Tackling Predestination

[benedictus2]

The bible says you are either a slave to righteousness or a slave to unrighteousness

A prisoner of Satan or a prisoner of Christ. Maybe it is not a simple as you think this free will.

Everyone has degrees of slavery to sin. However, the grace that God gives to say yes to Him and no to the devil is always enough for you to give a yes. That is why it is said that His grace is sufficient for us.

Think of it this way. If we can quantity grace, we can probably put it like this.
You are a see saw and the devil has put a kilogram of weight on the left to pull you towards him. But God is also there with a kilogram of weight to pull you towards the light sometimes even just a tad more. So now you are balanced. You have the option of leaning either way.

The wonderful thing about this though is that as you make a choice for the light, the side of your darkness is weakened so that when another choice comes, it is just that tiny bit easier to lean towards the light.

It is like when you build muscles. Whichever muscle you exercise is what grows and becomes strong. Same with our choices. Our right choices will makes our virtue muscles grow. And if we keep excersing that, we become strong in virtue. Our vice vice muscles will then atrophy for lack of use.

Then you have atheists who dont believe in any religion or God.

It might surprise you that the philosophy that powers atheism is the same philosophy that is at the root of Calvinism.

You maybe have the grace to be following the right Jesus the right God and the Right church. And be a slave to righteousness and a prisioner of christ.
Look at youself deeply and ask youself have you got the free will to turn away from it all

Yes, if I so choose to start sinning and living a debauched life, I can. It will be my choice. But as I explained above, when you continue to love and follow God, your inclination will be towards Him. The pull of the devil gets weaker. Mind you this is also the time that the devil works overtime in a variety of subtle ways to get you back on his side. That is why we need discernment. And St Ignatiius’s rules for discernment is a very valuable tool in the fight against the evil one.

Here are some more gems from St Ignatius
Prayer for Generosity

*Lord, teach me to be generous.
Teach me to serve you as you deserve;
to give and not to count the cost,
to fight and not to heed the wounds,
to toil and not to seek for rest,
to labor and not to ask for reward,
save that of knowing that I do your will. *
**The First Principle and Foundation **

*The Goal of our life is to live with God forever.
God, who loves us, gave us life.
Our own response of love allows God’s life
to flow into us without limit.

All the things in this world are gifts from God,
Presented to us so that we can know God more easily
and make a return of love more readily.
As a result, we appreciate and use all these gifts of God
Insofar as they help us to develop as loving persons.
But if any of these gifts become the center of our lives,
They displace God
And so hinder our growth toward our goal.

In everyday life, then, we must hold ourselves in balance
Before all of these created gifts insofar as we have a choice
And are not bound by some obligation.
We should not fix our desires on health or sickness,
Wealth or poverty, success or failure, a long life or a short one.
For everything has the potential of calling forth in us
A deeper response to our life in God.

Our only desire and our one choice should be this:
I want and I choose what better leads
To God’s deepening his life in me.*

 

[benedictus2]

Then I am done with you. You don’t even want to give it a chance.

Do you know how many truly good literature there in this world? One must be discerning in what one spends time on. In my lifetime the most I can hope for is to at least read all of Pope Benedict and Chesterton. I doubt I will be able to do that since there are other books that I come across that I know I really must read as well. Where most women shop for clothes I opt for books. I have quite a few which I have not even started yet.

Besides I know Calvinistic predestination. I have read up on it on the net.

Your poking holes in my arguments were illogical and out of context. They are full of straw man arguments which argue from points that I didn’t even mean.

Well then rebut. Show the flaw in my reasoning.

Furthermore, the space provided here is not enough for me to present a complete discussion of Election/Reprobation.

Even if it takes you two or more posts it can be done. You do not need to write an entire book.
Just write the basic points and explain how the debunk our claims.

By the way, I do plan to read Chesterton. I also appreciate the brilliance of Pope Benedict. I really do plan to buy their books, although Chesterton’s are quite difficult to find here in our country.

If you pm me an address to send to, I will mail you one.

 

[benedictus2]

Great! I do not know how to do “PM.” Is it legal? Anyway, here is my email : dcastlen50@hotmail.com

PM is private messaging, which is an option their offer CAF members so you do not have to give your email address.

I will organize the files for you on Sunday evening when I get back from my retreat.

And from our dear Pope Benedict:
**Truth and love coincide in Christ. To the extent that we draw close to Christ, in our own lives too, truth and love are blended. Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like “a clanging cymbal”
**

 

[benedictus2]

Hi quanophore

I am still trying to work out when we are given this grace. Because {Augustine says} We cannot choose first to do the will of God and then we are Given Grace because that makes us sovereign over God. {Augustine says} Even if God Knows before the foundation of the world The Ones that would choose his will That still makes us sovereign over God.

St Augustine rightly says that we are given the grace to respond. However, except in some cases, the grace is not always irresistible in that once we are given this grace, there is no other way to act. Even when God gives the grace, we can still will the other way. But the grace is always enough to will towards God.

In some cases though as in the conversion stories I have read, it would be overpowering as in the conversion of Alphonse Ratisbone from atheism to Catholic in 15 and Fr Donald Calloway in I think a span of 3 hours.

But even this I believe are not as instantaneous as we think. These conversions were born of the prayers of those who loved these people. St Augustine’s was the fruit of St Monica’s prayers.

But for most of us, it is a slow process. We are rarely overwhelmed by grace but have no doubt about it, grace is always there and is always sufficient.

That is why I totally disagree with predestination to damnation because God gives the grace always. And even the bad things that happen are graces, for God uses them to call us back to Himself.

We tend to think of grace as this nice, sweet, glorious thing that comes from God but the trials are graces too.

So When does God Give Us this Grace To have Faith,To Choose God and to do the will of God.

We don’t know. Sometimes faith is the culmination of the many graces before which you did not think of as graces at all.

Then one day you believed and you thought that that came from something what immediately preceded the experience but it is not necessarily so.

It is most likely a culmination of mishaps and near misses and then one day your heart was soft enough to receive his Word.

Think of it this way.

Have your ever poured water on clay soil that has been baked solid by scorching heat? The water just runs off. But if you pour a little water and allow that first drop to sink and follow it would another little bit and another little bit then it will start to soften till one day it is able to absorb a downpour without running off. Then the soil has become porous enough and soft enough to receive what ever seed you want to plant.

So with our soul. God’s grace is the water, the seed and the careful attention that He pays to our hardened souls.

Sometimes too the Potter must bake the clay before He can refashion it anew. The breaking too is grace.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi paul

I am in total Agreement with you hear. We have to ask God for everything. Ask for a new heart, A new will. A new mind A new spirit. Ask To overcome each and evey sin. Ask God
To help us not to fall into temptation. with the grace in us. use that grace to ask for more grace more faith more strenth more of his spirit. I am asking God every day to show me the truth in his word and Lead me to the Right Church.
sometimes i am in tears asking God for things and i Know he will help me.

Yes indeed He will. For God IS love and abounding in mercy.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi paul

I have been studying Augustine: Yes Grace and free will work together. Free will to do the will of God. without Grace you only have free will to do the will of Satan. Even our righteousness is filthy rags in the site of God. {remember}. Satan can be the angel of light
What about all the Good deeds of the Muslims that they do is that The grace of God.

Can any good come out of the devil? I think it was St Thomas Aquinas who said that God is the SUMUM BONUM - the sum of all goodness. All goodness therefore is a grace of God. Even the not so good is a grace of God.

At Easter, we Catholics chant : *O felix culpa, quae talem ac tantum meruit habere Redemptorem! *

O happy fault, O necessary sin of Adam,
**which gained for us so great a Redeemer! **

So you state you get the Grace of God when you are baptised. So you get baptised then God gives you the Grace. That is putting works before Grace. In other word you do something first then God will give.

That is not quite a correct assessment of the matter.

That you actually get to the point of being baptized is already due to a lot of graces big and small. The grace that we receive at baptism is the forgiveness of all our sins. Once we are baptized, we are a new creation. But God’s grace is not limited to making you a new creation. The preparation towards this single moment of your life consist of a whole host of graces which we will only know when we get to heaven.

Augustine is speaking dead against this. That is giving merit to man first. Augustine is speaking dead against this.
You have to be given Grace first!! That gives you faith to have the free will to get baptised.
Then everything that you do after this is by your free will being strengthened by God and his Grace.

That is because you have a very limited notion of grace. As I have explained above, you only get to this seeming inconsistency because you misunderstood what we meant by receiving the grace at baptism.

By grace you are saved through faith not of works lest any man can boast {Remember} Eph 2:8

And that is true. We have not issue with that. But works IS necessary because this is the way that God has decreed that salvation should happen. He did not need our works but He decreed that it is necessary when He took on human form.

Your works then proves your faith and Grace that you have been Given. {Remenber James}

This gives all the glory to God. This is what Augustine is saying!!

Our cooperation gives all the glory to God.

St Irenaeus said that the glory of God is a man fully alive. What gives God glory is when we manifest God in our being and in our lives.

Do you believe Satan has free will??

When he was an angel yes. But when he disobeyed God he became totally enslaved by himself. This is why at the garden of Eden, the temptation to Adam and Eve was self-deification, and enslavement to self. Once we succumb, we say that I/Me/Myself am god.

And you see this displayed as well in the protestant churches. This “non serviam” is evident in the ever growing number of denominations. I start my denomination becuse My interpretation, My opinion, and what I want is what is correct and what matters.

I have said before as well that the reason Protestants do not like the idea of having a pope or a magisterium is because them want to be Pope and magisterium themselves.

Stephen Ray in a recent talk said that when he became Catholic he was ready to dethrone Pope Stephen Ray.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi benedictus

I Agree with you here. It does seem very unfair God giving people no chance of salvation
Its not very nice for the person to realise this that is on the wrong side of the fence.
That person might as-well go off and Sin as much as possible and properly.

Very good point. I think you should share that with Bengoshi.

What is this that you are saying about the Trinity. Do catholics believe this 3 persons in one God and Jesus is God??

The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated by the Catholic Church around about the time that the canon of Scripture was being determined.

Yes it is 3 persons in one God. Not three Gods, not One God and one person exhibiting 3 modalities.

That is why I say that any discussion about salvation or anything about theology should start with this: God IS love.

Now why do I say that? Because God’s nature is love. Love is not merely something that God does or an attribute of God, but Love is what God IS for in God we find all the “components” of love. In the Trinity we have the lovers : the Father loving the Son and the Son loving the Father. We also have in this the love that they share which becomes another Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit - for that is what the Holy Spirit is - the love between the Father and the Son.

That is why Love is creative, just as in Genesis, the Spirit of God hovered over the chaos and out of it created the cosmos. God creates out of love.

That is why I don’t know how this Love that creates would determine from the outset that He will damn and destroy those that He will create even before He has created them. It just goes so much against what we know about God - that He IS love.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Pete,

I will do proper reply to this once I’ve read the link you provided. I might actually do a summary as dcasteln has asked.

But just quickly on a few points.

Please do not get me wrong. I love both St Thomas and St Augustine, that is why I cannot buy predetestination to damnation.

St Thomas said that God is the Summum Bonum and that the only reason God creates is because of Love. He also defined what love means : to will the good of the other as other. If that is so, then God created every single person WILLING THE GOOD of everyone.

St Augustine wrote that God created us for Himself and our hearts are restless until they rest in Him. If God created us for Himself how then can He determined, even before He created us that He will set some of us apart from Himself when His purpose for creating us is for union with Himself?

And now to some of the points you raised.

Good day, my sister!
Our ability to choose to cooperate with God’s grace is “itself an effect of grace” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).

I whole heartedly agree and never said other wise.

You said that Augustine’s teaching “seems to be saying one… is coerced into salvation.” But Augustine never taught this.

I was responding to how you phrased it. If Augustine never taught this then that is great.

You don’t like Augustine’s teaching on grace and free will, but, as I quoted earlier, Pope Leo XIII lauded him for “How subtly he reasoned on… the will and free choice” (Aeterni Patris).

It’s not that I don’t like Augustine’s teaching. My only point was that even though he is a Father of the Church, none the less his view on predestination is not dogma.

God “has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills” (Romans 9:18). And if we ask why He had mercy on the person He had mercy on, God Himself answers by saying, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (Romans 9:15).

But all this verse says is that mercy is God’s prerogative nothing more. And we do not contest that. It is the interpretation that somehow this also means that He will damn and destroy who he pleases and that it pleases Him to damn and destroy is what I have an issue with. Destroy evil yes, but He never created evil in the first place. People He did create.

Is there a parallel somewhere were God says I will damn who ever I will damn and I will not have compasion on whoever I will not have compassion?

It is interesting that when God saw it fit to insist on his prerogative, He insist on his prerogative to have Mercy and to have Compassion.

If you go back to the beginning of the chapter, what was Paul addressing?
Isn’t it that the jews seem to be complaining that somehow God has seen it fit to give the gentiles mercy and compassion which the Jews thought it was their birth right.

What is being said here is that were man will insist on not having mercy and compassion to those who they consider are outsiders, God will have mercy and compassion on those we do not think deserve mercy and compassion.

This is very evident in the story of the Prodigal Son and the Lorst Sheep where the shepherd leaves the 99 good ones to seek out one that is lost.

When God saves a person, His love and mercy are exhibited. When God does not save a person, His justice, power, and wrath are exhibited.

What? All of a sudden He ceases to exhibit love and mercy. How can that be when God is nothing else but love. And another thing, God does not choose not to save a person. The person chooses not to be saved. Isn’t it that according to Augustine we will ourselves into damnation.

T**he justice of God manifested in the reprobate instills both a vigilant vigor and a humble gratitude in those “who are called according to His purpose,” **

for whom God makes “all things work together for good” (Romans 8:28). The unrepentant sins of the reprobate highlight God’s forbearance and “the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy” (Romans 9:23).So now God rules like this: He takes you to the dungeon and shows you the wretched state the reprobates are in and says to you - see what will happen to you if you do not love me?

Total depravity is usually taken to mean that all of man (this is the “total” part) is to some extent deleteriously affected by original sin. Reason, the will, the appetites, are all in some way disordered. It does not mean that all of man is to the fullest extent affected by original sin. The mind is beclouded, but not black; the will is bent and weakened, but not destroyed; our desires are lustful, but in some ways restrained; our love is tainted by selfishness, and yet we can perform selfless acts, etc. Neither Augustine nor Aquinas said that there is no goodness in even the worst of sinners.

Actually, I think total depravity means exactly that.- total depravaty in the fullest extent. That is what Calvinists believe.

I would like to ask you and every one else a question here.

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were in a state of grace, right? The fall is what caused man to be out of that state of grace.

Then how come they still disobeyed God when we say that the reason we are unable to obey God is because we are children of the fall?

 

[dcastlen50]

Hi Pete,

I would like to ask you and every one else a question here.

Before Adam and Eve sinned, they were in a state of grace, right? The fall is what caused man to be out of that state of grace.

Then how come they still disobeyed God when we say that the reason we are unable to obey God is because we are children of the fall?

In order to address this questions, how important is it to first establish a clear understanding of Love and Free Will and Grace? It seems the three appear (to me) to be at the heart of the issue of sin and therefore the most important issues related to the origination of sin. If we clarify these terms would it lead to a part of the answer?

(BTW Benedictus, I orderred your recommended books)

 

[benedictus2]

In order to address this questions, how important is it to first establish a clear understanding of Love and Free Will and Grace? It seems the three appear (to me) to be at the heart of the issue of sin and therefore the most important issues related to the origination of sin. If we clarify these terms would it lead to a part of the answer?

Yes, a good understanding of these will go a long way towards answering this question. However we also need a broader understanding of the whole economy of salvation to truly make sense of this and predestination.

A year or so ago, my brother asked me a related question.: “If the angels who had free will, who beheld God, could still have revolted, how do we know that once we are in heaven we will not do the same? If we still have free will, then does it not stand to reason that we could still choose to disobey God in the same way that the angels did?”

My answer was of course, No. Because when we are saved, we are not merely restored to the state of Adam and Eve before the fall, nor even to the state of the angels, but due to our sonship with Christ, we are elevated to a state higher than the angels, that of true children of God, re-made into the image of Christ whose will is so intertwined with that of the Father, that He obeyed unto death. We truly become a new creation, not humans, not angels but beings much more glorious than these.

God has allowed the fall to bring about a much greater good. O happy fault!

So with the definitions.

Free Will. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. Free will is simply this elective power.

Love - To love is to will the good of other as other.

Grace -in general, is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness. (from New Advent).

The difference between Catholic and Protestant understanding of salvation I think lie in their understanding of grace. Grace to them has not ontological status in the soul and is merely this legal declaration that God makes that man is no longer a sinner even though he is still a sinner.

The Catholic view is that grace has nature changing effects on the soul. And this understanding is crucial to the doctrine of theosis - the refashioning of human beings into the image of Christ.

This after all is what heaven is all about. When we have been completely re-made in His image, then we can say that we are in heaven. Which is why the doctrine of purgatory is so crucial as well and also ties it all with Baptism, Confession and all the other sacraments, especially that of the Eucharist. The sacraments are after all, all about grace.

(BTW Benedictus, I orderred your recommended books)

I am sure you will thoroughly enjoy them. They are good guides in this pilgrimage of ours to our true homeland.

Speaking of guides. When the GPS first came out I was really quite fascinated by it. Our IT manager was the first one to have it in his car. I thought it quite amazing how if you make the wrong turn it will reconfigure to find you a route back to your destination and I thought, wow, that is exactly how God deals with us.

He has punched the origin and destination and configured the most hassle free direction towards home. However, willfull children that we are, we decided to do a detour here and there. At every step of our detour, God’s grace, in the form of this instruction from the GPS tells us the re-configured route.

If our way has gone so bad, the re-configured route will necessarily have to pass through some very bad traffic, bad roads or will end up taking longer. But always, it will lead us home.

The problem is, sometimes in annoyance we tend to turn it off to shut the male or female voice up.

When it comes back on and stays on inspite of your trying to shut it up, then you could say that that is efficacious grace, God’s will determined to get you home. Much like Noah when he got swallowed by the whale.

 

[Procorus]

Catholics believe in predestination, just not “double predestination” in which God “passes over” His grace to some people, thus giving them no chance at heaven.

Here are 2 articles that have helped me.

Tiptoe through TULIP by Jimmy Akin (go to the Perseverance of the Saints part)
Predestination by Dr. Ludwig Ott (whose book is used to train seminarians as I understand)

The Augustinian and Thomist tradition believe in “Sovereign and Just Reprobation”. Are you saying they are not Catholics after all?

 

[paul_c]

The Augustinian and Thomist tradition believe in “Sovereign and Just Reprobation”. Are you saying they are not Catholics after all?

I’m not sure you are quoting them correctly. Like All Catholics, they believe that man has free will while also acknowledging that God is sovereign. The Catholic church teaches that every man has a chance at salvation. Both Thomas and Augustine’s teachings are consistent with that.

 

[Procorus]

I’m not sure you are quoting them correctly. Like All Catholics, they believe that man has free will while also acknowledging that God is sovereign. The Catholic church teaches that every man has a chance at salvation. Both Thomas and Augustine’s teachings are consistent with that.

You don’t read them, do you?
Both church fathers believe in the existence of Free Will, and they believe in Double Predestination at the same time. They taught that God is Sovereign even over man’s free will. In other words, he infallibly converts those whom he has elected, and he hardens those whom he reprobated according to his good pleasure. Augustine wrote:
…and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so ENTIRELY at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous.
(On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 44 [XX])

 

[paul_c]

You don’t read them, do you?
Both church fathers believe in the existence of Free Will, and they believe in Double Predestination at the same time. They taught that God is Sovereign even over man’s free will. In other words, he infallibly converts those whom he has elected, and he hardens those whom he reprobated according to his good pleasure. Augustine wrote:
…and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so ENTIRELY at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous.
(On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 44 [XX])

This quote does not support double predestination. It supports single predestination, which is to say that God will predispose some to heaven. But it does not say that God wills anyone to go to hell. Here is a summary of this teaching of Augustine from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Now in the Divine decree, according to Augustine, and according to the Catholic Faith on this point, which has been formulated by him, the two elements pointed out above appear:

• The certain and gratuitous choice of the elect — God decreeing, indeed, to create the world and to give it such a series of graces with such a concatenation of circumstances as should bring about freely, but infallibly, such and such results (for example, the despair of Judas and the repentance of Peter), decides, at the same time, the name, the place, the number of the citizens of the future heavenly Jerusalem. The choice is immutable; the list closed. It is evident, indeed, that only those of whom God knows beforehand that they will wish to co-operate with the grace decreed by Him will be saved. It is a gratuitous choice, the gift of gifts, in virtue of which even our merits are a gratuitous benefit, a gift which precedes all our merits. No one, in fact, is able to merit this election. God could, among other possible worlds, have chosen one in which other series of graces would have brought about other results. He saw combinations in which Peter would have been impenitent and Judas converted. It is therefore prior to any merit of Peter, or any fault of Judas, that God decided to give them the graces which saved Peter and not Judas. God does not wish to give paradise gratuitously to any one; but He gives very gratuitously to Peter the graces with which He knows Peter will be saved. — Mysterious choice! Not that it interferes with liberty, but because to this question: Why did not God, seeing that another grace would have saved Judas, give it to him? Faith can only answer, with Augustine: O Mystery! O Altitudo! (De Spiritu et litterâ, xxxiv, n. 60).
• But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to.

 

[Procorus]

This quote does not support double predestination. It supports single predestination, which is to say that God will predispose some to heaven. But it does not say that God wills anyone to go to hell.

Read again (emphasis mine):…and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so ENTIRELY at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and** to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself**, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous.
(On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 44 [XX])
I want to emphasis certain points on this particular Augustine quote:

1. 
   *]we have free will
   *]but our free will, whether good or bad, is ENTIRELY at the disposal of God
   *]God sovereignly converts the evil will of his elect into good ones, leading to Salvation;
   *] the same way as he does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever he wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their evil deeds (see Augustine’s “On Grace & Free Will”, Chapter 42).
   
   This reflects, although implicit, his view on double predestination. There are those whom God has chosen for Salvation, and there are those whom God has reprobated unto eternal punishment. Want a verbatim statement from Augustine on double predestination? Read on… These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT,** and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has** PREDESTINED TO GRACE. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will, His will concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will does not defeat His will. For it would not be done did He not permit it (AND OF COURSE HIS PERMISSION IS NOT UNWILLING, BUT WILLING); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
   (St. Augustine, Enchirid. Chapter 100)
   Now tell me. Is this not a CLEAR (verbatim) statement from Augustine supporting double predestination?

 

[dcastlen50]

.

When it comes back on and stays on inspite of your trying to shut it up, then you could say that that is efficacious grace, God’s will determined to get you home. Much like Noah when he got swallowed by the whale.

Dag gum Noah always stealing Jonah’s show.

 

[dcastlen50]

Love - To love is to will the good of other as other.

)

I hesitate to respond as the people involved in this thread have been so enlighting. One more participant may create a log jam and the “good stuff” get loss in the “OK stuff.” I would particularly like to complement your excellent eye openers (as I have done in a previous post).

I only ask for clarification. Does Love = a will?
That is, a will to have good done to a beloved.

Or is this will** an attribute of love (“accident” as the logicians call it)?

Pray we are not getting off subject!

 

[paul_c]

Read again (emphasis mine):…and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so ENTIRELY at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and** to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself**, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous.
(On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 44 [XX])
I want to emphasis certain points on this particular Augustine quote:

1. 
   *]we have free will
   *]but our free will, whether good or bad, is ENTIRELY at the disposal of God
   *]God sovereignly converts the evil will of his elect into good ones, leading to Salvation;
   *] the same way as he does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever he wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their evil deeds (see Augustine’s “On Grace & Free Will”, Chapter 42).

1. 
   You are assigning a heresy to Augustine which he is not guilty of . In the fourth bullet above, God is punishing the wicked men for their evil deeds, not because he willed them to do evil. They did evil on their own.
   

   This reflects, although implicit, his view on double predestination. There are those whom God has chosen for Salvation, and there are those whom God has reprobated unto eternal punishment. Want a verbatim statement from Augustine on double predestination? Read on… These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT,** and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has** PREDESTINED TO GRACE. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will, His will concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will does not defeat His will. For it would not be done did He not permit it (AND OF COURSE HIS PERMISSION IS NOT UNWILLING, BUT WILLING); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
   (St. Augustine, Enchirid. Chapter 100)
   Now tell me. Is this not a CLEAR (verbatim) statement from Augustine supporting double predestination?

   While it might seem to you to be clear, it is not. In answer to the charge that he preached double predestination, which IS a heresy, we have this:
   But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to.

 

[Procorus]

You are assigning a heresy to Augustine which he is not guilty of. In the fourth bullet above, God is punishing the wicked men for their evil deeds, not because he willed them to do evil. They did evil on their own.

God is punishing the wicked men for their evil deeds - that’s the Augustinian position. But Augustine also taught that God does what he pleases on man’s will, and that every will of man, whether good or bad, is entirely at God’s disposal. Augustine elsewhere said: Who can help trembling at those judgments of God by which He does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever He wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their deeds?
(St. Aug., On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 42 [XXI])
And again,
It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God’s, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God’s will is not fulfilled except it be God’s will.
(St. Augustine, On Predestination of the Saints, Chapter 33)Is it a heresy? No. Is it within the bounds of Orthodoxy? Yes.

 

[Procorus]

While it might seem to you to be clear, it is not. In answer to the charge that he preached double predestination, which IS a heresy, we have this:But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to.

Are those words from Augustine? Can’t we just let Augustine speak for himself on this subject?
These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT,** and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has** PREDESTINED TO GRACE. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will, His will concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will does not defeat His will. For it would not be done did He not permit it (AND OF COURSE HIS PERMISSION IS NOT UNWILLING, BUT WILLING); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
(St. Augustine, Enchirid. Chapter 100)