t be your real answer can it? It is also the same claim made by followers of Joseph Smith and Mohammed. They say, just read the words they wrote and pray to the Lord and he will show you this is the way. The Mormons even have a catchy phrase for this idea. They call it the ‘burning in the bosom’. But not EVERYONE can make the same claims, then come to different conclusions and still ALL be right. Give me one good reason WHY I should believe Swedenborg’s claim over the others?

SpiritualSon:

As I type these word a thought has come into my mind that those outside the New Church are kept in ignorance by the Lord so that they may not make false the writings of the New Church. It is the Lord who is keeping you and others here in ignorance.

Friend, I have read several works of Swedenborg, and I assure you it’s not ignorance. The fact is that I have also read the scriptures, and the writings of those who learned from and knew the apostles (the early church fathers), and studied the history of the early church deeply, along with studying ancient Jewish culture of the 1st century (can you say the same?).

The simple fact is that the faith preached by Swedenborg has no resemblence to the faith taught by those who learned from, and passed to others, that which the Lord taught. Like it or not, your entire understanding hinges on the fact that you trust that the revelations of Swedenborg are real, but you have no way of knowing if that is so. With about 8 billion people on the planet and only 20,000 members of the new church, you should wonder why God would keep 99.9975% of the humanity in ignorance?

God did not give us an intellect and reason so that we could blindly turn it over to Emmanual Swedenborg, Joseph Smith, or Mohammed.