Syro Malabar girl marry Marthomite guy with out converting! PLEASE ANSWER!

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heyy, im a Syro Malabar Catholic girl…dating a Marthomite guy. I wanted to know if it is possible for us to get married with out him converting to Syro Malabar or with out me converting to Marthoma…I really do not want to convert. If any one know the answer to my question, please let me know…

Thank You!
 
I don’t think that they will allow you to marry him in a catholic church. For that he needs to atleast say the Profession of faith(the creed) to do so. I don’t know whether there are any other requirements. As you are a catholic why don’t you try to convert him. You can pray for his conversion. It is a powerfull tool.
 
heyy, im a Syro Malabar Catholic girl…dating a Marthomite guy. I wanted to know if it is possible for us to get married with out him converting to Syro Malabar or with out me converting to Marthoma…I really do not want to convert. If any one know the answer to my question, please let me know…

Thank You!
You have to ask your priest to write your bishop for a dispensation from the regular form - remember the Marthoma church is not Catholic or Orthodox, so you need the bishop’s permission. He may not give it if he feels it is not in your best interest.

Another option for you, if you and your future spouse are willing to compromise - the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church may be right for you - this is a Catholic Church, so you wouldn’t be leaving your faith, and it’s Liturgy is the same as the Malankara and Syrian Orthodox Liturgy (the Marthoma worship service is a protestantized version of that same Liturgy).

If you are in the United States, you would need to contact:

CHANCELLOR
Rev. Fr. Roy Joseph Kaduppil
372 South Prairie Avenue
Elmhurst, Illinois 60126-4020
Phone: 630-279-1383
Fax: 630-279-1479
kaduppilroy@yahoo.com
 
Mar Thoma is a Protestent Church(marthomites will refute this obviously!) mainly having Syrian Christian Followers.(it is real hard to find a unbiased article about marthomites not written by a pro-marthomite).still:
The Mar Thoma Church of Indian is an Oriental Church born out of the Protestant Reformation. It is the product of Anglican influence on St. Thomas Christians of India during the 18th century
indianchristianity.org/marthoma.html

This church have a “external” look of traditional Eastern Rite like Jacobite/Orthodox Churches.

basically this church is made by anglican church missionaries influenced by basel mission - in Kerala state ,India.
the flow to new age cults from Syrian Christians is via this marthoma church basically in south Kerala,India. especially pathanamthitta district,parts of kottayam,quilon district etc.
the “flow” chart is like this:
jacobite/Orthodox ---->marthoma church/anglican/protestent—>csi/pentecostal/umpteen no.s of cults.

Coming to the OP:
In a Catholic way ,This thing is completely unacceptable obviously - you leaving your mother church.:o

the Solution is to have the marthomite boy join Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and have the catechism(brief) later to convert to catholicism later to be part of Syro-Malabar Church -the Mother Church guided by Our Lord.

PS:their families will have all kind of different church memberships most probably.and he may be from south kerala(thiruvalla/pathanamthitta) and that part of syrian christians are dispersed too much to pentecostal/csi/assembliesofgod/7thday adventists/Jehova Witness/etc … and almost all of these church members are very much against(violent) Syro-Malabar Church and it’s sister church Syro-Malankara Church(they mock it as reethu prasthanam ,how sick!).

May Jesus Guide You.:)Don’t Leave your Mother Church.save from brain-washing by the protestents(mar thoma church) ,you Please go ASAP to a SMC diocese ,ask help from a priest ,ask him to pray for you.🙂
 
Ok, thank you, the question makes MUCH more sense now!

I was thinking that this was just a term for the Church of the East branch that mirrors the Syro-Malabar, so I was confused as to why it would be a big deal to marry. Most Catholic Churches are very relaxed when dealing with such things regarding the Orthodox (Oriental and Eastern) and Church of the East, so I didn’t quite grasp the controversy. Christian groups of the Reformation are a different story, however, so it makes sense now. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
You have to ask your priest to write your bishop for a dispensation from the regular form - remember the Marthoma church is not Catholic or Orthodox, so you need the bishop’s permission. He may not give it if he feels it is not in your best interest.

Another option for you, if you and your future spouse are willing to compromise - the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church may be right for you - this is a Catholic Church, so you wouldn’t be leaving your faith, and it’s Liturgy is the same as the Malankara and Syrian Orthodox Liturgy (the Marthoma worship service is a protestantized version of that same Liturgy).

If you are in the United States, you would need to contact:

CHANCELLOR
Rev. Fr. Roy Joseph Kaduppil
372 South Prairie Avenue
Elmhurst, Illinois 60126-4020
Phone: 630-279-1383
Fax: 630-279-1479
kaduppilroy@yahoo.com
Wow! this is great information! i did not even think of asking the Bishop for special permission. Thank you for the suggestions EVERYBODY has put in to answer my question. I greatly appreciate it! I really do not want to convert to anything actually. I want to stay a Syro Malabar Catholic. If there is NO OTHER WAY…then i guess, i would have to think about converting to Syro Malankara. Again, I want to thank every1…who gave feed back…please feel free to suggest more ideas.
 
If you do choose to become Syro-Malankara with your spouse, it wouldn’t be a “conversion” for you since you are not changing from the Catholic Church - it would be ‘conversion’ for your spouse, since he is currently protestant. In fact, you could remain officially Syro-Malabar and simply attend the Syro-Malankara Church with your husband.
 
Mar Thoma is a Protestent Church(marthomites will refute this obviously!) mainly having Syrian Christian Followers.(it is real hard to find a unbiased article about marthomites not written by a pro-marthomite).still:
indianchristianity.org/marthoma.html

This church have a “external” look of traditional Eastern Rite like Jacobite/Orthodox Churches.

Coming to the OP:
In a Catholic way ,This thing is completely unacceptable obviously - you leaving your mother church.:o

the Solution is to have the marthomite boy join Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and have the catechism(brief) later to convert to catholicism later to be part of Syro-Malabar Church -the Mother Church guided by Our Lord.
PJK,
I am not sure what you are advocating here. If a Marthoma boy is to join the Syro-Malankara Church, he will be instructed in Catholicism, the Malankara Catechism, and convert to the Catholic Church and become a member of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. Why would you say "later to convert to catholicism… " and “Syro-Malabar - the Mother Church guided by Our Lord”?? A Syro-Malankara Catholic is not any less of a Catholic and our Church isn’t any less guided by Our Lord, and in point of fact, the Syro-Malabar Church would not be the Mother Church to a converted ex-Marthomite.
 
Wow! this is great information! i did not even think of asking the Bishop for special permission. Thank you for the suggestions EVERYBODY has put in to answer my question. I greatly appreciate it! I really do not want to convert to anything actually. I want to stay a Syro Malabar Catholic. If there is NO OTHER WAY…then i guess, i would have to think about converting to Syro Malankara. Again, I want to thank every1…who gave feed back…please feel free to suggest more ideas.
You don’t have to convert to Syro Malankara! The Syro Malabar and Syro Malankara are both One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

The Syro Malabar has a Liturgical Rite that differs than the Syro Malankara Rite, but only in form not in essence. Therefore here is what you have to do:

a. You have to your bishop and the syro Malankara bishops permission to be married in the Syro Malankara Rite. This will be easy for you, and likely not terribly hard to obtain permission for your Mar Thoma Christian fiancee.

The Malankara Rite (ritual, Mass) will look and feel a lot like what is comfortable to the Mar Thomans.

Pray the Rosary together. This will help solve your issues. Try your best to establish peace between the families about a Syro Malankara service in advance.

All will be well.

God bless.
 
Not so fast. No bishop will give permission for a marriage in a particular (sui iurus) Church that neither of the spouses belong to.
 
Not so fast. No bishop will give permission for a marriage in a particular (sui iurus) Church that neither of the spouses belong to.
Wrong. Happens a lot, mostly Roman Church bishops, with various Byzantine Rite Catholics and their Orthodox brethren. Especially when the particular Church Sui Iuris has no parishes within reasonable distance.

Happens routinely in the US for several of the smaller Slavic-Byzantine churches, as well, but with Ruthenian or Ukrainian Bishops, rather than Latin, when there are parishes of a Ukrainian or Ruthenian eparchy nearby.

The general requirement is that they expect to practice in that jurisdiction, and have residence within it’s borders.
 
Wrong. Happens a lot, mostly Roman Church bishops, with various Byzantine Rite Catholics and their Orthodox brethren. Especially when the particular Church Sui Iuris has no parishes within reasonable distance.
When the sui iurus Church isn’t within reasonable distance, the Byzantine Rite Catholic is a member of the closest Byzantine parish, as well as the local Roman parish (at least on paper).
Happens routinely in the US for several of the smaller Slavic-Byzantine churches, as well, but with Ruthenian or Ukrainian Bishops, rather than Latin, when there are parishes of a Ukrainian or Ruthenian eparchy nearby.
The general requirement is that they expect to practice in that jurisdiction, and have residence within it’s borders.
You are confusing two very different situations here. The Ukrainian or Ruthenian eparchy considers the person a member of their parish for pastoral reasons. The same situation is not prevalent in the case of a member of the Syro-Malabar Church, which has a diocese within the United States and a protestant who is obviously not a member of any Catholic parish.

For example, would it be possible for a Latin Catholic living in the US, with no roots to the Ethiopian Catholic Church, to marry a non-Catholic Methodist with the Ethiopian wedding Rites? No way, the request is unreasonable and ridiculous.
 
For example, would it be possible for a Latin Catholic living in the US, with no roots to the Ethiopian Catholic Church, to marry a non-Catholic Methodist with the Ethiopian wedding Rites? No way, the request is unreasonable and ridiculous.
Ridiculous? No. Especially if the other party were an Ethiopian Methodist.

In Ethiopia, however, it would routinely fall to an Ethiopian Church Bishop, whether they wished to marry using the Latin or Etheopian Rite. No local Latin Bishops.

In fact, canon law permits the use of ANY Catholic rite’s ceremony for any of the sacraments except ordination, if it is prudent in that particular case, and the bishop and the couple are the ones to make that decision; the bishop has final say. Each church has different requirements for marriage prep, and some (like the Roman Church) have different requirements by Diocese/Eparchy.

The ONLY sacrament restricted by Ritual Church/Church Sui Iuris enrollment is ordination; that is restricted to churches of the same Rite.

It’s no real skin off anyone’s nose if they ask the bishop. He might find it an economia to have the Marthoma in what is familiar by Rite, and yet catholic for the non-Marthoma catholic spouse.

Heck, I even know of one case where a Roman Deacon was permitted to be the celebrant for a Quaker-Anglican marriage. (Only church in the village was Catholic, both had moved in for work.) No mass, but as an economia, the Deacon was permitted by the bishop to perform the Rite of Marriage Outside the Mass.

It’s unusual. Not impossible.
 
I was looking at the Point of View of the lady who is a SMC member.and I agree ,syro-malankara church is almost the same as SMC.No offense intended.😉
PJK,
I am not sure what you are advocating here. If a Marthoma boy is to join the Syro-Malankara Church, he will be instructed in Catholicism, the Malankara Catechism, and convert to the Catholic Church and become a member of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. Why would you say "later to convert to catholicism… " and “Syro-Malabar - the Mother Church guided by Our Lord”?? A Syro-Malankara Catholic is not any less of a Catholic and our Church isn’t any less guided by Our Lord, and in point of fact, the Syro-Malabar Church would not be the Mother Church to a converted ex-Marthomite.
 
heyy, im a Syro Malabar Catholic girl…dating a Marthomite guy. I wanted to know if it is possible for us to get married with out him converting to Syro Malabar or with out me converting to Marthoma…I really do not want to convert. If any one know the answer to my question, please let me know…

Thank You!
Based on the CCEO (Canons 813, 814, et. seq. of the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches), marriage between a Catholic (Syro-Malabar) and a non-Catholic Christian (Marthomite) is prohibited, unless prior permission is granted by the Syro-Malabar Catholic Bishop.

Conditions for the grant of such prior permission:
Canon 814
For a just reason the local hierarch can grant permission; however he is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:
(1) the Catholic party declares that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of falling away from the faith and makes a sincere promise to do all in his or her power to have all the offspring baptized and educated in the Catholic Church;
(2) the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time of these promises which the Catholic party has to make, so that it is clear that the other party is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;
(3) both parties are to be instructed on the essential ends and properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either spouse.
The above conditions mirror those set by the Latin Church.

Of course, if your intended converts to your Church before the marriage ceremony, then there will be no problem.

Or, if he converts to the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church before your marriage, there will also be no problem. The only issue would be in which Church you will be celebrating your marriage.

As the bride, you should have the choice!
 
It is always better to get married from the same religious back ground.
I have found here many trying to sell the point that Marthomites are Protestants. I cannot agree to that being a Marthomite.
We have our tradition deeply routed in Eastern Orthodox Church with connections of Western Orthox and lately Anglicans. We are reformed Orthox Church holding on to the customs of pre Diampher synod of St. Thomas Christians (which was dictated by Portughese on us) We have differences with catholics by staying away from Intercession prayer to Saints, Veneratiing the icons & statues. But we are indeed Nicane Creed community. We are not protestants as we are not formed out of Anglican Church. But we has taken up their view on evangelization and study of Bible if that is wrong to do it!.
As being member of Universal Church (not the cathoilic church who claim to be the only true Church) that is part of Christ Body, I find nothing wrong in marrying a Marthomite if your love is true in front of God. Because both of you believe in Jesus Christ which is the very basic of the message of gospel to be saved. As I pointed out it is still better to have a husband of your own Church for minimizing probable conflicts. As for the tradition it is not Christian custom to go after the wife & her church, rather the wife join the Church of Husband. Sorry fellows you seem to have lot of mis-concepts about Marthoma church.
I agree that with the influence of modern churches some might think that Marthoma Church is a Protestant Church. But in reality it is not. One more thing - I can show enough and more of the ex-Catholics too with Pentecostal Churches. Personally I tried to convince them back to their mother Churches (Cathoilic) even though I am a Marthomite.
Marthoma Church have much broader outlook and hve respects for all the apostolic sister churches with due respect despite the differences.
 
We have our tradition deeply routed in Eastern Orthodox Church with connections of Western Orthox and lately Anglicans.
How are you “deeply rooted” in the Eastern Orthodox Church? There is no Eastern Orthodox Church in communion with the Marthoma Community - if anything you should claim a link to “Oriental Orthodox” - specifically the Syriac Orthodox or Malankara Orthodox Church - but even in this case, your community is not in communion with either of these Churches.
We are reformed Orthox Church holding on to the customs of pre Diampher synod of St. Thomas Christians (which was dictated by Portughese on us)
First - reformed and orthodox do not go together, that which is of the Correct and True Faith/Worship (Ortho - Correct/True Dox- Faith/Belief/Worship) needs no reform.

What are the teachings of the pre-Diamper Universal Church? How is it that the Marthoma church claims to be “returning to the authentic faith” of the preDiamper Church, yet no other Church in the world has the same beliefs as the Marthomites and the Marthoma are in communion with NO canonical Orthodox Church either in India or abroad - yet it is in full communion with Anglicans (CSI and Church of England) and send their ministers to Lutheran and Anglican Seminaries? Are you claiming that the Diamper Synod affected the Coptic, Armenian, Syriac, Ethiopian, and Eritrean Orthodox Churches as well - and therefore your group is the only one left with the “authentic universal faith”?
We have differences with catholics by staying away from Intercession prayer to Saints, Veneratiing the icons & statues.
Differences with Catholics and Orthodox - and the Apostolic Faith.
But we are indeed Nicane Creed community. We are not protestants as we are not formed out of Anglican Church. But we has taken up their view on evangelization and study of Bible if that is wrong to do it!.
Protestants are those communities which split from the Catholic or Orthodox Church and formed out of the teachings of Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin - that is the very definition of the Marthoma church. All of its early leaders were educated by British missionaries. The early history of the Marthoma split mentions “Claudius Buchanan” and other low-church Anglicans, not Orthodox bishops or theologians. The community was FUNDED in its infancy by the British government in India. Not too many know this - or will admit it if they do know it - Rev. Abraham, the reformer who created the Marthoma community was ordained a celibate priest. After being influenced by Anglicans and refusing to submit to his bishop, he was excommunicated. The British government in those days offered R20,000 for celibate clergy who would renounce their vows and marry, in order to influence the Malankara Church. One of the first priests to take that money was Abraham Malpan.
As being member of Universal Church (not the cathoilic church who claim to be the only true Church) that is part of Christ Body, I find nothing wrong in marrying a Marthomite if your love is true in front of God.
Quite a paradox here - you start with “being a member of the Universal Church” and end with “if your love is true in front of God” - what about the teachings of that Universal Church - and what is best for the couple? Authentic Christian Life isn’t about me and God, God and me - Its God, me, and everyone else - the Church!
Because both of you believe in Jesus Christ which is the very basic of the message of gospel to be saved.
is that what Jesus taught?
I agree that with the influence of modern churches some might think that Marthoma Church is a Protestant Church. But in reality it is not. One more thing - I can show enough and more of the ex-Catholics too with Pentecostal Churches. Personally I tried to convince them back to their mother Churches (Cathoilic) even though I am a Marthomite.
The fact is the Marthoma community is rooted in being anti-Apostolic Tradition. Their very teachings reflect what they are not: We do not venerate dead saints, etc… we do not pray to Mary, we do not do what those Orthodox and Catholics do…

How can they then say that others who have taken that to the next level - Calvinists, Methodists, Pentecostals, etc - are wrong?
Marthoma Church have much broader outlook and hve respects for all the apostolic sister churches with due respect despite the differences.
The Marthomites have no choice but to respect the Apostolic Churches because they claim their heritage from those same Churches - on the other hand they claim the teachings of those same Apostolic Churches are unbiblical. They are trying to preserve their semi-apostolic tradition while at the same time teaching reformation - this is why the Marthoma community does not have a coherent theology or catechism. In fact, if you look at the Worship book of the Marthoma church, it commemorates the Councils of Nicæa, Constantiople and Ephesus - Ephesus is where Mary was acknowledged Theotokos. Does the Marthoma church today teach Mary is the holy Ever-Virgin Mother of God?
 
How are you “deeply rooted” in the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Part 1

History of Marthoma Church & Apostolic Succession

Quote from the official website of Holy Apostolic Catholic Church of East – India (Quoted because of common Heritage)
This Church traces its origin back to the Church established by St. Thomas, the Apostle in 52 A.D., like several other Syrian Churches. There are eight denominations, which claim to be descendants of the first Christian community established in the south west coast of India by St.Thomas. It was one Christian community receiving bishops from Persia, from the Patriarchate of the Church of the East with its headquarters in Seleucia Ctesiphon, Baghdad, etc.
Vasco de Gama came to south India in 1498 AD. In the Synod of Diamper in June 1599, Archbishop Alexio de Menezes forced the Syrian Christian community to be under the obedience of the Pope of Rome.
In January 1653 thousands of these Christians in Malabar took an oath with a rope tied on a bend Cross and liberated themselves from the Portuguese fold. In 1665 a Metropolitan came from the East. Mar Gregorius of Jerusalem was his name. The Patriarch of Antioch sent him. The Syrian Christians received him. They were not aware of the split of the Syrian Christian community to East Syrian and West Syrian Churches. At that time no bishops came from the Church in Baghdad.
-Quote end-
Quote from Nestorian website
Assyrian Church of the East in India
Malankara is another name for Kerala, the cradle of Christianity in India. St. Thomas, the Apostle came to Kerala in A.D. 52 and preached the gospel with great success. Not much is known about the early history of these St. Thomas Christians, but two facts stand out clearly. Between the 3rd and the 9th centuries there were waves of immigrants from Mesopotamia to Kerala, and from the early centuries, This Church, with its liturgical center in Edessa, had also claimed its origin from St. Thomas. Thus the East Syrian or Chaldean liturgy was used in Kerala until the 17th century. The SyrianChurch (using the Syriac liturgy) in Kerala was undivided until the advent of the Portuguese.
Portuguese Domination
The Portuguese set up their headquarters in Goa early in the 16th century and extended their domain to Kerala. The Archbishopric of Goa, backed by the Portuguese, claimed jurisdiction over the Syrian Christians of Malabar. The East Syrian liturgy and the Mesopotamian connection of the St. Thomas Christians laid them open to suspicion of Nestorianism and Archbishop Menezes of Goa, who arrived in Kerala in December 1598 was determined to bring them into the Latin way of worship. He convened a Synod at Udayamperur in June 1599. Many decrees of the Synod were aimed at bring the Syrian liturgy and practices into conformity with those of the Latin Rite. The Syrians and their leader “Archdeacon” George who were present at the Synod, had to acquiesce to these decisions. The last of the Mesopotamian Bishops had died 2 years before the Synod, and for 40 years after it the Syrians were placed under Jesuit Bishops. Even before the Synod, the Portuguese clergy had tried to impose their customs on the St. Thomas Christians. After the Synod they tried to lord it over them and there was a crisis of confidence.
 
How are you “deeply rooted” in the Eastern Orthodox Church?
Part 2

History of Marthoma Church & Apostolic Succession

Syrian Revolt
When Archdeacon George died in 1637 his nephew Thomas assumed leadership, and a spirit of revolt seized the Syrians. The revolt came in 1653 after the arrival in India of a Mesopotamian bishop, Ahatalla. Thousands of Syrians gathered near Cochin, demanding to see the bishop but the Portuguese sent him off to Goa and news spread that he was drowned in the sea. The angry Syrians then and there swore an oath never again to be under the “Paulists” (i.e. Jesuit Bishops and teachers in St. Paul Seminary). “Coonen Cross oath” (as this incident came to be called) was a protest against Latinization and a defiant plea for the Syriac Rite. Four months after this, they declared their leader Thomas, as their Bishop after 12 priests had laid their hands on his head. Some efforts were subsequently made by Rome through the Carmelites to heal this breach. And during the next 12 years 84 Syrian congregations returned to communion with Rome while 32 congregations remained with the “Bishop” Thomas.

After the revolt of Coonen Cross in 1653 AD some Syrian Christians of Malabar accepted Mar Gregorius Abdul Jaleel of Jerusalem who arrived in Kerala in a Dutch ship in 1665.He belonged to the WestSyrianChurch. The Syrian Christians who took the Coonan Cross oath accepted it. Thus a large section of the Syrian Christians of Kerala became a WestSyrianChurch, known as the Syrian Orthodox Church. The St. James Liturgy used by the Syrian Orthodox Church replaced the liturgy of the Apostles Addai and Mari-.
 
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