Tackling Predestination

[paul_c]

Yes, we agree on this. that is why, contrary to what most people think, there are a lot of Calvinists such as Wayne Grudem, R.C. Sproul, and John Piper, who do not subscribe to OSAS the way some people understand it. Eternal Security is hinged on the perseverance of the saints. However, there are some pastors such as Charles Stanley, who would teach that whatever a Christian does does not matter for as long as he accepts Christ as Lord and Savior. This is not entirely true as a person’s faith should manifest itself in a transformed life (good works). I admire Dr. Stanley greatly and he is one of my favorite preachers; but I disagree with him on this point.

I would imagine we agree on quite alot…and with better understanding , we may yet agree on more. And it is very important that a Christian actually follows Jesus’ example of holiness because nothing unholy will enter heaven. It is very, very hard to understand how any Christian could believe that they will be allowed to enter heaven if they don’t actually live out their faith by loving God and neighbor and avoiding serious sin…

 

[Bengoshi]

God is omnipotent and omniscient. He can make his plans succeed while still allowing men free will. Don’t underestimate God.

I am not underestimating God but in one way or another, God has to have some effect on a person’s will in order to fulfil His plans.

1. Purgatory IS biblical. In Maccabees they pray for the dead. Those in heaven can’t benefit from prayer and neither can those in hell. Do you pray for the dead?

No, we do not pray for the dead. a person’s eternal destiny is determined by his choice to either accept or reject Jesus (which is also by God’s sovereign will) while still living on earth. In the first place, Maccabees is an apocryphal book that is not really canonical, but that is a different topic altogether.

1. God exists out of time and so is Purgatory. The thief could be cleansed in Purgatory and still be in Paradise on the same day.

That is merely an assumption not based on Scripture.

1. Nothing unholy will exist in heaven. While your sins may be forgiven, you still need to lose your propensity to sin. And by the way, do you understand that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles and they passed on that authority to the ordained Clergy. This is a sacrament with form and function that must be followed to be valid.

God has already wiped out our sins as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12). The OT saints did not practice auricular confession in order to be forgiven of their sins. The authority to forgive sins is done by the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Whenever a person repents and accepts Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior as a result of our preaching, a way to forgiveness has already been opened for that person.

1. While everything that is in the Bible is true, not everything that is true is in the bible. Sola Scriptura is not valid. In fact, its not even Biblical.

Of course there are a lot of truths that are not exclusively found in the Bible such as scientific and historical facts. However, only the Bible is 100% reliable and inerrant, being God’s word. A law’s exclusivity does not always need to be explicitly stated in the law itself for it to be considered the only final authority on the matter. Sola Scriptura is a necessary doctrine relied upon by the Protestant Reformers in order to secure the Church from the arbitrariness and grave abuses of discretion of Rome.

 

[Pitcharan]

… Sola Scriptura is a necessary doctrine relied upon by the Protestant Reformers in order to secure the Church from the arbitrariness and grave abuses of discretion of Rome.

Our Lord’s assurance that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His church built on Peter the rock, should be sufficient to dispel all apprehensions*.

• Do read my testimony in this post:forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6975301&postcount=857

 

[Bengoshi]

Our Lord’s assurance that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His church built on Peter the rock, should be sufficient to dispel all apprehensions*.

• Do read my testimony in this post:forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6975301&postcount=857

Do gates move? Jesus meant that as the Church advances the Kingdom of God, no hindrance of the enemy shall prevail against it. Gates do not attack, it is the Church who advances to topple the gates of hell.

 

[Pitcharan]

Do gates move? Jesus meant that as the Church advances the Kingdom of God, no hindrance of the enemy shall prevail against it. Gates do not attack, it is the Church who advances to topple the gates of hell.

We can go on debating on the implied meaning. But the fact remains that our Lord said this in the context of appointing a shepherd to lead His flock; it is obviously an assurance that the enemy cannot manipulate the shepherd appointed by our Lord and His assurance is equally valid for the succession of shepherds starting with St. Peter.

 

[Bengoshi]

We can go on debating on the implied meaning. But the fact remains that our Lord said this in the context of appointing a shepherd to lead His flock; it is obviously an assurance that the enemy cannot manipulate the shepherd appointed by our Lord and His assurance is equally valid for the succession of shepherds starting with St. Peter.

History has shown that as the years go by, the church of Rome has been adding new dogmas and doctrines not originally held by the early church nor by the apostles.

We’re already getting off topic here so you can just go and check out TRUTH ENCOUNTER by Anthony Pezzotta and THE DARK SIDE OF CATHOLICISM by Armando Ang.

 

[paul_c]

History has shown that as the years go by, the church of Rome has been adding new dogmas and doctrines not originally held by the early church nor by the apostles.

We’re already getting off topic here so you can just go and check out TRUTH ENCOUNTER by Anthony Pezzotta and THE DARK SIDE OF CATHOLICISM by Armando Ang.

The church has added no new concepts. It has simply clarified dogma when questions have arisen. You will not be able to identify a single Catholic doctrine that is at odds with Apostolic teaching. (That’s a challenge)…

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
God is omnipotent and omniscient. He can make his plans succeed while still allowing men free will. Don’t underestimate God.

God sees all eternity at once. His plans could easily account for a person’s free will choices when making his plans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c

1. Purgatory IS biblical. In Maccabees they pray for the dead. Those in heaven can’t benefit from prayer and neither can those in hell. Do you pray for the dead?

Why do you say that Maccabees is an apocryphal book. It was always part of the Canon of scripture. How do you know what is Canonical to begin with, having separated yourself from the church authority that compiled the canon…

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
2) God exists out of time and so is Purgatory. The thief could be cleansed in Purgatory and still be in Paradise on the same day.

Not everything is in scripture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
3) Nothing unholy will exist in heaven. While your sins may be forgiven, you still need to lose your propensity to sin. And by the way, do you understand that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the apostles and they passed on that authority to the ordained Clergy. This is a sacrament with form and function that must be followed to be valid.

God did not wipe out your sins. And the Old testament saints certainly practiced auricular confession in order to be forgiven their sins. They confessed their sins publicly and carried out the penance given to them by the priest before being allowed to partake of the sacraments again. St. Ambrose wouldn’t let the emperor have the sacraments until he did a very public penance, for instance. And what is so special about your preaching that allows someones sins to be forgiven? What are your credentials that would give someone confidence that their sins are actually forgiven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
4) While everything that is in the Bible is true, not everything that is true is in the bible. Sola Scriptura is not valid. In fact, its not even Biblical.

Just because you have a bible, doesn’t mean you know how to interpret it. You need Catholic tradition as the key to understand it. And yes, sola Scriptura was necessary for the reformers to have any connection to Christ after they waled away from the church. Your statement that Rome is arbitrary just means you don’t understand Catholicism very well. The Catholic Church only teaches what it has been taught…

 

[twb1621]

I

*I am not underestimating God but in one way or another, God has to have some effect on a person’s will in order to fulfill His plans.

God does not interfere with free will, that is to say the making of the choice itself one makes. To intercede in the after affects after the choice has been made or as we refer to it, to bring good from evil in such events, is most certainly God’s to choose. There is a big difference.

*No, we do not pray for the dead. a person’s eternal destiny is determined by his choice to either accept or reject Jesus (which is also by God’s sovereign will) while still living on earth. In the first place, Maccabees is an apocryphal book that is not really canonical, but that is a different topic altogether.

Scripture proves in many cases those who have moved on to eternal glory remain in the service to God and have interceded throughout the old Testament. Purgatory, or this period of purging or the purification before entering heaven is scriptural existing in neither heaven nor hell but is a preparation for heaven itself. The souls remain among the eternal. Unless one were to doubt the soul is ever existing life eternal, there must be a period before heaven but certainly divided from hell for such purging to be allowed its process, what ever that may be or for however long that may be.

Saints, although in heaven, can certainly intercede upon the will of God, they remain His children in service to Him as such. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead which I have faith that it would not have been His intercession were He taking Lazarus out of heaven to return him to humanity or bring him from eternal damnation if that were his destiny.

As far as apocryphal books are concerned, it would be advisable to look more deeply into the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the evidence provided in regard to their place in scripture. I would also point out that anyone who supports Sola Scriptura by its own principles proves there is absolutely no scriptural support justifying the protestant reformation and without scriptural justification, sola Scriptura, an adopted belief of the “reformation”, can be no more valid even by its own principles.

*That is merely an assumption not based on Scripture.

In all fairness, it should be realized that Jesus Himself pardoned the thief of his sins and proclaimed he would “this day” be in paradise. Whether or not this mercy bestowed by Jesus to the thief was complete reconciliation with cleansed soul upon the thief’s death is irrelevant to any of us as He is God incarnate and who else would certainly have the power to do as He elects in the manner He elects.

*God has already wiped out our sins as far as the east is from the west (Psalm 103:12). The OT saints did not practice auricular confession in order to be forgiven of their sins. The authority to forgive sins is done by the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Whenever a person repents and accepts Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior as a result of our preaching, a way to forgiveness has already been opened for that person.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament and formed the new covenant with His Blood. At Baptism, we are most certainly cleansed of all sin, but that is not a free pass to the sins we fall to beyond Baptism. The other half of the covenant Jesus made with us in His Blood is our end of the covenant. That we are to obey and observe His teachings living our life in Charity and humility in the love of god.

Continued…

 

[twb1621]

I

*Of course there are a lot of truths that are not exclusively found in the Bible such as scientific and historical facts. However, only the Bible is 100% reliable and inerrant, being God’s word. A law’s exclusivity does not always need to be explicitly stated in the law itself for it to be considered the only final authority on the matter. Sola Scriptura is a necessary doctrine relied upon by the Protestant Reformers in order to secure the Church from the arbitrariness and grave abuses of discretion of Rome.

Not as a personal attack, but you have shown a common double standard to Sola Scriptura in that much of the teachings of the Catholic Church believers in Sola Scriptura disqualify claiming them not in scripture literally, yet accept other issues not in scripture to support Sola Scriptura. Please compare the following;

1. The protestant reformation – not supported by scripture
2. The reconciling of the Church by any man or women – not supported by scripture.
3. The establishment of any Church or altered system of beliefs in opposition to or separate from the Church Jesus founded – not supported by scripture.
4. The editing, removal or alteration of content of what had always been recognized as the Inspired Word of God to the discretion of mere men and women as founders of new faiths or the teaching of any system of beliefs edited in any way from the true teachings of the Church Jesus founded and proven through there lineage – not supported by scripture.

Now what is in scripture?

Consider the fact that there is and has always been only one Church, one faith, of one mind and one judgment founded by Christ:

1. Recall Matthew CH16 below and note also that in Matthew CH28, Jesus instructed His apostles to teach them (the Church body) to observe “ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED”, not just selected parts, no exceptions and no conditions removing anyone from any of the directions we are to follow.
2. And we also know that scripture tells us we are not to follow anyone teaching doctrine other than those of the Church He founded. This clearly attests to the fact that anyone who is teaching doctrine different than what His Church teaches, is teaching a false doctrine.
3. That we are directed IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THAT WE ALL SPEAK THE SAME THING, BE OF NO SCHISMS AND BE PERFECT IN THE SAME MIND AND JUDGMENT.
4. That there is only “one body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
5. That at the expression of Satan’s interests, Jesus assured Simon Peter that He (Jesus) prayed to His Father in Heaven that he (Peter) would not fail, and that Peter, being once converted would confirm his (Peter’s) brethren henceforth.
6. That Jesus went as far as to provide warnings for us that not only would there be corruption outside His Church but corruption would at times arise in men within His Church but never did He suggest abandoning the Church He established and that He committed to providing the guidance of the Holy Spirit to always and above all guide the teachings of His true Church, His faithful, in His Bride.
7. That we were to persevere and not abandon her or form a new one or several thousand.
8. That the establishment of the initial hierarchy of that Church is even clearly explained in passages such as 1 Corinthians CH12 below.
9. That Jesus’ position IS the head of that one body in 1 Colossians CH1.
10. That Jesus and only Jesus was and is and always will be the only one to reconcile all things in heaven and on earth to Himself through Himself. Not through any man or women or movement such as the “reformation”. No one else would be empowered to re-establish His Church or found another Church with “revised or altered” doctrines determined acceptable according to his or her own beliefs supported by their personal opinions of what they could believe and what they could not accept.
11. That He suffered His passion, death and resurrection so that we may be presented as holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, provided that we persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. That faith Paul speaks of he identifies as that Church, that faith that he is a minister of and the only Church that has an unbroken lineage for 2000 years.

Who can justify questioning the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church and so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as and when He determines appropriate to Him? Justify that man knows better than God as the reformation suggested and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that?

continued…

 

[twb1621]

I

No where in Scripture does it say the Church Jesus founded would end, become corrupt and fail or be reestablished at any time or by any man before His return. Just the opposite is the truth. God proclaims through scripture everything but these things will occur. refer to the following for instance; 1 Timothy CH3; 15… John CH17; 18… 1 Corinthians CH1; 10… Luke CH22; 31… Matthew CH24; 4… Acts Ch20; 28… Ephesians CH4; 1… 1 Corinthians CH12; “25…. l Colossians CH1; 18…

l Colossians CH1; 18 He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven. 21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.

1 Corinthians CH1; 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment.

Consider deeply, can you justify the principles of Sola Scriptura and the thousands of individual interpretations and independent churches it as led to against scripture itself? Can you credibly claim you speak the same thing, that you are a part of no schismatic movement and that you are perfect in the same mind and same judgment as the teachings of the Church Jesus founded established with the apostles and continued through the apostolic Fathers and their successors have attested to for 2000 years?

Matthew CH16; 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew CH28; 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

John CH16; 12 "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. 13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

These are some of the proclamations Jesus made in His covenant between Him and the Church He founded with His Blood:

The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

To suggest that Jesus, in any way did not keep the covenant with His Church is to accuse Jesus of breaking or going back on His own covenant.

Think to yourself, can anyone credibly question the commitment and ability of our Lord to oversee His Church, to so love her in her devotion and purge her of her corruption as and when He determines appropriate to Him? Does man know better than God and isn’t the existence of so many “Christian” faiths a testament to just that?

…and do you speak the same thing and are you perfect in the same mind as that Church Jesus founded and are you of the same judgment? If you were, you would be Catholic as the lineage of the teachings of Christ through the Catholic Faith has remained consistent throughout time.

 

[shaky]

God sees all eternity at once. His plans could easily account for a person’s free will choices when making his plans.

Why do you say that Maccabees is an apocryphal book. It was always part of the Canon of scripture. How do you know what is Canonical to begin with, having separated yourself from the church authority that compiled the canon…
Not everything is in scripture.

God did not wipe out your sins. And the Old testament saints certainly practiced auricular confession in order to be forgiven their sins. They confessed their sins publicly and carried out the penance given to them by the priest before being allowed to partake of the sacraments again. St. Ambrose wouldn’t let the emperor have the sacraments until he did a very public penance, for instance. And what is so special about your preaching that allows someones sins to be forgiven? What are your credentials that would give someone confidence that their sins are actually forgiven.

Just because you have a bible, doesn’t mean you know how to interpret it. You need Catholic tradition as the key to understand it. And yes, sola Scriptura was necessary for the reformers to have any connection to Christ after they waled away from the church. Your statement that Rome is arbitrary just means you don’t understand Catholicism very well. The Catholic Church only teaches what it has been taught…

Hi paul

I Paul i have no problems confessing Sins publicly. I have told other Christians about sins i have been struggling with. I have even had breakdowns and Tears over Sins.
I find when i pray seriously asking God for forgiveness. I believe God has forgiven me.

I have no problems going to confession in the catholic church. I indeed intend to do So.
What about when catholics Sin and then go to confession a person can die in between that time period.

 

[paul_c]

Hi paul

I Paul i have no problems confessing Sins publicly. I have told other Christians about sins i have been struggling with. I have even had breakdowns and Tears over Sins.
I find when i pray seriously asking God for forgiveness. I believe God has forgiven me.

Perhaps God will forgive you. but you have no way of knowing. If you were a Catholic recieving the sacrament of reconciliation, the priest would extend his hands in blessing over the penitent, and prays the prayer of absolution:

Prayer of Absolution
God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son
has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
Through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

I have no problems going to confession in the catholic church. I indeed intend to do So.

Before you do, you will need to become a Catholic because it is a sacrament. that is available only to people in communion with the Church, with a few exceptions. Read this for the details:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19886

What about when catholics Sin and then go to confession a person can die in between that time period.

Remember, the Catholic Chruch teaches what it has been taught by Christ through the Apostles and administers the life giving sacraments. But it does not judge who goes to heaven or hell. That is up to God. If you are a Catholic, you have been taught that if you die in the state of Grace, you will go to heaven. You have also been taught that if you commit mortal sin, you will fall from grace and if you die in this state, you will be condemned to Hell. So every Catholic knows that they are exposed to condemnation if they don’t confess a mortal sin. Hopefully, they get to confession prior to death. If they do not, they will have to hope for God’s mercy like everyone else.

 

[Bengoshi]

Why do you say that Maccabees is an apocryphal book. It was always part of the Canon of scripture. How do you know what is Canonical to begin with, having separated yourself from the church authority that compiled the canon…
Not everything is in scripture.

As I’ve said, that is a different topic discussed in another thread. Even Catholics call those books by another name, i.e. Deuterocanonicals (meaning 2nd canon). St. Jerome didn’t even consider them as canonical and was only made to include it in his Latin Vulgate.

God did not wipe out your sins.

Didn’t I just quote Scripture on this? “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.”

And the Old testament saints certainly practiced auricular confession in order to be forgiven their sins. They confessed their sins publicly and carried out the penance given to them by the priest before being allowed to partake of the sacraments again. St. Ambrose wouldn’t let the emperor have the sacraments until he did a very public penance, for instance.

Yes, they confessed it publicly, not privately to a priest. Besides, we don’t even need priests anymore since Christ died because He is our High Priest and we now have the priesthood of believers. That is the significance of the tearing of the curtain separating the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle. What we now have are bishops (overseers), pastors, deacons, and elders.

And what is so special about your preaching that allows someones sins to be forgiven? What are your credentials that would give someone confidence that their sins are actually forgiven.

I preach from the Word of God, the Bible. I do not preach from my own wisdom but from God’s.

Just because you have a bible, doesn’t mean you know how to interpret it. You need Catholic tradition as the key to understand it.

Now this is where the arrogance of Rome comes in. It’s as if Rome is saying that the laity do not have sufficient brain power to understand Scripture. Only Scripture is infallible and inerrant. By the way, Protestants also refer to tradition and church history, we just don’t put them on equal footing with Scripture.

And yes, sola Scriptura was necessary for the reformers to have any connection to Christ after they waled away from the church. Your statement that Rome is arbitrary just means you don’t understand Catholicism very well. The Catholic Church only teaches what it has been taught…

History shows that Rome keeps on pronouncing new doctrines as the years go by. Check out the references I cited.

 

[Bengoshi]

Perhaps God will forgive you. but you have no way of knowing…

Remember, the Catholic Chruch teaches what it has been taught by Christ through the Apostles and administers the life giving sacraments. But it does not judge who goes to heaven or hell. That is up to God. If you are a Catholic, you have been taught that if you die in the state of Grace, you will go to heaven. You have also been taught that if you commit mortal sin, you will fall from grace and if you die in this state, you will be condemned to Hell. So every Catholic knows that they are exposed to condemnation if they don’t confess a mortal sin. Hopefully, they get to confession prior to death. If they do not, they will have to hope for God’s mercy like everyone else.

This is the sad part about being Catholic, you’re not even sure of your salvation. How can you effectively serve God or have joy in your heart when at the end of the day, you’re not even sure if you’ll be with God? St. Paul tell us to rejoice because of the hope that we have in Christ. However, everyone commits mortal sins as defined by the RCC, so all Catholics are in danger of going to hell. It may just be a case of a person’s timing of death.

 

[Bengoshi]

Not as a personal attack, but you have shown a common double standard to Sola Scriptura in that much of the teachings of the Catholic Church believers in Sola Scriptura disqualify claiming them not in scripture literally, yet accept other issues not in scripture to support Sola Scriptura. Please compare the following;

1. The protestant reformation – not supported by scripture
2. The reconciling of the Church by any man or women – not supported by scripture.
3. The establishment of any Church or altered system of beliefs in opposition to or separate from the Church Jesus founded – not supported by scripture.
4. The editing, removal or alteration of content of what had always been recognized as the Inspired Word of God to the discretion of mere men and women as founders of new faiths or the teaching of any system of beliefs edited in any way from the true teachings of the Church Jesus founded and proven through there lineage – not supported by scripture.

You seem to have a misconception of Sola Scriptura. It just means that Scripture is the only finally authoritative source of doctrine. As I’ve said, Protestants also rely on tradition and church history for guidance but not in the same breadth as the RCC does.

I do not argue with the passages you cited for they are Scripture. However, some of the stuff you enumerated above are indeed supported by Scripture, such as the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-20).

It is the RCC who added to the Jewish Scripture. The Reformers just wanted to return to the system of the Church during the time of the Acts of the Apostles.

 

[diggerdomer]

Careful. This is half true.
The Church teaches that some people are predestined for heaven. Mary being concieved without original sin is a primary example. These exceptional people were put on earth to lead the rest of us to God.

But the Church also teaches that No one is predestined to hell. In that, you are absolutely correct.

Maybe. Mary’s grace could be interpreted as predestination but need not be so as predestination is commonly understood. If Mary has said “no” (as she was free to do) then her realization of heaven would not have been guaranteed. Right?

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes, it does. Read Pete Holter’s posts on St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas.

I did.

I’m talking about what the Catholic Church teaches, not Pete Holter.

Even Augustin and Aquinas are only properly understood in the context of what the Catholic Church teaches (as I am sure they would agree, if asked).

I stand by my original post. Comments?

 

[diggerdomer]

History has shown that as the years go by, the church of Rome has been adding new dogmas and doctrines not originally held by the early church nor by the apostles.

Right. Like the divinity of Jesus Christ. And the Holy Spirit.

It’s not simply the Church “adding” something as if it didn’t exist before, it’s the Church in its humanity coming to a fuller realization of the divine truth always revealed by God, and being able to more fully express it in human terms.

So what?

 

[Pitcharan]

History has shown that as the years go by, the church of Rome has been adding new dogmas and doctrines not originally held by the early church nor by the apostles.

I am surprised by your sweeping remark, which is so unlike you!!! Are you denying that the whole of salvation history is a gradual revelation of truth? Don’t you realise that this is God’s own perfect way? Are you saying that all truth was revealed in one go? If so, when? Can you elaborate?

We’re already getting off topic here

In fact, only now are we truly in the topic.

so you can just go and check out TRUTH ENCOUNTER by Anthony Pezzotta and THE DARK SIDE OF CATHOLICISM by Armando Ang.

I have peronally encountered truth. Believe me. Read my testimony: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6839524&postcount=35