Syro Malabar Bishop states, "Knanaya Diocese was a mistake by the Holy See"?

[Thomas48]

what exactly are the differences between the knanaya and st thomas christians?
i mean,culturally,not historically?

There is a whole list of wedding traditions that distinguish the Knanayas as well as a few social customs. The archdiocese website lists a few of these. I’ve also added a video of a very old Knanaya Wedding dating back to the 1960’s. This video gives examples of the few of many Knanaya traditions.

kottayamad.org/knanaya-tradition/
youtube.com/watch?v=QEN1UW86xdI

Has any of that occurred in the US? Have Knanaya Catholics been unwelcome in the larger Church? I’ve seen the opposite - both Malankara and Malabar priests going out of their way to be welcoming to Knanaya faithful.

An example, the late Aboon Mor Dioscorus is Knanaya, he is remembered every year in the Malankara Syriac Catholic Church and commemorated honorably, by everyone. He was our bishop as much as yours.

Of course the situation today is fine, in my previous post I meant historic issues between the two communities. By the late 1900’s the animosity between the two groups greatly subsided. Today only people who wish to fuel fires try to create enmity between our two communities. Though, it is very sad when you see such things like in my original post, where Syro Malabar bishops state our diocese should have never been created. It is very hard for us Knanayas to be under a bishop who states “the Holy See made a mistake in creating Kottayam Archdiocese”.

Today though our communities are at a peace, the Knanaya have had a never ending battle with Syro Malabar Hierarchy. The main reason is over suppression of traditions and further development of Knanaya structures outside of Kerala. It is not only in the U.S that endogamy practice is restrained but basically anywhere the Knanaya diaspora travels outside of Kerala. Also once again the majority over minority issue, if the Knanayas wish for further development, they must go through the Syro Malabar Synod in which we only have two seats out of forty plus. Once again I would like to mention the analogy, “both of these communities can be seen as a “red hat group” and a “blue hat group” that were members of the same religious tradition. The only difference we see is that one of these groups became the majority and thus the authority among of the religious tradition.”

Random but I came across a very beautiful Jacobite wedding song called “Subha Chinnam Thaan Sleeva”. I was curious do Malankara Catholics also sing this song during their weddings? This is a link to the video.

youtube.com/watch?v=EyffVwuy_hg

 

[Jack007]

they are good customs, particularly the blessing. why arent these practiced by other st thomas christians.

 

[Jack007]

i ask forgiveness on behalf of those who disrespected your grandmother.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Random but I came across a very beautiful Jacobite wedding song called “Subha Chinnam Thaan Sleeva”. I was curious do Malankara Catholics also sing this song during their weddings? This is a link to the video.

youtube.com/watch?v=EyffVwuy_hg

Jacobite and Malankara Catholic weddings are exactly the same - songs, prayers, actions, etc.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Is Knanaya endogamy a racial endogamy, as in only those with ethnic roots back to Kerala India may be members of this diocese? I’ve never heard of this group before.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Is Knanaya endogamy a racial endogamy, as in only those with ethnic roots back to Kerala India may be members of this diocese? I’ve never heard of this group before.

It’s not strictly racial or ethnic, because DNA shows genetically the race and ethnicity of the Knanaya community is similar to other St. Thomas Christians. It seems to me, sometime between the 16th and 19th Cent. one sect or group among the St. Thomas Christians or some group that converted from Hinduism due to St. Thomas Christian influence started to practice endogamy more strictly than had been practiced earlier (this was considered unacceptable by the majority and denounced), this caused a rift. The reason endogamy was practiced more strictly has recently been explained as due to the practices of the Old Testament, but this may have been a later explanation for either a pre-conversion Hindu practice, or - due to the caste mentality of the era - not being allowed to marry those of the wider St. Thomas group, because of previous Hindu affiliation or some intoleration of some practices. This endogomaous practice was tolerated by both the Catholic bishops and the Orthodox bishops of which this stricter-endogamous community belonged, they were allowed their own parishes due to some of their practices not being fully tolerated within the wider St. Thomas Christian community. This community has come to believe itself to have some connection to a merchant and his entourage who may have been Jewish-Christian, Assyrian-Persian Christian, Syriac Christian, or Armenian Christian and traveled to India either in the 3rd, 7th, 11th, or 13th Century.

 

[Jack007]

It’s not strictly racial or ethnic, because DNA shows genetically the race and ethnicity of the Knanaya community is similar to other St. Thomas Christians. It seems to me, sometime between the 16th and 19th Cent. one sect or group among the St. Thomas Christians or some group that converted from Hinduism due to St. Thomas Christian influence started to practice endogamy more strictly than had been practiced earlier (this was considered unacceptable by the majority and denounced), this caused a rift. The reason endogamy was practiced more strictly has recently been explained as due to the practices of the Old Testament, but this may have been a later explanation for either a pre-conversion Hindu practice, or - due to the caste mentality of the era - not being allowed to marry those of the wider St. Thomas group, because of previous Hindu affiliation or some intoleration of some practices. This endogomaous practice was tolerated by both the Catholic bishops and the Orthodox bishops of which this stricter-endogamous community belonged, they were allowed their own parishes due to some of their practices not being fully tolerated within the wider St. Thomas Christian community. This community has come to believe itself to have some connection to a merchant and his entourage who may have been Jewish-Christian, Assyrian-Persian Christian, Syriac Christian, or Armenian Christian and traveled to India either in the 3rd, 7th, 11th, or 13th Century.

I don’t agree

 

[Thomas48]

SyroMalankara, that is a good theory. I for one have always been a Knanaya who doesn’t care about our origins but has a great love for our numerous cultural practices. The problem with Knanaya history is that our origins are very very unclear due to only an oral tradition and lack of written records. There are numerous theories to our emergence, these are a few.

-A converted Hindu sect who joined the Thomas Christians.
-A group of Middle Eastern Christians who traveled with the merchant Knai Thoma and bishop Urha Mar Yoseph to India in order to strengthen Christianity.
-A community from Tamil Nadu who joined the Thomas Christians.
-A branch off of the Jews of Kerala who converted to Christianity and joined the Thomas Christians.

These theories are the few that I have heard, if there are more I do not know. Out of these theories the most famous and in stone is that the Knanayas are Middle Eastern Christians who traveled with merchant Knai Thoma to Kerala to strengthen Christianity. Interestingly enough, the Knanaya Christians narrate this theory in their many ancient traditional songs. Also the majority of the Knanaya songs narrate many stories and parts of the Old Testament. This theory of origins is what Kottayam Archdiocese is based off of and is also written into the official history of the Syro Malabar Church and Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church.

In old Portuguese records they call the groups of Christians in Kerala as the descendants of St. Thomas and the other as the descendants of Knai Thoma (Thomas of Cana). These are some records from Portuguese Bishop Francis Roz-

(1604)- “One group were the descendants of Thomas of Cana and the other, the descendants of those Christians who lived there before the arrival of Thomas of Cana.”

(1604)- “In 1603, quarrels at Udiamper ( Udaymperoor), and Candanate. Christians of St. Thomas descending from Thomas Cana are few. They are in Udiamper ( Udaymperoor) and in the big church of Carturte ( Kaduthuruthy) and the big Church of Cotete ( Kottayam) and in Turigure. ( Torure )”

(1604)- “He says that one group were the descendants of Thomas of Cana and the other, the descendants of those Christians who lived there before the arrival of Thomas of Cana. The descendants of Thomas of Cana always kept themselves without mixing with other Christians.”

In other writings of Bishop Francis Roz he continue to write that these two sects had regular quarrels over many affairs. He also writes that the Christians of Thomas of Cana own four Churches (it is historically known that this community owned 5 separate churches).

The first time ever the theory that Knanayas were Middle Eastern Christians was written down in the 1700’s by a Knanaya Jacobite priest. This document is kept in one of the older Knanaya Jacobite Churches though I’m not sure which one exactly.

According to Knanaya DNA tests the community has much genetic background from the Middle East as well as from India. The author of the test both supports and negates the theory of Middle Eastern origin since the DNA shows both Indian and Middle Eastern origins. Here is a link to that test-

docs.google.com/file/d/0B8wq5Pgr_SaEOWJvdUhGSW1QSEk/edit?pli=1

What I have always believed is if the Middle Eastern origin theory is true, the only problem we see is unwritten history. There is a huge more than thousand year gap if we are to follow the idea of Middle Eastern origins. This is a rough timeline-

• (345) Knanayas arrive to Kerala
• (400) Kadhuthuruthy St. Mary’s Church is built by said Middle Easterners.
• (1500-1600s) Portuguese mention two communities among Kerala Christians.
• (1700’s) Knanaya Jacobite priest writes down the history of the Knanaya Community (Middle Eastern Theory).
• (1800s-1900s) Numerous written records by both Knanayas and Thomas Christians on both community origins.

Besides these four mentions, there seems to be no other written historical records about Knanaya Community. In my personal opinion (following the DNA tests) I have always believed that this community may have been Middle Easterners but for a period of time they were non endogamous, then later they perhaps thought they were losing there traditional practices due to in-culturation and once again became endogamous. It is also known that numerous scholars have studied the Knanaya Community and have linked there many traditions to that of the Middle East.

In summary there is no agreed upon (by some) origin of the community but the Middle Eastern theory is the most strongly used by both the Syro Malabar Church and Syriac Orthodox Church when referring to the Knanayas Christians that they house. This theory is also supported by Knanaya oral history and cultural songs/traditions. As a Knananite my origins as a Middle Eastern Christian or Converted Hindu Community doesn’t make a difference. I only care that our list of wonderful traditions and culture are always upheld and never forgotten.

 

[Jack007]

i ask forgiveness on behalf of those who disrespected your grandmother.

There have been talks that the CBCI (Catholic Bishops Council of India) have issued statements that Knanaya centered parishes outside of Kerala will no longer be allowed at all

and for this matter too and for everything done against the knanaya community.

PS, are knanaya parishes allowed now?

 

[Jack007]

This is a forum rule.

DISCUSSION FORUMS

1.Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread.

I fear that moderators will close this thread, so I opened a new one at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=908949 . it is titled “knanaya community.” posters can reply to posts here in that thread, so that we won’t be breaking rules.

 

[Thomas48]

and for this matter too and for everything done against the knanaya community.

PS, are knanaya parishes allowed now?

Dear Brother, Thank you for your kind words towards my community and the struggles we face, that means alot to me. The posts in this thread are all around the same topic so it should be fine according to forum rules. At the moment it seems that only due to the Knanaya communities defense of our culture that our parishes are still allowed. I remember when I asked my priest about the endogamy issue he simply stated that even Mar Jacob Angadiath knows that the Knanaya Community will only give membership to Knanayas but for the Holy See’s sake, His Excellency must repeat the contents of the Re-script of 1986 (which is the document that disallowed endogamy in North American Knanaya Churches). My priest actually repeatedly stated that there’s no point of us trying to protest/rally/etc because our membership rules will never change, Knanaya priest will always only give membership to full Knanayas.

 

[Jack007]

Dear Brother, Thank you for your kind words towards my community and the struggles we face, that means alot to me.

You are most welcome.

The posts in this thread are all around the same topic so it should be fine according to forum rules.

the topic was the bishops statement on the “mistake”, which is not our point of discussion.

At the moment it seems that only due to the Knanaya communities defense of our culture that our parishes are still allowed.

I see.

I remember when I asked my priest about the endogamy issue he simply stated that even Mar Jacob Angadiath knows that the Knanaya Community will only give membership to Knanayas but for the Holy See’s sake, His Excellency must repeat the contents of the Re-script of 1986 (which is the document that disallowed endogamy in North American Knanaya Churches). My priest actually repeatedly stated that there’s no point of us trying to protest/rally/etc because our membership rules will never change, Knanaya priest will always only give membership to full Knanayas.

the boundaries of the archdiocese of kottayam is spread to the boundaries of the syromalabar church, so the ac of k can set up parishes at the diocese of chicago. this will be a huge leap.

and question, if two knanaya and stc families are ready to give their children to either, wll the community object?

and another, isnt it irrational to think that the knanaya wont leave the church, no matter how they are suppressed, in favor of other churches where their culture is more valued?

 

[Peter_J]

… then how different are you from the Jews?

I don’t know the answer, but I have to wonder why you ask. In terms of how different someone is from the Jews, what is the correct degree (if there is one)?

It seems to me we should define ourselves by our own beliefs, not by how different they are from someone else’s beliefs.

 

[Jack007]

Brother, all I can say it is wrong what you community is doing. It not a practice which christians should live by. The purpose is to be one. If you put barriers like blood and tradition then how different are you from the Jews? I understand your small population but it is wrong. Now we can’t go against god can we? Forget what priests or any man say. If the word of God which is the bible is not supporting it. Then please stop. You will be judged for you actions at the end.

you dont live in kerala, do you?

western culture
north indian
tamil
indigenous hindu
st thomas christian
knanaya

each one is affected by all in the top and affects all in bottom, if you know what i mean. knanaya culture is ,believe me, almost non existent outside the district of kottayam.

 

[SyroMalankara]

and another, isnt it irrational to think that the knanaya wont leave the church, no matter how they are suppressed, in favor of other churches where their culture is more valued?

There are only two legitimate communities of Knanaya: the Catholic one within the Syro-Malabar Church which follows the same East Syriac Tradition, also including some 20-30 Malankara Catholic Knanaya parishes of the West Syriac Tradition; and the Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Knanaya community of the West Syriac Tradition under Antioch.

Some Catholics may choose to go to the Syriac Orthodox Church, but then the majority are abandoning the entire East Syriac Tradition and union with the Pope of Rome and adopting the West Syriac and union with the Patriarch of Antioch. So how important was Tradition to these people who switch? It seems to me, endogamy was originally a TOOL for preserving valuable Christian Traditions in a see of non-Christians. Now endogamy is being turned into the end-goal with no purpose other than itself.

 

[Jack007]

Some Catholics may choose to go to the Syriac Orthodox Church, but then the majority are abandoning the entire East Syriac Tradition and union with the Pope of Rome and adopting the West Syriac and union with the Patriarch of Antioch

I thought that syriac orthodox church follows west syriac tradition and is under the patriarch of antioch?

 

[SyroMalankara]

I thought that syriac orthodox church follows west syriac tradition and is under the patriarch of antioch?

It does. My statements were regarding Knanaya Catholics who follow the Syro-Malabar Tradition, wanting to leave and join the Syriac Orthodox Knanaya community.

 

[Thomas48]

I see. the boundaries of the archdiocese of kottayam is spread to the boundaries of the syromalabar church, so the ac of k can set up parishes at the diocese of chicago. this will be a huge leap.

Though we have the St. Thomas Syro Malabar Diocese in Chicago it is directly under the Holy See, so in fact North America is not a territory of the Syro Malabar Church. In India outside of Kerala it can be said that Kottayam Diocese has jurisdiction in Syro Malabar areas like New Delhi, yet the Knanayas there still cannot practice endogamy. In the Syro Malabar Diocese of Kalyan (North India), its Archbishop Mar Bharanikulangara openly mocked Knanaya Catholics in his circular saying that our traditions “brainwash our children and that we teach them Syro Malabar Catholics are untouchables”.

This is a link to that circular-
docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxqYW1lc2tvdHRvb3JzcGVha2luZ3xneDoyNDY0YjA0ZGJmYTYzYjBi

I profoundly do not understand how Syro Malabar hierarchs are allowed to get away with such statements against the Knanaya Community. It’s not as if they think such things privately but they openly announce such statements like “Kottayam Diocese should never have been created” (Mar Jacob Angadiath, Chicago Diocese) and **“Knanayas brainwash and teach their children into thinking Syro Malabar Catholics are untouchables” (Mar Kuriakose Bharanikulangara, Kalyan Diocese). ** These are such examples to why I repeatedly post that the Knanaya Catholics are suppressed in the Syro Malabar Church.

and another, isnt it irrational to think that the knanaya wont leave the church, no matter how they are suppressed, in favor of other churches where their culture is more valued?

There are only two legitimate communities of Knanaya: the Catholic one within the Syro-Malabar Church which follows the same East Syriac Tradition, also including some 20-30 Malankara Catholic Knanaya parishes of the West Syriac Tradition; and the Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Knanaya community of the West Syriac Tradition under Antioch.

Some Catholics may choose to go to the Syriac Orthodox Church, but then the majority are abandoning the entire East Syriac Tradition and union with the Pope of Rome and adopting the West Syriac and union with the Patriarch of Antioch. So how important was Tradition to these people who switch? It seems to me, endogamy was originally a TOOL for preserving valuable Christian Traditions in a see of non-Christians. Now endogamy is being turned into the end-goal with no purpose other than itself.

It is true that many Knanaya Catholics have left the Syro Malabar Church and joined the Jacobite Syrian Church because Knanaya culture flourishes within it. Since inter-marriage is common among Knanaya Catholics and Jacobites, it is regular to see both groups attending each others services, there is a sense of communion between us. I myself have Knanaya Jacobite heritage from my mothers side.

I cannot say what the future holds for the community in North America and outside of Kerala in regards to maintaining culture. At the moment North American Knanayas are strongly trying to gain the attention of Syro Malabar Hierarchy. For 27 years (1986-2013) we wrote letters and tried to have meetings with our hierarchs, in which case it seemed like they mostly ignored us. Now the community has raised their voice much louder and has taken to the streets in numerous protests. This seems to be the only way to get the attention of Syro Malabar Hierarchy. Directly after the first protest, Mar George Alencherry scheduled a meeting with KCCNA officials and Kottayam Archdiocese. Now after hearing of the announced 48 hour hunger strike, we have been allowed another meeting.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hmm… I’d like to see the original letter from the Faridabad Diocesan site… this is a strange document because every other paragraph - EXCEPT for the one which says “brain-wash”, is left- aligned… this one paragraph has a once-space different in alignment, all the way down. Like someone overlaid it, but not from the original. Also, there is a tear right above the paper where that paragraph is placed. In addition, the Diocesan seal and footer are MISSING from pages 2 and 3. And under His Excellency’s signature, “Faridabad” is MISSPELLED.

 

[Thomas48]

Hmm… I’d like to see the original letter from the Faridabad Diocesan site… this is a strange document because every other paragraph - EXCEPT for the one which says “brain-wash”, is left- aligned… this one paragraph has a once-space different in alignment, all the way down. Like someone overlaid it, but not from the original. Also, there is a tear right above the paper where that paragraph is placed. In addition, the Diocesan seal and footer are MISSING from pages 2 and 3. And under His Excellency’s signature, “Faridabad” is MISSPELLED.

This circular was a huge issue in the Knanaya Community and led us to have even more distrust of Syro Malabar Hierarchy. The grammatical errors you find in it could be simple misspelling and format issues, I do not know. If this was in fact a “counterfeit” circular the fact remains that Mar Bharanikulangara never denied that he wrote it. I highly doubt that someone would go to these lengths to defame the bishop, even so his signature and seal remain on the circular. Also it was a personal circular to only the Knanaya Community of Faridabad, his secretary or himself probably did not see the importance in making it ideal.