Syncretistic prayers with Muslims... any advice?

[jam070406]

Monotheistic does not just mean that you only worship one God, but that you ascribe to God qualities such that there could only possibly be one of Him.

Yes and violence is one quality ascribed to the Islamic god. Which is false. God is love. Therefore the god Muslims worship is false.

 

[rinnie]

It is not binding for Roman Catholics.

Mickey how can it be approved by the Apostolic Authority as a statement of the Church’s Faith and of catholic doctrine attested to or illumined by SS the AT and the Church’s Magisterium, to be a Valid and Legitimate teaching instrument, and then not be binding?

We believe the Pope is the True Vicar of Christ and can teach in his name. How can we say that and then say but we do not have to believe everything he teaches?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Children…

 

[jakasaki]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/nun_slapping_ruler_hg_clr-1.gif

Children…

This is the only and one post on here which got my attention…

With a big belly laugh…



I’m still laughing…!!!

 

[rinnie]

The CCC is a means by which the bishops in union with the Pope present the teaching of Christ with an authentic voice and with the authority of the Lord.

 

[jakasaki]

The OP needs to return with 'DETAILS" of how, what and when.

Details!!!

 

[jam070406]

Rinnie, Here is a good read. Some excerpts:

There is only one salvific economy of the One and Triune God, realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, actualized with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, and extended in its salvific value to all humanity and to the entire universe: “No one, therefore, can enter into communion with God except through Christ, by the working of the Holy Spirit”.

For all of us, who are sons of God and constitute one family in Christ,(279) as long as we remain in communion with one another in mutual charity and in one praise of the most holy Trinity, are corresponding with the intimate vocation of the Church and partaking in foretaste the liturgy of consummate glory.(25*) For when Christ shall appear and the glorious resurrection of the dead will take place, the glory of God will light up the heavenly City and the Lamb will be the lamp thereof.(280) Then the whole Church of the saints in the supreme happiness of charity will adore God and “the Lamb who was slain”,(281) proclaiming with one voice: “To Him who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb blessing, and honor, and glory, and dominion forever and ever”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, Here is a good read. Some excerpts:

There is only one salvific economy of the One and Triune God, realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, actualized with the cooperation of the Holy Spirit, and extended in its salvific value to all humanity and to the entire universe: “No one, therefore, can enter into communion with God except through Christ, by the working of the Holy Spirit”.

For all of us, who are sons of God and constitute one family in Christ,(279) as long as we remain in communion with one another in mutual charity and in one praise of the most holy Trinity, are corresponding with the intimate vocation of the Church and partaking in foretaste the liturgy of consummate glory.(25*) For when Christ shall appear and the glorious resurrection of the dead will take place, the glory of God will light up the heavenly City and the Lamb will be the lamp thereof.(280) Then the whole Church of the saints in the supreme happiness of charity will adore God and “the Lamb who was slain”,(281) proclaiming with one voice: “To Him who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb blessing, and honor, and glory, and dominion forever and ever”

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Trust me I believe ever word of this. I totally understand that it is Christ who brings salvation to all the world. I have never been in denial of any of the Church teachings.

But it is by the Common bond that we DO have in God that unites us to the Jews and Muslims. It is that Common bond that will be brought to light and reveal to all the entire truth of The Trinity.

But our most common bond that we have with our separated brothers and sisters is prayer. Our own prayer begins with a sense of humility before God. We recognize that in any conversation, it is God who calls us and it is only with his grace that we are capable of responding. It is from Abraham we learn that prayer is an act of faith and at the same times callls for the strengthing of our faith.

In the fullness of time God sent his Son who was the final and most perfect mediation that took place between us and the Father.

I pray in silent prayer that the Muslims and Jews can all come to this understanding and gain our perfect mediator that we have in Christ.

But that is not of our power, it will be given to then by the Power of the Holy Spirit when God feels they can accept this truth.

But we still have a duty to teach the truth about our faith as it was given to us. And in the same time we have the duty to never reject prayer. Prayer is how Abraham and then Christ taught us how to relate to the Father.

Prayer is the only way that we can all speak to God. It is only by our Prayers and our Love for one another they we can ever bring all People into the arms of Christ.

 

[jam070406]

I’m interested in how Christians have traditionally defined it. And they have traditionally said that any monotheist is speaking of the true God.

1. The proper response to God’s revelation is “the obedience of faith (Rom 16:26; cf. Rom 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) by which man freely entrusts his entire self to God, offering ‘the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals’ and freely assenting to the revelation given by him”.15 Faith is a gift of grace: “in order to have faith, the grace of God must come first and give assistance; there must also be the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and gives ‘to everyone joy and ease in assenting to and believing in the truth’”.16

The obedience of faith implies acceptance of the truth of Christ’s revelation, guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself:17 “Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed”.18 Faith, therefore, as “a gift of God” and as “a supernatural virtue infused by him”,19 involves a dual adherence: to God who reveals and to the truth which he reveals, out of the trust which one has in him who speaks. Thus, “we must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”.20

For this reason, the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held. If faith is the acceptance in grace of revealed truth, which “makes it possible to penetrate the mystery in a way that allows us to understand it coherently”,21 then belief, in the other religions, is that sum of experience and thought that constitutes the human treasury of wisdom and religious aspiration, which man in his search for truth has conceived and acted upon in his relationship to God and the Absolute.22

This distinction is not always borne in mind in current theological reflection. Thus, theological faith (the acceptance of the truth revealed by the One and Triune God) is often identified with belief in other religions, which is religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself. This is one of the reasons why the differences between Christianity and the other religions tend to be reduced at times to the point of disappearance.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[Mickey]

It’s as if you and Mickey come up to this obvious distinction and then vault right over it, oblivious. You refuse to notice it even though it’s been pointed out to you over and over again.

I would say the same back to you. It seems that you and others are oblivious.

We know that the muslims knowingly and consciously reject the Triune God. We know that they worship a non-Triune god. Therefore, they are not worshipping the one true God of Abraham…the Triune God.

 

[Mickey]

How can we say that and then say but we do not have to believe everything he teaches?

Because your Church teaches that you are not held to believe everything the pope writes which is not ex-cathedra…or am I mistaken? Are you supposed to believe everything the pope writes…by pain of mortal sin?

 

[Mickey]

But it is by the Common bond that we DO have in God that unites us to the Jews and Muslims.

I do not think that the millions of Christian martyrs who were murdered by the muslims would have thought there was a common bond…with a belief system that denies Christ. They happily went to their deaths before they would admit such a thing.

But our most common bond that we have with our separated brothers and sisters is prayer.

I thought the protestants were your separated brethren…are the muslims also your separated brethren?

 

[passer_by]

Sure, though I think you may be a bit fuzzy on the definition of “monotheistic.” Monotheistic does not just mean that you only worship one God, but that you ascribe to God qualities such that there could only possibly be one of Him. Sothe silly examples some people come up with such as “if I say that my Cadillac is God, is that the true God?” are irrelevant.

You can have a false (or largely false–nothing can ever manage to be completely false) religion based on the true God. This is the point most people are overlooking or denying in this debate.

I think this is exactly the point you are overlooking as well.

Your perspective that 'if one intends to worship a one true God with certain properties of the God of Christianity then it is the same God" is a definition not many buy in to.

For me at least, to say that something is ‘this much similar’ so it is the same has no meaning.

I measure similarity in terms of what that entity is claimed to teach. For me, to argue about whether the person answering the prayers of Muslims is the same God as Christianity is nonsensical. The answer is an obvious yes since there is no other God to answer anyway. Same applies for the Hindu who prays. The God that answers is the God of Christianity.

But for me to then claim that the Hindu or the Muslim is worshiping the same God is problematic. I have to change my whole definition of how I measure similarities to agree with you.

I’m interested in how Christians have traditionally defined it. And they have traditionally said that any monotheist is speaking of the true God.

I think context is important. Depending on the focus, if it is for ecumenical activity, I think its useful to say they all speak of the true God.

But in terms of understanding or teaching a faith, I don’t think there is a rigorous definition that avoids logical inconsistency and still go on to claim that Monotheist God = one true God.

That does not mean that all the things monotheists believe about God are true, or that their way of worshiping God is pleasing to God. Those are separate issues.

Exactly, and for some, that is how they view the God of a religion.

One looks at what and how that God Divinely Reveled himself, what he commands etc to decide if this is the same God as Christianity. In a way, this is what we all intuitively do. If I wanted to verify that it is you who would be making the reply post to me, I would try to evaluate what you say against things I know that you definitely hold as true. If they don’t match up, I won’t say the poster is still Contarini, I would say its someone else.

I think the thing to note is that since what can be known from natural knowledge is the existence of a transcendent being, the ones who worship such a being (like Muslims) (and not cows or things of the world like Hindus) are certainly more pleasing to God. But to say that we are worshiping the same God can only be accepted as a teaching or rigorous position if we look at similarity under the same definition.

So I feel that many on this forum that disagree with the view that God of Islam = God of Abraham is thinking along these lines. No one has given reasons for accepting the definition of similarity required for understanding Allah to be the One True God. Rather the debate seems to be centered on each side giving reasons for showing how it is similar or dissimilar depending on their definition of similarity. Since the ones claiming that it is the One True God do suggest a non-intuitive way of looking at similarity, I think the onus is on them to provide reasons for adopting such a perspective.

So for someone else to adopt that methodology, there must be a strict definition of that similarity and reasons to adopt it.

The Church suggests adopting such a definition in ecumenical activity which I completely agree with. But then the evaluation of actions done while holding this view fall under the do’s and don’t’s of Ecumenism rather than on whether a certain action agrees with such an agreement.

This is why in my posts answering the question of ‘prayer with Muslims’, I tried to answer along the lines of Ecumenism rather than whether they actually worship the same God or not.

 

[Christina79]

Muslims have a distorted vision of God, as do Jews.

Praying with them gives no fruitful outcome.

I don’t even think it’d be a stretch to say that the Muslim God was not the same as ours.

Very definitely, their god is NOT our God. Jesus speaks clearly on this matter. I referenced a few of these times below.

I’d rather pray for them than pray a watered-down prayer with them.

I don’t recall the prophet Elijah praying with Baal priests.

Very well stated!

I’m quite sure they prayed in separate rooms when he was there kissing their Quran.

Isn’t this called Christlam, there are Christlam Churches in the US now.

I would only pray with other Christians.

I wonder what they REALLY thought of this. Do you have any idea how many people have been killed for even touching the Quoran while being “unclean”? And what would be considered unclean??

“No one but the pure (tahir) shall touch the Quran.”
First, “tahir” may be in reference to a believer. This is understood from the verse of the Quran,
“Verily, the polytheists are impure” (al-Tauba 28).

I can ASSURE you (or you may just do your own researcher) that the Muslims do consider those who believe in the Trinity, as being polytheists.

Yes I agree. Nothing personally against Muslins of course, but us Christians do have to stay true to our faith.

Very true, we must stay true to our faith.

But how is praying with Muslims to the Same God together in one place not staying true to our faith. Are we not one nation under GOD?

Does God not love the Jews, Muslims, Christians all the same? Do Jews Muslims, Christians not all have the same true God of Abraham,

That is the problem…their god is NOT our God.

ABSOLUTELY God loves all. John 3:16 For God SO loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

No they do NOT in any way have the same father as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ephesians 5:7 Be ye not therefore partakers with them. 8 For you were heretofore darkness, but now light in the Lord. Walk then as children of the light. 9 For the fruit of the light is in all goodness, and justice, and truth; 10 Proving what is well pleasing to God: 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of. 13 But all things that are reproved, are made manifest by the light; for all that is made manifest is light.

We have been called to reprove the unfruitful works of darkness, and in so doing THEN our light will be made manifest…NOT by having fellowship with them.

 

[couponfit]

Everyone is included in the plan for salvation. The grace of Christ is available to everyone if they choose to accept.

Those who are outside the Catholic Church, are outside the mystical body of Christ. They can have various degrees of relationship with the Mystical Body of Christ but they are outside. (POPE PIUS XII - Mystici Corporis Christi)

So our goal is to bring them back in to the Catholic Church. That has always been and will always be the goal of our actions.

Praying together is fine with an ecumenical focus. But the church in no way advocates praying with Muslims in the sense that 'everything is fine, you be a good Muslim and I will be a Good Catholic"

I agree with Mystici Corporis Christi but the question is do you agree with Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium?

Specifically how would you or someone pray with a muslim “as if everything is not fine”?

 

[Mickey]

This is why in my posts answering the question of ‘prayer with Muslims’, I tried to answer along the lines of Ecumenism rather than whether they actually worship the same God or not.

I agree with much of what you say…but I will add that much of the time…ecumenism goes too far.

 

[couponfit]

This is the part that I question and believe to be in gross error. Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham…whose God is the Triune God.

They profess the faith of mohammed. Therefore they do not adore the one (Triune) God.
I have already done that. My priest gives a different answer than yours.

And when I was Eastern Catholic…I spoke with priests and monks who agreed.

Then since you spoke to your priest and you have reviewed the documents then I would take that into your thought and not my words. I can honestly see your concern and many catholics wrestle with this (including priests, bishops and cardinals including Pope Benedict before he was appointed Pontiff). You are definitely in good company. For what it’s worth the muslims who pray with Catholics receive in more extreme concerns, hate, and even violence at times for joining in interfaith prayer. I had posted comment by Muslims, mostly leaders, who felt blessed and having learned from attending interfaith prayer even though they were received more criticism than catholics seem to on the issue.

 

[passer_by]

I agree with Mystici Corporis Christi but the question is do you agree with Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium?

Specifically how would you or someone pray with a muslim “as if everything is not fine”?

I agree with LG.

I think prayer should be focused on the ultimate goal of getting them to the Catholic Church. So in this sense, it can’t be regular prayer sessions with the actual intention of worshiping. That is what I meant to say. The goal must be clear.

 

[Loknar]

Sometimes, events like these interfaith prayer meetings can cause scandal to those who might be termed “the weaker brother [or sister].” I would think that it would be better to avoid engaging in such activities if they damage the faith of sincere Christians. There are certainly other ways to dialogue with Muslims (or others) without taking part in meetings that cause confusion or issues of conscience.

 

[Mickey]

Then since you spoke to your priest and you have reviewed the documents then I would take that into your thought and not my words. I can honestly see your concern and many catholics wrestle with this (including priests, bishops and cardinals including Pope Benedict before he was appointed Pontiff). You are definitely in good company.

Thank you couponfit. On May 14, 1999, I was a Latin Catholic (38 years and counting). My parents and much of my extended family remain Latin Catholic.

That was the day that Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran. I was scandalized. Many were scandalized. Deacons, priests, bishops, and monks were scandalized. Shortly thereafter…my journey took me East…first to the Byzantine Catholic Church…and finally to Holy Orthodoxy. The Pope’s over-reaching gesture of ecumenism was not the reason that I sojourned Eastward (there were many reasons). But I think there were many faithful Catholics who were scandalized by this gesture…and it saddens me to this day.

Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on us.