Tackling Predestination

[Bengoshi]

The question at hand isn’t who has read more of Augustine’s works. The question is what is the Catholic view of double predestination. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that double predestination is a heresy in the Catholic Church. Check it out for yourself. Read the Catholic Encyclopedia article I gave you or maybe better read Part 3 of the Catholic Catechism: Life in Christ.

And by the way, I am not denying the necessity of Grace in Salvation, which was the heresy of the pelegians, Who thought that by works alone was man saved. Nor am I with the Calvinists, who deny that man’s works on earth effect his salvation. The Catholic position is middle ground between these two extremes, Recognizing the need for Grace and Good works in the economy of salvation. No man is predestined to hell. God calls ALL men to himself. Not all answer affirmatively.

By the way, how do you explain away Eph. 2:8-9 (For it is by grace we are saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works , so that no one can boast.)?

It clearly says that our works do not save us, it is by grace. In another verse, it says that “who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began” (2 Tim. 1:9).

Our good works is the result of our salvation by grace. That grace is claimed by faith and good works are the evidence of our faith in Christ. Salvation is monergistic, meaning, an act of God alone. His common grace enables men, even unbelievers to do good works (albeit the intention or motive may still be selfish and sinful), but it is only with His effectual saving grace that our good works become pure and godly.

 

[Bengoshi]

We don’t believe in* irresistible grace*, we believe in infallible grace.
Infallible grace is “grace that always accomplishes it purpose” –nothing more or less. Infallible grace can be resisted, but is not. Infallible grace can fail, but does not. There is no ontological/metaphysical necessity associated with infallible grace.** Irresistible grace**, on the other hand, is “grace that accomplishes it purpose through metaphysical necessity.” With irresistible grace, the will is overrun by the force of grace. It cannot be resisted. The difference between the two is that of necessity and certainty. Infallible grace is certain, but not necessary. Irresistible grace on the other hand, is certain because it is necessary.

For us, Augustinians, due to original sin, the trajectory of the free sinful will is always away from God, for lost in the corruption of original sin, the human mind is no longer able to perceive God as the soul’s greatest good. Yet through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, the mind beholds the infinite majesty of the divine glory and becomes convinced of the truth. Thus convinced, the will freely—and infallibly—submits to God. Again, it is like a buyer and a seller. The buyer may be unwilling to buy at the beginning of the sale, but as the salesman “enlightens” the buyer to the wisdom of the purchase, the buyer becomes freely willing to engage in the transaction. The salesman does not negate the buyer’s freedom in order to close the deal—there is no hypnosis or necessity that “forces” the buyer to buy. The buyer freely chooses to buy because he has now become convinced that it is in his best interest to do so. Perhaps a profane analogy, but God is like the consummate salesman. There is no heart to which he cannot sell his grace.

A lot of Reformed/Calvinist scholars do not like the term “irresistible grace” for being inaccurate. Sproul prefers the term “effectual grace”.Please remember that the term was only employed to make the acrostic TULIP. More for aesthetics than for anything else. Although I really don’t get the difference of “irresistible grace” from “infallible grace” as you discussed–for the result is definitely the same–I am still in agreement with you.

Wayne Grudem defines irresistible grace as:

“It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary, willing choice in responding to the gospel—a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God’s work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain—even though we respond voluntarily.” (Chapter 34, Systematic Theology)

 

[Procorus]

But this is just it. You DON’T know that. Perhaps St Augustine conjectured that there is such a thing as God’s passive will but no, we don’t know that He indeed has one.

It is indeed true that Augustine did not at least explicitly draw a distinction between the two wills of God, but in reading his explanations on the subject matter, it is very obvious that he had 2 divine wills in mind. Consider the following statements from him (all red letters are mine. PP would represent God’s “Passive Precept”, while DD the “Divine Decree”):
*But however strong may be the purposes either of angels or of men, whether of good or bad, whether these purposes fall in with the will(PP) of God or run counter to it, the will (DD) **of the Omnipotent is never defeated; and His will ***never can be evil; because even when it inflicts evil it is just, and what is just is certainly not evil. The omnipotent God, then, whether in mercy He pities whom He will, or in judgment hardens whom He will, is never unjust in what He does, never does anything except of His own free-will, and never [decrees] anything that He does not perform.
~ [St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 102]

These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will (PP) as an instrument for carrying out His will (DD), the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has predestined to punishment, and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has predestined to grace. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will (PP), His will (DD) concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will (PP) does not defeat His will (DD). For it would not be done did He not permit it (and of course His permission is not unwilling, but willing); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
~ [St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 100]

If there is one thing that we also know about God, is that God is a unity. If there is anything that we know about the devil is that he is a scatterer.

That, perhaps, is the reason why Augustine described it as “strange and wonderful”,
For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will (PP), His will (DD) concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will (PP) does not defeat His will (DD). For it would not be done did He not permit it (and of course His permission is not unwilling, but willing); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
~ [St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 100]

This divided heart to me speaks not of God but more of someone who has succumbed to the subtleties of the devil.

God does not have a divided heart.

• God is a unity, and that’s true.
• God passively wills all men to be saved, that’s also true.
• God has decreed to save only some (for if it has been His decree to save all, then all must be saved), and this is also true indeed.

All of this, we must believe to be true disregarding of our inability to reconcile them by our fail human logic. As Augustine puts it,
But why it is not given to all ought not to disturb the believer, who believes that from one all have gone into a condemnation, which undoubtedly is most righteous; so that even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Whence it is plain that it is a great grace for many to be delivered, and to acknowledge in those that are not delivered what would be due to themselves; so that he that glories may glory not in his own merits, which he sees to be equalled in those that are condemned, but in the Lord. But why He delivers one rather than another—“His judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out.” (Romans 11:33) For it is better in this case for us to hear or to say, “O man, who are you that repliest against God?” (Romans 9:20) than to dare to speak as if we could know what He has chosen to be kept secret. Since, moreover, He could not will anything unrighteous.
~ [St. Augustine, On Predestination, Ch. 16]

 

[Procorus]

A lot of Reformed/Calvinist scholars do not like the term “irresistible grace” for being inaccurate. Sproul prefers the term “effectual grace”.Please remember that the term was only employed to make the acrostic TULIP. More for aesthetics than for anything else. Although I really don’t get the difference of “irresistible grace” from “infallible grace” as you discussed–for the result is definitely the same–I am still in agreement with you.

Irresistible Grace, as I understand it, is God’s overpowering of man’s free will so that when the sinner is confronted by the Gospel, he can’t help but respond to it. This seems to me that God constrains people to choose Him, which is against the doctrine of the Church that men comes and should come to Christ freely. If I’m wrong, please correct me.

Infallible Grace, on the other hand, is simply God’s “working out all things” (i.e. the external and internal factors that affects our decisions) to convince the sinner to eventually respond to His call freely.

 

[benedictus2]

My prayers are with you in trying to convince Benedictus2 of the doctrine of reprobation!

She’s so hung up that God is love that she seems to forget all of God’s other attributes.

Ahhh but this is where you so completely do not get it. Which is understandable since you come from the poverty of Calvinistic philosophy.

Listen intently. Love IS NOT JUST an attribute of God. LOVE is what God is. God’s VERY NATURE IS LOVE. You should check out my explanation to **dcastlen50 **then maybe you will understand better.

It is because you do not understand this very, very basic truth, that you get into the kind of erroneous thinking that makes God an evil psychopath.

You can’t even see how totally illogical your position is. But perhaps you do see but because of the error in your basic premises, you can’t reconcile it so you decided to bury your head in the sand and just say “God is supreme and that’s that.”. Which is exactly how the Muslims justifiy the terrible teachings in the Quran. God is great and that’s that.

As a Christian of the Reformed camp, I agree with everything you said. I also already explained in my posts that God’s decision to condemn some people is indeed passive in nature, also called “preterition”. I myself, am infralapsarian. Not all Calivinists are supralapsarian. In fact, a lot of the professors at Reformed Theological Seminary are infralapsarian, such as Dr. Douglas Kelly and Dr. Derek W. H. Thomas.

She also fails to distinguish between “causing” evil and “allowing” evil. Obviously, these are two different concepts. Allowing something to happen does not mean that God is the source or actor of that thing which He allowed. What you call passive will and decreetive will we call “revealed will” and “secret will”. His revealed will are those found in the Scriptures, while His secret will are those things which He did not reveal to us in His Word (Deut. 29:29).

Aah but my friend it is you who do not understand. I know God allows evil. But why does God allow evil? Have you thought about that? Most likely not. You’ve probably lumped that with the catch cry “God is great and everyone shut up”

Read this . Slowly. God allows evil in order to bring out a greater good. So God allows evil on this earth because He is able to bring out a greater good namely the salvation of man. As St Thomas said: O Felix Culpa. Refer again to my previous post to dcastlen50 where I explained this.

But your position says God allows evil to bring about a greater evil, which basically means that God actively wills evil.

As I have said above, ther assumption that His passive will is at war with His active will is absurdity to the max and again, portrays a god divided within himself.

You see there are so many flaws in your reasoning which you have not even thought about. The simple matter of it all is. your doctrine does not stand up to the light of scrutiny.

It has been weighed and found wanting.

God’s activity is only with respect to Hiss willful choosing to pass over some, thereby condemning them as a result; but is passive in such a way that God does not make them do evil, for evil is already the natural inclination of man’s heart (Gen. 6:5). He just lets them be. Hence, they receive justice. Those whom God has elected to salvation, on the other hand, receive mercy. There is no injustice.

My last observation is that Benedictus2 just simply finds it difficult to trust that God’s choices are all good. Since God is the standard of goodness Himself, then we are in no position to judge whether or not God’s choices are evil or wrong. If God wills it, then it is GOOD!

God bless you!

You will be able to convince me if you can show that your explanation for reprobation is reconcilable with what we know about God.

So far, with your seeming indepth knowledge of Sproul’s explanation you have not been able to do that. Either you did not get the limitations of Sprouls explanation or you did not understand Sproul.

Your excuse was that I have to read Sproul. If Sproul is intelligible and convincing YOU (with your qualification as a lawyer) would be able to explain that in this forum yourself as the others have done with their own view points. You have not been able to do that.

You are completely mistaken in your assessment with regards my acceptance that everything that God wills is good. I totally trust that God’s choices are ALL GOOD. You know yourself that it is irreconcilable or you would have been able to come up with an explanation by now.

And this is precisely why I cannot accept predestination to damnation because it is intrinsically evil and so completely irreconcilable with a God who is good and who IS LOVE.

You are saying that what is intrinsically evil is good and expect me to accept that.

You are right, if God wills it it is good. That is why reprobation is not God’s will because God cannot will evil because He is the Sum of all Goodness.

Your position is that the ultimate evil is God’s Choice and God’s will.

You cannot accept that your doctrine is extremely flawed and indefensible or else you would have come up with a convincing answer.

As I said before, if you think my reasoning is flawed then you should be able to rebut.

Your silence on the matter speaks volumes.

So if you are really convinced of your point, then rebut. Ball’s in your court.

 

[benedictus2]

I believe once upon a time I was the original poster.

Let me guess. The arrows started flying and the bullets started shooting so you ducked .

It is calm now because the combatants are on a lunch break.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Procorus

This has certainly happened to Me: When God called me at 33 years of age I was in the middle of my Snooker career. I was a professional Snooker player: I Really loved the Game
I Loved compertition. I wanted God to help me with my Life and the plans that i had made
For my Life. I had been playing for 13 years. It was my Dream it was my Life. I was happy
because i was doing what i really Enjoyed.
When i came to the realisation about Jesus Christ and salvation. I happly took the free Gift
of salvation.
I got myself baptised and started reading the Bible especially the book of John.
I Soon Realised that there was more to this then meets the eye.
I began to realise i had to Turn away from the WORLD and selfish Ambition.
World championship Snooker: It was my ambition to become world champion.
Deny myself take up my cross daily and follow Jesus.
I wanted salvation. but to willingly turn away from Snooker I found was Impossible
But i read Jesus said with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible

I Just decided to carry on with what i was doing and take no notice. After Arguing with God for a few years over this. I told God do as you please I hand my life over to you. I was incapable of packing up snooker and it all seemed unfair to me.
I even tried bargaining with God by saying Look According to your word you are a God of miracles.
My friend John who is a Cripple in a wheelchair suffering with mutable sclerosis.
If You fully heal him Back to normal. I will pack up snooker and do your will fully 24/7 that is a promise. I thought to myself if God dose this i will be fully committed. God did not do as i requested. So i thought i will carry on with snooker. After a few more years went by
My standered went to world class. I had the full self confidence to Win a tournament.
God Knew this because this was what he was waiting for. It was 7 years now since i came to Christ. And really i had not done much serving God only a bit.

Out came the ROD of God. Nasty God severely chastised me. I Just had my 40Th birthday. A thought came into my head. There is a saying Life begins at 40. weeks later i was diagnosed bowel Cancer. I was devastated.
After 2 operations. Radiation treatment+ chemotherapy. I was left with medical problems
That has left me with a Infirmity which i am still living with today!! {I am 52}
I have not Picked my Cue up for the past 10 years. {To me this is a miracle}
Surviving Cancer till today this is another miracle

What i went through was physically and emotionally was very painful. I am very grateful and thank God for putting me through all this. I love God he is all i think about when i wake up to the moment i go to sleep. I have nothing else to live for now I only live for God 24/7 Before snooker was my God. I am a totally changed person.

What a beautiful story!

If anything this goes to show that God is indeed love. He was so patient with you.

What you have written here confirms what I have been saying all along. The good stuff is grace, the bad staff is grace too for grace is whatever will bring us to salvation.

And you are quite wrong about the the nasty god. If god was nasty he would have left you where you are certainly on the way to being completely separated from him but instead He allowed the cancer to work its way through your body to bring you back to him.

The problem with us is pride. We will not kneel until we are forced on our knees.

The cancer was NOT A CHASTISEMENT. It was a wake up call because God knows that were it not for that you would still be on your merry way on the path away from Him.

This also drives home the point I have been making over so many posts. The evil He allows is only so that He can bring a greater good out of it. So you suffer here on earth, but in the end gains your soul.

God does not predestine to damnation. He sends us the trials and tribulation precisely so that He can bring out a greater good out of it, that we may turn to Him and so be saved.

 

[benedictus2]

My prayers are with you in trying to convince Benedictus2 of the doctrine of reprobation!

She’s so hung up that God is love

You are so right there. Because I am so hung up on the truth.

You on the other hand would rather settle for the lie because it is easier.

 

[benedictus2]

Predestination does not take away God’s nature of beingThe Love himself. Paul wrote:
for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. IN LOVE He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved. (Eph. 1:4-6)

**Exactly!! God is love because He predestines to salvation! ** Now, please try to show how God is love if he predestines to damnation.

Again, we can only rightly say that God is unjust in His predestination if God owes us something which obliges Him to save us.

Nope. As I explained before.
It is like this. This sorry being for a god says, you must eat choc chip cookies. However, he is the only one who can give choc chip cookies, which he decides to give to some and not to others. And then he stomps in rage, “I will punish you for not eating choc chip cookies as I commanded and for this reason I will roast you in an open fire while little red evil creatures with horns and tails will poke you with their forks!”

So, explain how this is just.
Almighty yes. Just no.

And another thing, in trying to explain reprobation you seem to have this idea that God switches hats. So god thinks okay, I will predestine to salvation so I will put on my “love” hat. Now I will reprobate so I will put on my “just” hat.

If God is indeed the kind of God that we find in the Bible then as Fr Barron said, He does not go into emotional snits. He is always love, and just in everything He does.

But since all of us, in our natural state as fallen beings, are deserving to be eternally punished in hell (which undoubtedly is most righteous), then even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Thus, Paul wrote:

But procorus. Think of it. When God created us He already knows He was creating fallen human beings. And yet He still continues to create us. So what’s with that?
Please, please, please, turn that over in your heard. If He really is so against, fallen creatures such that He wills that fallen and sinful creatures be damned, then He could have stopped at Adam and Eve or maybe Abraham.

Besides just ponder this. An analogy of your previous post. This diety is sitting there thinking Hmmm I will create and he had Adam and Eve in his had. Then he thought, Hmm but I will let them fall so that they will sin? Furthermore, I will stack the cards so badly against them I will put the serpent in the garden to tempt them into disobedience and then I will punish them. Why? Did it give god pleasure to see them sin. Did it please him to know that all their offspring will be inclined to be disobedient in the same way they were?

Sit and ponder that image. *

What should we say then? Is there injustice with God?

Absolutely not!*

• For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion*. *So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. *(Rom. 9:14-16)

I really suggest you read the beginning of Chapter 9 of the letter to the Romans. It does not support your view in quite the way you think. This is no support at all for damnation.

Furthermore, merely quoting this will not do. You have to explain how this is supposed to show that God is just in reprobating when I have just shown you that it is unjust and goes again the very being of God which IS love.

Not only did God create everything, but He also “works out everything” in conformity with (or to sovereignly accomplish) His eternal decrees:In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according** to the purpose of him who works all things** according to the counsel of his will, (Eph. 1:11)
But this Free Will can never defeat/destroy whatever God has immutably planned, as it is written:
Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail. (Prov. 19:21)

All these things you’ve written is just merely quoting what you have read. It does not in any way answer my questions.

 

[benedictus2]

"It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. (Chapter 34, Systematic Theology)

What does it mean to be regenerated?

 

[shaky]

Sure, they are words of Augustine. There are several quotes in that passage from the Catholic encyclopedia. Here are some more from other sources:
Whoever, then, refuses or resists this gift of the grace of God or is somehow apart from it up to the end of this temporal life….” 185:49, p. 206.
books.google.com/books?id=cJn…efox#PPA206,M1

“What is the drift of my words? This: since we realize the Last Day will come – it is well for us that we know it will come, and it is also well that we do not know when – we must keep our hearts in readiness be leading a good life, so that far from fearing its advent, we may even desire it. For as that day increases the woe of the unfaithful, so it puts an end to that of the faithful. As yet, before it comes, you have the power to decide which class you will belong to; once this will be beyond you. Chose, therefore, while there is time; for what God in His mercy conceals, He in mercy delays."
----FIRST DISCOURSE ON PSALM 36 (EXPOSITION 1 OF PSALM 36). books.google.com/books?q=+%22…G=Search+Books

“He is going to come as a judge, let us not bear the yoke with unbelievers. He is also going to resuscitate the corpses of the dead; let us deserve this transfiguration of the body by a transformation of our minds. He is going to set the bad on his left, the good on his right; LET US CHOOSE OUR PLACE WITH GOOD WORKS.” Sermon 229D: 1 “On the Holy Day of Easter.”

“Though faith, then, obtains justification, as God has also granted to each the measure of faith itself, no human merit precedes the grace of God, but grace itself merits an increase in order that, once increased, it may also merit to be made perfect with the will accompanying, not leading, following along, not preceding.” (Letter 186:10)

Augustine was very prolific. And its hard to make judgement on exactly his meaning from this one quote, which you’ve offered twice. Bottom line, the Catholic church clearly teaches that double predestination is a heresy. All men are called by God, all men have consciences that drive them toward the good and all men have a chance at salvation if they live lives of faith and love. God lives out of time and knows what men will choose, but it is still the man that makes the choice. Augustine was in agreement with Catholic teaching on this, I am sure you will agree.

Hi paul

You say God lives out of time and space and God knows who will Choose.

According to Augustine on this: {Even if God knows before hand who will Choose}. This still leaves Sovereignty to man over his salvation.

If it is up to Man to Choose first then we will be Chosen: Sovereignty Goes to man

We have to be Chosen first. Then we have the ability to Choose salvation.
This way the Sovereignty goes to God.

 

[shaky]

What a beautiful story!

If anything this goes to show that God is indeed love. He was so patient with you.

What you have written here confirms what I have been saying all along. The good stuff is grace, the bad staff is grace too for grace is whatever will bring us to salvation.

And you are quite wrong about the the nasty god. If god was nasty he would have left you where you are certainly on the way to being completely separated from him but instead He allowed the cancer to work its way through your body to bring you back to him.

The problem with us is pride. We will not kneel until we are forced on our knees.

The cancer was NOT A CHASTISEMENT. It was a wake up call because God knows that were it not for that you would still be on your merry way on the path away from Him.

This also drives home the point I have been making over so many posts. The evil He allows is only so that He can bring a greater good out of it. So you suffer here on earth, but in the end gains your soul.

God does not predestine to damnation. He sends us the trials and tribulation precisely so that He can bring out a greater good out of it, that we may turn to Him and so be saved.

Hi Benedictus

I agree with you that God would have been nasty Just to leave me on my merry path away from him and separated from him. when i was fit and young playing snooker. I could not give it up. The cancer was a wake up call. Nasty was the wrong word. But God can be a bit harsh and severe when he is dealing with us. I am left with a bit of a Infirmity and weakness with it all. God is Right when we are weak he becomes strong in us. God has certainly Got my attention.

 

[shaky]

All this is true, but this supports the predestination of the Saints, on which we are in agreement and are not debating. The point of debate is double predestination, where some are predestined for Hell. Nowhere in your quotes above does he say that men are predestined to hell. That is a heresy. All men are born with the opportunity for salvation. Did you read the link I provided above from the Catholic encyclopedia. I found it very, very helpful in sorting through this confusion when someone else pointed me to it…

Hi paul.

I am a bit Confused about SAINTS. what is the difference?

At one pentecostal church i attended years ago; The pastor was preaching we are all Saints.

 

[waxwing]

Hi paul

You say God lives out of time and space and God knows who will Choose.

According to Augustine on this: {Even if God knows before hand who will Choose}. This still leaves Sovereignty to man over his salvation.

If it is up to Man to Choose first then we will be Chosen: Sovereignty Goes to man

We have to be Chosen first. Then we have the ability to Choose salvation.
This way the Sovereignty goes to God.

To me this is one of those subjects where it seems like its just a exercise in semantics more than anything else. Thats not to say the aren’t legitmate points on both the Calvinism and Arminian points of view, just seems like we just go around and around in a circle in these discussions…its also very possible that its all just going over my head

 

[dcastlen50]

To me this is one of those subjects where it seems like its just a exercise in semantics more than anything else. Thats not to say the aren’t legitmate points on both the Calvinism and Arminian points of view, just seems like we just go around and around in a circle in these discussions…its also very possible that its all just going over my head

God bless you Waxwing. I understand your challenge; I as well am not qualified to contribute to this intercourse. But I am intrigued, informed, enlightened and excited by it. I look forward whenever I get an email that another post has been placed. I hope it goes until all the views are exposed. I appreciate the gentlemanly manner that all these intellectuals have displayed. To all you guys Catholics, Prostestants in this Thread:thumbsup:

 

[Bengoshi]

Irresistible Grace, as I understand it, is God’s overpowering of man’s free will so that when the sinner is confronted by the Gospel, he can’t help but respond to it. This seems to me that God constrains people to choose Him, which is against the doctrine of the Church that men comes and should come to Christ freely. If I’m wrong, please correct me.

Infallible Grace, on the other hand, is simply God’s “working out all things” (i.e. the external and internal factors that affects our decisions) to convince the sinner to eventually respond to His call freely.

Irresistible Grace is a phrase that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinners. It is represented by the “I” in the acronym TULIP that is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace. The doctrine is also known as “Effectual Calling,” “Efficacious Grace,” “Efficacious Call of the Spirit,” and “Transformed by the Holy Spirit.” Each of these terms reveals some aspect of what the Bible teaches about the doctrine of irresistible grace. However what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the nature and purpose of the work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinful, spiritually dead men. No matter which name you use to refer to the doctrine of irresistible grace a through study of the Bible will reveal that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches on this important subject.

The reason this doctrine is called “irresistible” grace is because it always results in the intended outcome, the salvation of the person it is given to. It is important to realize that the act of being regenerated or “born again” cannot be separated from the act of believing the Gospel. Ephesians 2:1-10 makes this clear. There is a clear connection between the act of being made alive by God (Ephesians 2:1,5) and the result of being saved by grace. (Ephesians 2:5,8). This is because everything pertaining to salvation, including the faith to believe, is an act of God’s grace. The reason God’s grace is irresistible and efficacious (always bringing forth the desired result) is because God “has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into” His kingdom (Colossians 1:13). Or as Psalm 3:8 puts it, “Salvation belongs to the Lord.”

To understand the doctrine of “Irresistible grace,” it is important to recognize that this is a special grace given only to those God has chosen for salvation (His elect) and is different from what is known as “common grace” which God bestows on both believer and the unbeliever. While there are many aspects of common grace, including life and all that is necessary to sustain it, common grace is what is often referred to as the “outward call of God.” This is God’s revelation of Himself given to all men through the light of creation and their consciences. It also includes the general call of the Gospel that goes out anytime the Gospel message is preached. This call can be resisted and rejected by those that receive it. (Matthew 22:14; Romans 1:18-32). However, God also gives an “inward call” which always results in salvation. This is the call of God that Jesus spoke of in John 6:37-47. The certainty of this inward call is seen in John 6:37: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” John 6:44 confirms this: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.”

A common misconception about the doctrine of irresistible grace is that it implies men are forced to accept Christ and men are dragged kicking and screaming into heaven. Of course neither of these are accurate descriptions of the doctrine of irresistible grace as revealed in the Bible. In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ.

Another misconception concerning this doctrine is that it teaches the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted at all. Yet again that is not what the doctrine teaches because that is not what the Bible teaches. God’s grace can be resisted and the Holy Spirit’s influence can be resisted even by one of the elect. However what the doctrine does correctly recognize is that the Holy Spirit can overcome all such resistance and that He will draw the elect with an irresistible grace that makes them want to come to God and helps them to understand the Gospel so they can and will believe it.

The doctrine of irresistible grace simply recognizes that the Bible teaches God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when He wills to. What God decrees or determines will come to pass always does. This truth is seen throughout Scripture. In Daniel 4:35 we see that “He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand!” Psalm 115:3 declares, “Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” God’s grace in salvation is irresistible because when God sets out to fulfill His sovereign purpose, no person or thing can successfully resist Him.

 

[Bengoshi]

What does it mean to be regenerated?

Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. This is sometimes called “being born again”.

The doctrine of irresistible grace accurately summarizes what the Bible teaches about the nature of saving faith as well as what must happen to overcome man’s depraved nature. Since natural man is dead in his trespasses and sins, it stands to reason that he must be regenerated before he can respond to the outward call of the Gospel. Until that happens man will resist the gospel message and the grace of God; however, once he has been “born again” and has a heart that is now inclined toward God, the grace of God will irresistibly draw Him to put his faith in Christ and be saved. These two acts (regeneration and faith) cannot be separated from one another. They are so closely connected that we often cannot distinguish between them.

 

[Bengoshi]

Hi paul.

I am a bit Confused about SAINTS. what is the difference?

At one pentecostal church i attended years ago; The pastor was preaching we are all Saints.

Saint is just another term for a disciple of Christ. A Christian, a believer. If we notice St. Paul’s letters, he usually starts out his greeting by addressing it “to the saints of…” Of course, he is not writing to the dead but to those who are memebers of the Church. Therefore, as Christians, we are all saints!

 

[shaky]

Yes, I did see that correction when I was about to reply to your other post.

But here you use again “eternity past”. Logically, there is not even such a thing. Eternity means time that is unachievalbe. Once you get into past time, then it has already been achieved.

When I first wrote my post #110 for another thread, I closed it would some sort of a disclaimer as to how this all sits with the idea of the Eternal Now because that has to be taken into consideration csince all God’s decrees happen in that Now while we are in this time/space continuum.

Hi benedictus

We have to take in account that God knows the future. we have got the accounts of the prophets with over 300 prophecies coming true. These prophecies where explained in exact detail. Down to names of people, places names of cities, and what is going to happen in exact detail. These prophecies came about 300 400 500 600 700 800 years later. The prophecies of Isaiah: Of Jesus: His crucifixion. his burial. his resurrection is remarkable: The detail of it. I read in the bible that Jesus was predestined.
Also there are prophecies to be fulfilled and also Revelation to be fulfilled.
So he cant be Just Liveing in the Eternal now

You said somewhere that God is not the cause of Evil.

What i am trying to work out. God created the Garden of Edan and Adam and Eve could Eat freely from the tree of life.
Why would God also put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil there. surely if it was not there evil would not Exist
Also Good is in the forbidden fruit. If Adam and Eve did not Eat forbidden fruit they would have no Knowledge of either good or evil
It would have been a different thing altogether.

Why would it be Gods Plan before Jesus was Born to have something Evil happen to Jesus like Crucifixion. To save us.

I hope when we Live in heaven there will No Forbidden fruit about so we can get thrown out
and lose our salvation.

What does this scripture mean. Isaiah. 47:7 I form the Light, and create darkness, I make Peace, and {CREATE EVIL} I the LORD do all these things.

You said the catholic church does not believe that God Creates Evil.

 

[shaky]

It is not de-creative, it is decree-tive, referring to God’s eternal plans that he has determined to accomplish in eternity past.

The question whether God is just or not in Predestination hangs on the question whether God owes us anything which obliges Him to save us. If God is obliged to save us, then it is right to say that God had been unjust in electing only some and reprobate the rest. But “who has ever first given to Him, and has to be repaid. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things”? (Rom. 11:35).

“What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.” (Rom. 9:14-16)

Hi Procorus

I came Across this Predestination 3 Months Ago on the web: On Google Videos. Predestination is the only way to Heaven: Jim Brown. I have not studied Calvin Yet.
But i Have studied Augustine So i Know where you are coming from.
My Head at the moment is stuck in this Area.

OK God Has a right to Condemn all of us because we are Evil.
But we are BORN that way it is not our fault that we are born that way
To choose Some and give them them Grace to have the ability to have a will to serve him and go to heaven.
To allow the rest to continue as the are with no Grace and no ability to have no will to serve him and go to hell.

Logically to me this does seem unfair and unjust.

The Ones that are saved can say thank you God for everything you have done for me so i can be saved.

But the ones that are not saved will be saying. we were born this way and was not given
anything to give us the ability to be saved. we had no chance in the first place.