Tackling Predestination

[Daughter0fMary]

Respond to me because I am a lifelong Catholic who could not accept predestination the way the Catholic church attempts to teach it. I just can’t.

Hello Joe1972, I would very much like to respond to you on those grounds because I struggled for about three years with the “Catholic teaching” on predestination. And I am a lifelong Catholic who could not accept it. REALLY. (To say such a God IS LOVE, you might as well admit water is dry and white is black!) I also JUST COULDN’T, and I was released from this confusion when I learned that the Church does not require us to believe the predestination I was being taught, and that it is still kind of a hot debate in the church; like St. Francis De Sales versus Saint Augustine. But I don’t want to jump the gun with you; would you mind explaining exactly what the “Church teaching” on predestination is that troubles you so? You may be coming from where I was, who knows??

The problem is this: How can we reconcile the notion of “God is love,” with the notion that a great many of the souls God creates will spend an eternity in hell. Including possibly, ourselves. And to top it off, God is also omniscient. He knew this particular soul was headed for hell before he even created it. Am I being heretical just by saying this? I hope not.

And no, I don’t think you’re being heretical. What you say, “the notion that a great many of the souls God creates WILL spend an eternity in hell,” is NOT taught by the Church. If God made it NECESSARY from the outset that a great many souls would go to hell, He would not be all-loving. The Church in fact teaches us to hope and believe in the possibility of the salvation of every man and woman God ever created. (While at the same time we musn’t believe God forces anyone to love Him and go to heaven.) The Church does allow for the possibility that a great many souls COULD go to hell, but only if they freely chose it for themselves.

 

[Daughter0fMary]

This is correct. You will only achieve heaven if you love God unconditionally . If you “love” him only for the reward of heaven or the threat of hell, you will be condemned because that is not love.

I’m not so sure about that. I might be misunderstanding what you meant, but the Catholic Faith doesn’t teach that we all must have perfect contrition before we die. I don’t think a soul saying, “please don’t send me to hell because I am afraid of it and I will love you if you don’t send me there!” would be sent to hell. I think even a love which comes from fear is, albeit imperfect, love? I should think so.

You’d like it to be that all men are saved but the fact is, not all men want that for themselves. We all get what we ultimately want and deserve…

I agree with most of what you said on your post, but just be careful here because nobody can know what “all men want,” or any man for that matter, except himself. The Church teaches that it may very well be that every man God ever created will ultimately “want” to love God before he dies, whether it be the moment his heart stops beating or not. It’s possible!

 

[diggerdomer]

Hello Joe1972, I would very much like to respond to you on those grounds because I struggled for about three years with the “Catholic teaching” on predestination.

The Catholic Church does not teach predestination.

 

[paul_c]

I’m not so sure about that. I might be misunderstanding what you meant, but the Catholic Faith doesn’t teach that we all must have perfect contrition before we die. I don’t think a soul saying, “please don’t send me to hell because I am afraid of it and I will love you if you don’t send me there!” would be sent to hell. I think even a love which comes from fear is, albeit imperfect, love? I should think so.

Love is doing something without expecting anything in return. Fearing hell is not love. It is a motivator that will push people toward the sacraments and good works, , which give Grace and can lead to love, but fear of hell in itself is clearly not love. What the Church does teach is that to get to heaven you must die in the State of Grace, so you are right that you don’t need to have perfect contrition. But to stay in the state of grace after baptism or the sacrament of reconciliation, we must avoid sin and we must love God and Neighbor.

I agree with most of what you said on your post, but just be careful here because nobody can know what “all men want,” or any man for that matter, except himself. The Church teaches that it may very well be that every man God ever created will ultimately “want” to love God before he dies, whether it be the moment his heart stops beating or not. It’s possible!

The Church prays that every person will want to love God before he/she dies, even with the last beat of their heart. And the Church is also clear that no one knows who will be saved. But the Church does not teach that everyone will be saved. And you know from your own experience that there are people who never give God a second thought and others that actually deny his existence. My argument is against universalism, the thought that everyone will achieve heaven. This leads to complacency - keeping people from cooperating with the spirit for their own salvation - and actually leads to condemnation…

 

[paul_c]

The Catholic Church does not teach predestination.

Careful. This is half true.
The Church teaches that some people are predestined for heaven. Mary being concieved without original sin is a primary example. These exceptional people were put on earth to lead the rest of us to God.

But the Church also teaches that No one is predestined to hell. In that, you are absolutely correct.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi, there seems to be some confusion in your post. The first two lines (which I highlighted in red are in conflict with the third line, which I highlighted in Green:

No, there is no confusion.

The Green line is correct. Those who responded to the Gospel call and perserve in the faith until the end will go to heaven. This is the Catholic position.

The Red lines are demonstrably incorrect. We know that all are called to God. We know this because it can be easily demonstrated that everyone has a conscience calling us to righteousness. We know it because God is just and loves us all and there is no justice in condemning some to hell arbitrarily. And we know it because scripture tells us that Jesus calls all men to himself. Are you denying any of this?

Both statements are correct and biblical. The thing is, you assume that God’s choice is arbitrary. No, it is not. God has a purpose for choosing some unto salvation and passing over others. What does the word ‘elect’ mean anyway? Doesn’t it mean that God CHOSE people? If the saved are the elect–meaning God chose them unto salvation–then it would logically follow that those who are not saved, i.e. those who rejected Christ, were not elected (chosen) by God.

Again, you are confused. Being a Christian demands that we strive for perfection and sinlessness. This is out of love for God, who we do not want to offend by willfully turning away from him in sin. And yes, we are sanctified by God through the sacraments. And yes, we need to cooperate with this sanctification. Sanctification IS required for heaven because we know that nothing sinful will enter heaven. If you recognize that we need to cooperate in the sanctification process, then it should be apparent to you that we need to cooperate with God to get to heaven.

I am not confused. Yes, I agree with you when you say that "Being a Christian demands that we strive for perfection and sinlessness, albeit its impossibility while we are in ths fallen world. Sanctification is not required for heaven but justification is. What about those who immediately died after receiving Christ and putting their faith in Him? they had no time to be gradually sanctified. However, they have already been regenerated and justified by God. So they still go to heaven. You’re the one who ssmes to confuse justification with sanctification. The ordo salutis (order of salvation) is this:

1. Election by God (which happened before the creation of the world)
2. Regeneration by God (born again);
3. Repentance and Conversion by the sinner;
4. Justification by God;
5. Sanctification by God; and
6. Glorification by God.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi,

What will you do if you die and find yourself condemned. Will you dare to lash out at God for making you a reprobate? Or will you accept personal responsiblity for your failings?

I would most probably accept personal responsibility for my failings. We are still responsible for our actions. God does not actively make people reprobate, we already are. He just passes over some and He has good reason for it which we do not know.

 

[Bengoshi]

All men are called to holiness and heaven, whether or not they know Jesus or the Gospel. This is what St. Paul wrote in Romans 2.
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

These verses do not talk about salvation but about judgment. Those who are saved will not receive the same rewards and those who are damned will not receive the same punishment. This is where our works will count. The Bible teaches that the elect will receive different crowns. Jesus pronounced a woe to Korazin and Bethsaida and said that it would even be better for Sodom and Gommorah in the day of judgment.

 

[paul_c]

I would most probably accept personal responsibility for my failings. We are still responsible for our actions. God does not actively make people reprobate, we already are. He just passes over some and He has good reason for it which we do not know.

Now you are getting closer to the Catholic position. We are responsible for our failings. God does predestine some to heaven. And he does not predestine anyone to hell.
The only difference seems to be :

1. you don’t think God calls to all men. I argue that he does because all men have consciences and the scripture clearly states that God came to heal sinners. You have not countered these arguments. As for your argument that the elect are by definition chosen, there clearly some that are predestined to heaven. Like Mary, mother of God, born without original sin. These extraordinary people are God’s instruments to help the rest of us get to heaven.

1. You think that that justification is all that is required for heaven and that sanctification is only to gain awards. To that, I say the obvious. Nothing unholy will enter heaven. Your counter argument about those that die directly after baptism are allowed in heaven is true, but only after being sanctified in Purgatory.

 

[Bengoshi]

Predestination is the topic that brought me to this forum thread. And as I read through it, it is clear to me that this has been a huge stumbling block for thousands of years. Both for the ones trying to grasp it, and for the ones trying to clarify it. Most of the attempts over the years to clarify are extremely long and winding. (Well, you have to break it up into pre-destination for some, but not for the ones that are going downstairs…, etc.)

The problem is this: How can we reconcile the notion of “God is love,” with the notion that a great many of the souls God creates will spend an eternity in hell. Including possibly, ourselves. And to top it off, God is also omniscient. He knew this particular soul was headed for hell before he even created it. Am I being heretical just by saying this? I hope not.

Why spend so much time trying to force a square peg into a round hole? I know I’m going to get kicked for this, but… Show me in the bible where Jesus refutes reincarnation again? Because I’m finding more places where he seems to understand that it’s a reality, as opposed to places where he’s telling people it’s a mistake to believe in it. (“Whom do you say that I am?” “Some say Elijah…” etc.)

If you add reincarnation into the picture, and you accept that souls do not rot in hell forever and ever and there is no future left, but open up to the possiblity that no God who is Love would do that to any one of His creations, then doesn’t the concept of predestination make complete sense? Why only assign just a few “elect” souls to Jesus? Shouldn’t we all be assigned to him?? Think about the possibility that eventually “after every last debt has been paid” you just maybe are allowed out of that prison and given another chance? That there are laws in place to allow every soul to also learn from the mistakes and not just solely to punish eternally forever for them? God becomes a bit more of a loving God to me, when I think about that.

This sure makes the parable of the talents seem less cruel to me. How would you like to be the one who happened to get tossed onto unfertile soil right off the bat? To be given almost no chance at salvation simply because of a roll of the dice? Or worse, because that was God’s actual intention for you? That’s not Love. That’s heartless. There IS justice, but justice without love? What if part of the reason you only received two talents this time is because you squandered the five you got in a prior life? (Yes, I’m talking about karmic reward.)

Please don’t respond to me about my heresy and what awaits me in the afterlife because of it. Respond to me because I am a lifelong Catholic who could not accept predestination the way the Catholic church attempts to teach it. I just can’t. But when I consider the possiblity of reincarnation being a part of the universal law, my heart just melts. Now I have found the God that I can love, a truly just God who’s love makes better sense to me.

All souls are called to Him. And all souls are given the means to come to him on their own terms, taking as long as it takes, of their own free will. And they ALL will. Not just a few lucky ones.

This is what I want to believe. So let the refutations begin.

Shall I start showing you the places in the bible that suggest Jesus understood reincarnation? Just how many times did he tell his disciples that John the Baptist indeed was Elijah?

*And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. *
(Hebrews 9:27-28 ESV)

There is no reincarnation. God does not recycle souls.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c

I’m sorry but you are in error. These versus do indeed talk about heaven and hell. Note that the versus that they follow in Romans 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.

This clearly shows that our actions lead to heaven or hell, not just to some higher place in heaven or lower place in hell. Verses 12-16 from my original post show that this applies to everyone, whether they have heard the law or not because it is written on all mens hearts and they all have consciences to lead them. You know this from personal experience as well as from scripture. There can be no denying it, can there?

 

[Bengoshi]

The Catholic Church does not teach predestination.

Yes, it does. Read Pete Holter’s posts on St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[Bengoshi]

1. you don’t think God calls to all men. I argue that he does because all men have consciences and the scripture clearly states that God came to heal sinners. You have not countered these arguments. As for your argument that the elect are by definition chosen, there clearly some that are predestined to heaven. Like Mary, mother of God, born without original sin. These extraordinary people are God’s instruments to help the rest of us get to heaven.

Some people have calloused consciences. Some just don’t care at all. Just consider this, is God unable to realize His pplans and purposes? Can man thwart the plans of God? If God wants to save me for example, and I reject Christ, doesn’t that mean that God is not sovereign? Wouldn’t that kind of god be inutile and powerless? God is omnipotent. The Bible says that “Many are the plans in a man’s heart but is God’s will that prevails.”

1. You think that that justification is all that is required for heaven and that sanctification is only to gain awards. To that, I say the obvious. Nothing unholy will enter heaven. Your counter argument about those that die directly after baptism are allowed in heaven is true, but only after being sanctified in Purgatory.

Jesus told the thief who repented at the cross “Today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Purgatory is not biblical. It is an invention of men. Christ’s death on the cross is sufficient. No further cleansing in the afterlife is required. “That if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us of ALL our trespasses.”

 

[Bengoshi]

I’m sorry but you are in error. These versus do indeed talk about heaven and hell. Note that the versus that they follow in Romans 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11 There is no partiality with God.

This clearly shows that our actions lead to heaven or hell, not just to some higher place in heaven or lower place in hell. Verses 12-16 from my original post show that this applies to everyone, whether they have heard the law or not because it is written on all mens hearts and they all have consciences to lead them. You know this from personal experience as well as from scripture. There can be no denying it, can there?

So are you saying that there is no more need to evangelize? That those who do not even know Jesus may be saved? That it is possible for people to earn their salvation apart from Christ? Remember that our works are evidence of our faith for ‘faith without works is dead’. Although we are not saved by works but by grace through faith, our works (fruit) will determine whether our faith in God is genuine or not. God will indeed justly repay everyone according to his works, either in heaven or in hell. however, our woks per se will not and cannot save us.

 

[Pitcharan]

So are you saying that there is no more need to evangelize? That those who do not even know Jesus may be saved?

Is it not more than sufficient if we radiate Christ through our lives?

That it is possible for people to earn their salvation apart from Christ?

Nothing is impossible with God Who justifies without favoritism: For God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) (Rom 2:11-15)

Remember that our works are evidence of our faith for ‘faith without works is dead’. Although we are not saved by works but by grace through faith, our works (fruit) will determine whether our faith in God is genuine or not. God will indeed justly repay everyone according to his works, either in heaven or in hell. however, our woks per se will not and cannot save us.

Look around and you will find good works by those who don’t boast of faith and bad works by many who flaunt their faith. We need to ponder WHAT IS FAITH?

 

[paul_c]

Some people have calloused consciences. Some just don’t care at all. Just consider this, is God unable to realize His pplans and purposes? Can man thwart the plans of God? If God wants to save me for example, and I reject Christ, doesn’t that mean that God is not sovereign? Wouldn’t that kind of god be inutile and powerless? God is omnipotent. The Bible says that “Many are the plans in a man’s heart but is God’s will that prevails.”

God is omnipotent and omniscient. He can make his plans succeed while still allowing men free will. Don’t underestimate God.

Jesus told the thief who repented at the cross “Today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Purgatory is not biblical. It is an invention of men. Christ’s death on the cross is sufficient. No further cleansing in the afterlife is required. “That if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us of ALL our trespasses.”

Bengoshi,
There are four errors in your statement:

1. Purgatory IS biblical. In Maccabees they pray for the dead. Those in heaven can’t benefit from prayer and neither can those in hell. Do you pray for the dead?
2. God exists out of time and so is Purgatory. The thief could be cleansed in Purgatory and still be in Paradise on the same day.
3. Nothing unholy will exist in heaven. While your sins may be forgiven, you still need to lose your propensity to sin. And by the way, do you understand that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles and they passed on that authority to the ordained Clergy. This is a sacrament with form and function that must be followed to be valid.
4. While everything that is in the Bible is true, not everything that is true is in the bible. Sola Scriptura is not valid. In fact, its not even Biblical.

 

[paul_c]

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
I’m sorry but you are in error. These versus do indeed talk about heaven and hell. Note that the versus that they follow in Romans 2:

Remember, these are not my words but the words of St. Paul in his letter to the Romans. And he certainly saw value in evangelization, didn’t he?

That those who do not even know Jesus may be saved? That it is possible for people to earn their salvation apart from Christ?

Who are you arguing with here. You are arguing against St Paul and scripture. Keep that in mind. He is clearly saying that all men have the moral law written on their hearts and consciences to guide them. Do you deny any of that? He is not saying that Christ is not critical to salvation. You know better than that, right? Christ is God and he leads all people to truth, even if they don’t recognize the source… You can not be saved without that.

Remember that our works are evidence of our faith for ‘faith without works is dead’. Although we are not saved by works but by grace through faith, our works (fruit) will determine whether our faith in God is genuine or not. God will indeed justly repay everyone according to his works, either in heaven or in hell. however, our woks per se will not and cannot save us.

Works alone will not save you. But neither will faith without works. You know this is Biblical as well since you are quoting James 2 above. You need both to enter heaven.

 

[shaky]

Remember, these are not my words but the words of St. Paul in his letter to the Romans. And he certainly saw value in evangelization, didn’t he?

Who are you arguing with here. You are arguing against St Paul and scripture. Keep that in mind. He is clearly saying that all men have the moral law written on their hearts and consciences to guide them. Do you deny any of that? He is not saying that Christ is not critical to salvation. You know better than that, right? Christ is God and he leads all people to truth, even if they don’t recognize the source… You can not be saved without that.

Works alone will not save you. But neither will faith without works. You know this is Biblical as well since you are quoting James 2 above. You need both to enter heaven.

Hi paul.

Nobody can say they have faith with no works. If somebody says he has faith and knows they need to repent and be baptised they get baptised. If they Sin they need to be sorry for there sin and confess there sin. if they know to do Good deeds they do Good deeds.
If they need to pray they pray. This is faith in Action.

But there is levels of faith and Good works Just as there are levels of works of evil.
What about the least in the kingdom of heaven and the Greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

If 2 people get saved at the same time and eventually died about the same time and one has worked twice as hard as the other and sinned less often then the other.
They will be rewarded differently.
Also if a person is saved and goes flat out for 70 years service to be one of the greatest in the kingdom of heaven and another Gets saved one day and died the next day he would also be one of the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

There are different tallents.

 

[paul_c]

Hi paul.

Nobody can say they have faith with no works. If somebody says he has faith and knows they need to repent and be baptised they get baptised. If they Sin they need to be sorry for there sin and confess there sin. if they know to do Good deeds they do Good deeds.
If they need to pray they pray. This is faith in Action.

But there is levels of faith and Good works Just as there are levels of works of evil.
What about the least in the kingdom of heaven and the Greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

If 2 people get saved at the same time and eventually died about the same time and one has worked twice as hard as the other and sinned less often then the other.
They will be rewarded differently.
Also if a person is saved and goes flat out for 70 years service to be one of the greatest in the kingdom of heaven and another Gets saved one day and died the next day he would also be one of the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

There are different tallents.

I won’t deny the possibility that there are different rewards in heaven and different agonies in hell. But I will argue fully that you are not guaranteed heaven or hell until you die and your life test is complete. You must peresevere to the end…

 

[Bengoshi]

I won’t deny the possibility that there are different rewards in heaven and different agonies in hell. But I will argue fully that you are not guaranteed heaven or hell until you die and your life test is complete. You must peresevere to the end…

Yes, we agree on this. that is why, contrary to what most people think, there are a lot of Calvinists such as Wayne Grudem, R.C. Sproul, and John Piper, who do not subscribe to OSAS the way some people understand it. Eternal Security is hinged on the perseverance of the saints. However, there are some pastors such as Charles Stanley, who would teach that whatever a Christian does does not matter for as long as he accepts Christ as Lord and Savior. This is not entirely true as a person’s faith should manifest itself in a transformed life (good works). I admire Dr. Stanley greatly and he is one of my favorite preachers; but I disagree with him on this point.