Tackling Predestination

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Sometimes people regard the doctrine of election as unfair, since it teaches that God chooses some to be saved and passes over others, deciding not to save them. How can this be fair?
Only because the doctrine of election as Calvin and you have it IS unfair.

The doctrine of election the way we see it is not unfair. What the doctrine of election means is from the beginning, He has set out to save the world by predeterminedly ensuring the salvation of the few. Because these few (the saints) will be the ones who will help him haul the rest of the fishes aboard.

You see this by the manner with which He chose to bring about the work of savlation ie…the selection of the 12. God could have just written the Bible Himself but no, He caused it to be written within His Church. He chose to build a Church instead of writing a book. And through the cooperation of these elect, these fishermen went out fishing for souls.

Here is a secular analogy for you. When there is a plague or a pandemic outbreak, the first people that the government vaccinates are the health care workers because they will be in the frontline of the fight again the plauge. You can say that in the secular world they are the “elect”. And they are not “elected” for the simple reason of just preserving their lives. Their lives are preserved precisely because they will be instrumental in safeguarding the lives of others, of the salvation of other from the plague.
Two responses may be given at this point. First, we must remember that it would be perfectly fair for God not to save anyone just as he did with the angels: “God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment” (2 Peter 2:4). What would be perfectly fair for God would be to do with human beings as he did with angels, that is, to save none of those who sinned and rebelled against him. But if he does save some at all then this is a demonstration of grace that goes far beyond the requirements of fairness and justice. But at a deeper level this objection would say that it is not fair for God to create some people who he knew would sin and be eternally condemned, and whom he would not redeem. Paul raises this objection in Romans 9. After saying that God “has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills” (Rom. 9:18),16 Paul then raises this precise objection: “You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”’ (Rom. 9:19). Here is the heart of the “unfairness” objection against the doctrine of election. If each person’s ultimate destiny is determined by God, not by the person himself or herself (that is, even when people make willing choices that determine whether they will be saved or not, if God be fair?
Paul’s response is not one that appeals to our pride, nor does he attempt to give a philosophical explanation of why this is just. He simply calls on God’s rights as the omnipotent Creator:
"But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
" (Rom. 9:20–24)

Paul simply says that there is a point beyond which we cannot answer back to God or question his justice. He has done what he has done according to his sovereign will. He is the Creator; we are the creatures, and we ultimately have no basis from which to accuse him of unfairness or injustice. When we read these words of Paul we are confronted with a decision whether or not to accept what God says here, and what he does, simply because he is God and we are not. It is a question that reaches deep into our understanding of ourselves as creatures and of our relationship to God as our Creator. This objection of unfairness takes a slightly different form when people say that it is unfair of God to save some people and not to save all. This objection is based on an idea of justice among human beings that we sense intuitively. We recognize in human affairs that it is right to treat equal people in an equal way. Therefore it seems intuitively appropriate to us to say that if God is going to save some sinners he ought to save all sinners. But in answer to this objection it must be said that we really have no right to impose on God our intuitive sense of what is appropriate among human beings. Whenever Scripture begins to treat this area it goes back to God’s sovereignty as Creator and says he has a right to do with his creation as he wills (see Rom. 9:19–20, quoted above). If God ultimately decided to create some creatures to be saved and others not to be saved, then that was his sovereign choice, and we have no moral or scriptural basis on which we can insist that it was not fair. I had a sense of deja vu upon reading this. I could be wrong but I think you have raised this before and I have already refuted it many posts ago but you have not given a proper rebuttal of my post.
 
I was only loudly thinking if God could have ever created the reprobate and the antichrists.

And yes I did answer the above question in my post; here I repeat it:
  • though the exact process of creation of devil’s children is not spelt out in the bible, this parable (of the wheat and the tares) gives us an idea.
Please state your case plainly.

Is the devil capable of creating human beings? Did the devil create the evil people on this earth?
 
Neither do I. But we should not underestimate Satan’s capabilities. I think (not believe) that the human beings created by God in His own image and likeness can reproduce in three ways:
  1. According to God’s specific will, eg., Isaac, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist. Such children are predestined for God’s glory.
  2. By the ordinary way. Such children have to be born again (re-created) through the sacraments.
  3. According to Satan’s manipulation of human beings (maybe thro’ sins like fornication). Such children are antichrists, reprobate and doomed for hell
Thank you for the suggestion. I’ll read this book surely.
Sorry Pitcharan. You are Catholic but your theology is rather askew.

God created human beings period. He had a hand in every created human being. And because He is the sum of all goodness, He creates nothing bad. However, the devil can step in early in the piece and pervert it.

Even when Satan may have manipulated the conception through sin, the creation of the human being is still solely God’s.
 
Please state your case plainly.

Is the devil capable of creating human beings? Did the devil create the evil people on this earth?
I never said the devil creates human beings, but yet you insisted that I point the scripture verse that says so. This is what I am sharing plainly:

We should not underestimate Satan’s capabilities.

I think (not believe) that the human beings created by God in His own image and likeness can reproduce in three ways:
  1. According to God’s specific will, eg., Isaac, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist. Such children are predestined for God’s glory.
  2. By the ordinary way. Such children have to be born again (re-created) through the sacraments.
  3. According to Satan’s will thro’ manipulation of human beings (maybe thro’ sins like fornication). Such children are antichrists, reprobate and doomed for hell
 
Thank you for the suggestion. I’ll read this book surely.
If you want to read a book that is truly Christian and truly Catholic I suggest you read “Why Does God permit Evil” by Dom Bruno Webb. This book will give you a good overview of the whole economy of salvation and how everything we believe in the Catholic Church are all linked to this grand plan of God, the grand plan of salvation.
 
We believe in tradition but not in Tradition the way the RCC does. We do read the works of other Christians/scholars/church fathers/theologians to aid us in interpretation.
Therefore you believe in man made tradition. Protestant traiditon dates to the 1500s, the 1500 years after the birth of the Christ’s church at Pentecost.

One thing that all evangelical converts have found (including the Francis Beckwith - former President of the Evangelical Theological Society) is that the Church of the early Christians is the same Catholic Church although then it was still an acorn, now it is a full grown tree.

And before we had Scripture we had tradition. And hen you accept scripture, you may not know it but you accept that infallibility of the Church for she was the one who proclaimed the canon of the scripture.
 
Sorry Pitcharan. You are Catholic but your theology is rather askew.

Even when Satan may have manipulated the conception through sin, the creation of the human being is still solely God’s.
Where have I ever stated that human beings are also created by Satan?
God created human beings period. He had a hand in every created human being. And because He is the sum of all goodness, He creates nothing bad. However, the devil can step in early in the piece and pervert it
That is merely a restatement of what I already said.
 
I never said the devil creates human beings, but yet you insisted that I point the scripture verse that says so. This is what I am sharing plainly:

We should not underestimate Satan’s capabilities.

I think (not believe) that the human beings created by God in His own image and likeness can reproduce in three ways:
  1. According to God’s specific will, eg., Isaac, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist. Such children are predestined for God’s glory.
  2. By the ordinary way. Such children have to be born again (re-created) through the sacraments.
  3. According to Satan’s will thro’ manipulation of human beings (maybe thro’ sins like fornication). Such children are antichrists, reprobate and doomed for hell
Pitcharan,
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that only God has true creative capability. Satan can manipulate but can not create. But this is outside the scope of this particular thread. If you want to explore this concept further, create another thread and I’m sure there will be many experts available to create clarity around this issue.
 
I will give you a more detailed reply later this evening but I just want you to think again about my question because you have not answered that in this post.

Can the devil create human beings?

If you believe so, please cite Scriptural verses to support your claim.
Is your more detailed reply to my preceding post coming?
 
Pitcharan,
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that only God has true creative capability. Satan can manipulate but can not create. But this is outside the scope of this particular thread. If you want to explore this concept further, create another thread and I’m sure there will be many experts available to create clarity around this issue.
Paul
You are not obliged to respond to my posts and there is no need to restate what I have already stated.

My posts were not in response to any of your posts.
 
It seems to me that this whole discussion of Calvinist predestination hinges on two points :
  1. That there is a class of people (You call them reprobates) that were born with absolutely no chance of salvation.
  2. That men’s actions have no effect on their own salvation.
Bengoshi, you’ve stated both points but can you actually show in scripture where these points are stated explicitly?

Indeed, the Catholic church teaches the opposing view of these two points and can back them up with scripture:

1A) Everyone has a chance at salvation:
- Jesus came to call all men to himself.
- God allows the sun to shine on the good and the bad
- There is more joy in heaven over a repentent sinner than over 99 people who didn’t need to repent
- and many, many more

2A) Your actions do effect your salvation:
- Luke 18: 18-23: What must I do to inherit eternal life: follow the commandments.
- Romans 2: 5-10: God will repay everyone according to his works.
- Matthew 25: 32-46: Final judgement based on works of mercy
- Matthew 7: 21: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
- And many, many more

In fact, the Catholic viewpoint is pervasive in scripture, which is not surprising since the bible was compiled by the Catholic Church for use as a teaching and liturgical tool. It really makes no sense to use a Catholic book to try to prove the Catholic church is wrong, but yet people try. In any case, can you support your position on these points?
By the way, you don’t really have to do that here… I’m not trying to put you on the spot. I just hope that it will give you something to think about…
 
Code:
 This has to be discussed in some detail; bear with me patiently and listen please:
  1. If Satan were powerless and weak, then there would be no great struggle between Good and Evil.
But God is not struggling with Satan. God can vanquish Satan anytime. We are however struggling against Satan. If you look at the book of Job, Satan asks for permission.
  1. If Satan can obtain God’s permission to torment Job or to sift Peter like wheat, can we rule out Satan getting permission to produce duplicates in his own image and likeness?
No, satan is not getting a permission to duplicate children in his own image and likeness. However, he is permitted to tempt the human beings that God has created in His own image, to defy God.

The story of sin always plays out in the same way that the first defiance of God at the Garden of Eden happened. First comes Satan’s lie, then comes our first parents pride and next is the catchcry, Non Serviam.
  1. Who are the Anti Christs and who produces them?
I don’t know who the anti-Christs are but God made them in the same way He made you and me but by their own choice they decided to follow satan.
  1. If Judas is described as “son of perdition” and if it is said of him “it would have been better for him had he not been born at all”, what does it indicate? Who brought about Judas’ birth?
God brought about Judas’s birth.

Re: the quote it would have been better hasd he not been born at all, what this means that what he is about to do is so hedious, so horrible that it would have been better for him not to exist.

However, the choice to betray Christ is entirely his.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE VERSES:
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. (Gen 3:15)
That translation is not accurate because the serpent is supposed to strike Jesus’s heel not Mary’s.

But that aside, the seed here does not mean evil men but devils. A devil’s offspring is a devil by nature. Nature begets nature.
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. (John 8:39-44)
Jesus is speaking figuratively here. He does not mean that the devil biologically fathered these men.
  1. NOW CONSIDER THE PARABLE OF THE WHEAT AND THE TARES
Does it not clearly suggest
  • that children created by God in His own image and likeness are distinct and predestined for Glory.
  • children of the Evil one are the reprobate and doomed to eternal suffering in hell.
  • though the exact process of creation of devil’s children is not spelt out in the bible, this parable gives us an idea.
  • Not even the angels are allowed to pre-judge who is who, but this will be known on the day of last judgement.
Pitcharan, the parable of the wheat and the tares is exactly that – a parable. It is a not literal.

Here is one explanation of this parable.

Our soul is the field, the wheat are the virtues, the tares are our vices. God allows both virtue and vice to live side by side within us because an overszealous pulling out of vices may actually pull out the virtue as well.

Sometimes when we conquer a vice, a virtue disappears.

Example would be a person who is a procrastinator but at the same time because of this he is quite patient with others. Once he conquers this and becomes diligent and organized and industrious, he might cease to be patient with others because he will demand the same kind of efficiency from others even from those who may not have the capacity to live up to his standards.
 
It seems to me that this whole discussion of Calvinist predestination hinges on two points :
  1. That there is a class of people (You call them reprobates) that were born with absolutely no chance of salvation.
  2. That men’s actions have no effect on their own salvation.
Bengoshi, you’ve stated both points but can you actually show in scripture where these points are stated explicitly?

Indeed, the Catholic church teaches the opposing view of these two points and can back them up with scripture:

1A) Everyone has a chance at salvation:
- Jesus came to call all men to himself.
- God allows the sun to shine on the good and the bad
- There is more joy in heaven over a repentent sinner than over 99 people who didn’t need to repent
- and many, many more

2A) Your actions do effect your salvation:
- Luke 18: 18-23: What must I do to inherit eternal life: follow the commandments.
- Romans 2: 5-10: God will repay everyone according to his works.
- Matthew 25: 32-46: Final judgement based on works of mercy
- Matthew 7: 21: Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
- And many, many more

In fact, the Catholic viewpoint is pervasive in scripture, which is not surprising since the bible was compiled by the Catholic Church for use as a teaching and liturgical tool. It really makes no sense to use a Catholic book to try to prove the Catholic church is wrong, but yet people try. In any case, can you support your position on these points?
By the way, you don’t really have to do that here… I’m not trying to put you on the spot. I just hope that it will give you something to think about…
:clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
Where have I ever stated that human beings are also created by Satan?
When you quoted scripture and said that the weeds are the sons of the evil ones.

By quoting this you seemed to imply that the devil created these human beings, these so called anti-christs.
 
I will give you a more detailed reply later this evening but I just want you to think again about my question because you have not answered that in this post.

Can the devil create human beings?

If you believe so, please cite Scriptural verses to support your claim.
It seems that you had no intention to reply to my post but yet gave a false assurance of a belated reply. And in order to avoid replying you chose to falsely attribute statements to me which were neither made nor implied. I wonder what is your purpose and sorry to have bothered you
 
But God is not struggling with Satan. God can vanquish Satan anytime. We are however struggling against Satan. If you look at the book of Job, Satan asks for permission.

No, satan is not getting a permission to duplicate children in his own image and likeness. However, he is permitted to tempt the human beings that God has created in His own image, to defy God.
…Example would be a person who is a procrastinator but at the same time because of this he is quite patient with others. Once he conquers this and becomes diligent and organized and industrious, he might cease to be patient with others because he will demand the same kind of efficiency from others even from those who may not have the capacity to live up to his standards.
Dear Brother Benedictus,
do accept my sincere apology for the below quoted post of mine; it was sent after I erroneously failed to notice your above reply. I was also tricked by the deceiver to become angry for no valid reason and find fault with you. Please forgive me.

And yes, your reply was very clarifying and I feel refreshed. Thank you and God bless you.

Regards
Pitcharan
PREVIOUS POST OF MINE TO BE DISCARDED
It seems that you had no intention to reply to my post but yet gave a false assurance of a belated reply. And in order to avoid replying you chose to falsely attribute statements to me which were neither made nor implied. I wonder what is your purpose and sorry to have bothered you.
 
Pitcharan,
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that only God has true creative capability. Satan can manipulate but can not create. But this is outside the scope of this particular thread. If you want to explore this concept further, create another thread and I’m sure there will be many experts available to create clarity around this issue.
Dear Brother Paul,
do accept my sincere apology for the below quoted post of mine; it was sent after I was also tricked by the deceiver to become angry for no valid reason and find fault with you. Please forgive me.

And yes, your reply was very apt. Thank you and God bless you.

Regards
Pitcharan

PREVIOUS POST OF MINE TO BE DISCARDED
Paul
You are not obliged to respond to my posts and there is no need to restate what I have already stated.

My posts were not in response to any of your posts.
 
So what you are saying once you are given grace you have the ability to will and act.
Well, clearly we have the ability and will to act before grace, but it is not in the direction of God. 😃
So at what point are you given this Grace. In other words are you given Grace before you can have faith. Or do you have to have faith first coming from you. Then God gives you the Grace???
Yes, yes, and yes.

We are made to seek Him. He draws us toward Himself. When we recognize His drawing and respond, He gives more grace. “To those that have, more will be given”.
As regards total depravity i don’t fully understand the meaning. I would have thought total depravity was committing every Sin in the book and you cant stop yourself doing every sin in the book.
But apparently what i am understanding you can have 1 small sin in you life and it is considered total depravity and we are a slave to that small Sin unrighteousness which every person thought was natural.
No, it means that the God given desire which he created in us does not function anymore, and that we are unable to respond to His grace drawing us to Himself. We are unable to choose to come to Him, or to engage in an act of faith that will mix with His grace resulting in salvation.
But when we are Given Grace it gives us the power to overcome in Time and we become a slave to rightousness.
This piece of the TULIP is predicated upon others. God does not sanctify those he has not justified. According to Calvin, a person is regenerated apart from his will. God also sanctifies the saved apart from his will.
THERE IS A SCRIPTURE WHERE GOD DOES NOT CALL ALL MEN!!
Please show us this, so we can discuss it.
 
Good!

As I’ve said before, God created everything good, even Lucifer himself was good. Lucifer and a third of the angels in heaven rebelled against God, non serviam, they said. Satan wanted to be God. Therefore, he was cast down from heaven like lightning bolt and Jesus beheld this. After some time, Lucifer, now Satan, used the serpent in the Garden to tempt Eve who was with Adam. As a result, they ate of the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They disobeyed God, thus, original sin resulted. Human nature (and the entire creation) became corrupt. This is known in theology as the noetic effects of sin. Man was no longer good. That is the reason God had to send Jesus Christ to die and become the propitiation for our sins. Now, those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior by putting their faith (trust) in Him(Gk. pisteuo en auton) are saved. However, we are only able to do that by the grace of God, which regenerates (born again) us in to a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). That’s why grace precedes faith. Even our faith comes from God for He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith.

So we can see from this concise biblical history how man came to have a sinful nature.

You can also watch his talks on You Tube or Google. Another one of his famous books are “Jesus Among Other Gods”.
Hi Bengoshi

With The forknowledge of God. Did God Know before he created lucifer. That he would Rebel. Also Before God created adam and eve he knew they would fall??
 
Neither do I. But we should not underestimate Satan’s capabilities. I think (not believe) that the human beings created by God in His own image and likeness can reproduce in three ways:
  1. According to God’s specific will, eg., Isaac, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist. Such children are predestined for God’s glory.
  2. By the ordinary way. Such children have to be born again (re-created) through the sacraments.
  3. According to Satan’s manipulation of human beings (maybe thro’ sins like fornication). Such children are antichrists, reprobate and doomed for hell
Thank you for the suggestion. I’ll read this book surely.
Hi Pitchuran.

Are you saying Maybe Children Born through Fornication and Adultery are such children
that are antichrists, Reprobate and doomed for hell?
 
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