Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

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rinnie said:
Could you supply an official Church statement that says that the Eastern Catholic Church claims that Muslims do not adore the One God.

Proof that they are in direct conflict with the teaching of the CCC that quotes to you that they indeed DO profess the faith of Abraham.

I need an official Church teaching that states opposite.
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Can you show where Jesus said that those that deny Him hold the Faith of Abraham?
 
jam070406 said:
How would it change the Truth?? It would presume that their worship is pleasing to God and it would totally negate the importance of Christ crucified!
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I did not ask you that. I said how could them praying to Jesus Christ still not mean they are praying to the One True God.

Let me put this another way. Do Protestants pray to the same Jesus Christ as Catholic’s? We have different ways of worship?

Catholic’s do not believe that they have the fullness of the Truth. Catholic’s believe we must have all of the Sacraments. Etc. There is TONS of differences in our beliefs.

We do not believe that they have the fullness of the truth. But we believe that when they pray to Jesus Christ he is still the same God.

What exactly does not accepting Christ in the Eucharist do? Is that pleasing to God?
 
rinnie said:
Could you supply an official Church statement that says that the Eastern Catholic Church claims that Muslims do not adore the One God.
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Why? I am not a robot that needs to be told that the muslims do not worship the one true God. I know that they do not worship the one true God…the Triune God.

If a pope says differently…I am not obligated to believe him. Eh?

Gal 1:8-10
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
 
jam070406 said:
Again,
Muslims do not know the Creator, Jesus Christ.
Nostra Aetate affirms this by stating Muslims believe the Creator is “one god living and subsisting in himself”
This is not the same God, the Creator, whom is 3 persons subsisting in one Godhead.
It goes on to say that they try to profess that this “one god living and subsisting in himself” is the God of Abraham. It is not. The God of Abraham is the Holy Trinity. Jesus said, “Before Abraham I I Am”
Furthermore, if you read the footnote of section 5 from Nostra Aetate you will realize it is a Pope admonishing a Muslim leader that those lacking love do not know the Father. Ie: Muslims.
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I know Nostra Aetate is relevant, but the quote I gave is from Lumen Gentium - Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. Again, I will repeat: “among [those who acknowledge the Creator] there are the Mohammedans.”

It’s right there. In some sense you must assent that Muslims “acknowledge the Creator” and “adore the one and merciful God.”
passer_by said:
Sigh, so according to your logic, all religions, as long as they espouse a monotheistic God is worshiping the God of Abraham 🤷

You really don’t see a problem with how you define similarity here?

I can make up any religion tomorrow, have a monotheistic God in it, I would even thrown in some books from the OT together with some other books I would write advocating extermination of all other religions and label it as the Book of Rinnie which was divinely revealed by God. Now when the followers of that faith worship that God, is that the same God?
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My answer to this is the same as Contarini’s answer to the question that was posed to him about combining Nazism and theism.
 
Mickey said:
Muslims deny Christ…therefore they do not worship the God of Abraham…the one true God…the Triune God.
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Yes Mickey that is what YOU keep saying. But the Catholic Church says different. The Pope who is the Vicar of Christ disagrees with you.
 
rinnie said:
Yes Mickey that is what YOU keep saying. But the Catholic Church says different. The Pope who is the Vicar of Christ disagrees with you.
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Rinnie, you know from my posts that I’m with you on this, but I have a recommendation.

Can we keep the appeals to authority (i.e. the CCC, Lumen Gentium, the pope) only when we’re addressing the replies and arguments of Catholics like jam?

Mickey is being perfectly consistent in rejecting what the pope says, because he believes the Latin Church is in schism from the true church. Some Orthodox Christians even believe that Rome is in heresy on certain matters… so I don’t think we can throw the weight of papal authority and Catholic teaching at Mickey. Let’s save it for the Catholics who are arguing with us. 🙂
 
Mickey said:
Why? I am not a robot that needs to be told that the muslims do not worship the one true God. I know that they do not worship the one true God…the Triune God.

If a pope says differently…I am not obligated to believe him. Eh?

Gal 1:8-10
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
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What does this have to do with the God Of Abraham and the God of the Jews and the God of Christians all being the Same ONE TRUE GOD?🤷
 
rinnie said:
But the Catholic Church says different. The Pope who is the Vicar of Christ disagrees with you.
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A comment written by a pope in error does not trump Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

What have pre-VII popes popes said?
 
Mickey said:
A comment written by a pope in error does not trump Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

What have pre-VII popes popes said?
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IT is not a Comment Mickey, it is an official Statement of the teaching of the Catholic Church.

The CCC is a statement of the Church’s faith and of Catholic Doctrine attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magesterium.

That is much more then a mere comment.
 
QUOTE
Every time they point out God commanding nasty things in the Qur’an, or teaching that He has no Son, or things like that, they think they’ve proved that our God and theirs cannot possibly the same. For some reason they seem incapable of understanding that it can be the same God, and that the Qur’an is simply dead wrong on those counts.
**
Two simple questions.
1 Who do you consider to be the “Author” of the Bible?
2 Who do you consider to be the “Author” of the Qur’an**?

QUOTE
Anyone who approaches this matter from the “whose god is whose/whose god is right” perspective is doing so from an intellectually primitive perspective philosophically wedded to early western polytheism.

Somwewhat uncharitable, un-Christian and presumptuous. IMO

QUOTE
Mickey is being perfectly consistent in rejecting what the pope says, because he believes the Latin Church is in schism from the true church. Some Orthodox Christians even believe that Rome is in heresy on certain matters… so I don’t think we can throw the weight of papal authority and Catholic teaching at Mickey. Let’s save it for the Catholics who are arguing with us.

Somwewhat uncharitable and un-Christian IMO

Prace be with you
Francis.
 
passer_by said:
Sigh, so according to your logic, all religions, as long as they espouse a monotheistic God is worshiping the God of Abraham 🤷

You really don’t see a problem with how you define similarity here?

I can make up any religion tomorrow, have a monotheistic God in it, I would even thrown in some books from the OT together with some other books I would write advocating extermination of all other religions and label it as the Book of Rinnie which was divinely revealed by God. Now when the followers of that faith worship that God, is that the same God?
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Sure, though I think you may be a bit fuzzy on the definition of “monotheistic.” Monotheistic does not just mean that you only worship one God, but that you ascribe to God qualities such that there could only possibly be one of Him. Sothe silly examples some people come up with such as “if I say that my Cadillac is God, is that the true God?” are irrelevant.

You can have a false (or largely false–nothing can ever manage to be completely false) religion based on the true God. This is the point most people are overlooking or denying in this debate.
What is your definition of “same”? Is it that they are all monotheistic? If that is your definition, bravo! Good!
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But normal people don’t judge similarity that way.
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How are you defining “normal” people?

I’m interested in how Christians have traditionally defined it. And they have traditionally said that any monotheist is speaking of the true God.

That does not mean that all the things monotheists believe about God are true, or that their way of worshiping God is pleasing to God. Those are separate issues.

Edwin
 
jam070406 said:
Are the 5 pillars his inscrutible decrees? What is that???
Is traveling to Mecca before you die to bow before the big black box a requirement of the one true God?
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Why do you continually assume that if Muslims are speaking of the true God when they say “Allah,” then everything they say Allah has commanded must be commanded by God?

What prevents us from saying that they are wrong about what God has commanded?

It’s as if you and Mickey come up to this obvious distinction and then vault right over it, oblivious. You refuse to notice it even though it’s been pointed out to you over and over again.

Edwin
 
Fone_Bone_2001 said:
I know Nostra Aetate is relevant, but the quote I gave is from Lumen Gentium - Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. Again, I will repeat: “among [those who acknowledge the Creator] there are the Mohammedans.”

It’s right there. In some sense you must assent that Muslims “acknowledge the Creator” and “adore the one and merciful God.”

My answer to this is the same as Contarini’s answer to the question that was posed to him about combining Nazism and theism.
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The paragraph in Lumen Gentium that you quote starts with “Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God”
Note: “have not received the Gospel” “people of God”

“On account of their fathers this people (who have not received the Gospel) remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.”

On account of those fathers that were faithful (people of God), God offers the gift of the Gospel, plan of salvation, to those that have not received it to their decendants.

It then goes on to say, “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind”

Those Mohammedans (not ALL) that (who) receive this gift, acknowledge the Creator Jesus, and profess the faith of Abraham, like their fathers (who became people of God, ie: Christians) , will adore the one God (Trinity) along with us, who on the last day will judge mankind (Jesus)

It also says later down:

"Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,
 
Contarini said:
Why do you continually assume that if Muslims are speaking of the true God when they say “Allah,” then everything they say Allah has commanded must be commanded by God?

What prevents us from saying that they are wrong about what God has commanded?

It’s as if you and Mickey come up to this obvious distinction and then vault right over it, oblivious. You refuse to notice it even though it’s been pointed out to you over and over again.

Edwin
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It’s the “god” that they follow, per their book, that prescribed these things.
 
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